Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Quite the contrary. The Great Tribulation will effect the whole world. One of the OT types was the Exodus. The Israelites escaped into the wilderness, just as the woman of Rev. 12 and her offspring. Egypt was devastated already, and that devastation only became worse for the ones remaining in it after the deaths most of their men in the Red Sea. But the Israelites in the wilderness, though protected by God, still went through great trials of their own, before the LORD descended in fire and smoke and quake and blowing shofar upon Mount Sinai, and called up his elect into his Presence.

The exact same scenario will take place in the End Times. The Exodus was a type and shadow thereof. God's people will escape a world order that will be collapsing into chaos (as did Egypt), but they still will go through their own wilderness trials before the Lord descends in fire and smoke and quake and blowing shofar, to call up his elect upon heavenly Mount Zion. This is Paul's message to the End Time Church in Hebrews 12:18-28. Whether or not you choose to believe it is up to you.

 

 

Sure, the GT period affects the whole world.  To repeat:  the text only talks about those coming out of the GT. It doesn’t say, or even imply, that those coming out were redeemed when they went into the GT.

And there is many OT passages that clearly state the righteous are hidden with the Lord prior to the period starts.

[OldCoot]

49 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Not a single Bible verse testifies to the second sentence.

Guess you never read Isaiah 26:19-21

and Isaiah 13:3, especially in the Septuagint states that also

Edited November 5, 2018 by OldCoot

[WilliamL]

17 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Not a single Bible verse testifies to the second sentence.

Guess you never read Isaiah 26:19-21

and Isaiah 13:3, especially in the Septuagint states that also

Familiar with both. You read presumptions into them that I don't. The "indignation" of verse 20 is the Tribulation: nothing there says that "It is tribulation that will be directed by God Himself." You say that, the text pointedly does not.

Verse 21, "the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain," speaks of the Wrath of God that immediately follows the resurrection of the dead.

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Quite the contrary. The Great Tribulation will effect the whole world. One of the OT types was the Exodus. The Israelites escaped into the wilderness, just as the woman of Rev. 12 and her offspring. Egypt was devastated already, and that devastation only became worse for the ones remaining in it after the deaths most of their men in the Red Sea. But the Israelites in the wilderness, though protected by God, still went through great trials of their own, before the LORD descended in fire and smoke and quake and blowing shofar upon Mount Sinai, and called up his elect into his Presence.

The exact same scenario will take place in the End Times. The Exodus was a type and shadow thereof. God's people will escape a world order that will be collapsing into chaos (as did Egypt), but they still will go through their own wilderness trials before the Lord descends in fire and smoke and quake and blowing shofar, to call up his elect upon heavenly Mount Zion. This is Paul's message to the End Time Church in Hebrews 12:18-28. Whether or not you choose to believe it is up to you.

Very interesting take.  Going to reflect on that aspect of the Exodus "type" for a while.

[WilliamL]

21 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Very interesting take.  Going to reflect on that aspect of the Exodus "type" for a while.

Used to have the whole thing in a blog, but it got removed. Here is the first part:

Beginning of Tribulation

After “the abomination of desolation” of Jerusalem's “holy place,” “there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world...nor ever shall be [again].” Matt. 24:15, 21 At  that time, “God...judges among the elohim/gods.” Ps. 82:1 <> After the Mosaic Passover sacrifice, “there [was] a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as was not like it before, nor shall be like it again.” Ex. 11:6; 12:29-30  At that time, “against all the elohim/gods of Egypt [the LORD] executed judgment”: he killed their firstborn, thus defiling their temples. 12:12, 29; Num. 33:4 (Pharaoh's son and the Apis bull-calf were both Egyptian gods and firstborns: both were killed in their temple-houses.)

Flight of God's People

“...then let those who are in Judea flee...” Matt. 24:16  “And the Woman fled into the wilderness...” Rev. 12:6 <> The Israelites fled “in haste” from Egypt, into the wilderness.  Ex. 12:31-33f.

The 7 Seals of Revelation: Testing and Purification During and Soon After the Great Tribulation

1st Seal  White horse: false christs bent on conquest. “The Serpent [Satan] spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the Woman...” Rev. 6:1-2; 12:15; Matt. 24:5 <> Early in the Exodus, the god-Pharaoh and his nobles mobilized a massive army to conquer and re-enslave the Israelites. Ex. 14:5ff.; Jasher 81:8ff.

2nd Seal  Red horse: war among nations. “...the earth opened her mouth and swallowed up the flood which the Dragon [Satan] had spewed out...” Rev. 6:3-4; 12:16; Matt. 24:6-7a <> The army of Egypt was destroyed: “The earth swallowed them.” Ex. 15:12

3rd Seal  Black horse: food scarcity and famine. The Woman “has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there for 1260 days.” Rev. 6:5-6; 12:6; Matt. 24:7b <> The Israelites worried about “hunger.” God provided them quail and manna. Ex. 16:2-3f.

4th Seal  Pale horse: pestilence and overall chaos, including earthquakes. Rev. 6:7-8; Matt. 24:7c-d <> The Israelites nearly stoned Moses at Meribah (Strife, Contention), where there was no water to drink. Ex. 17:1f.

5th Seal Martyrdom of some of God's people, who cry out to god to “avenge” them. Rev. 6:9-11; Matt. 24:9-11 <> The sorcery-practicing Amalekites attacked and killed some of the Israelites. God swore eternal vengeance against Amalek. Ex. 17:8f.; Deut. 25:17-19; Jasher 81:52f.

“...the Woman [is] given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place.” Rev. 12:14 <> Shortly before the LORD came down upon Mount Sinai, he told the Israelites: “I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.” Ex. 19:4

Said to the gathered-out End Time virgins: “'Behold, the Bridegroom cometh...' [Soon after,] those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.” Matt. 25:6, 10 <> “And the LORD said to Moses at Mount Sinai, 'Behold, I come to you in the thick cloud...let them [the Israelites] be ready.'” Ex. 19:9,11

6th Seal  Thick darkness, earthquake, God's trumpet sounding. Jesus descends in the clouds; most people are greatly afraid and hide themselves. Rev. 6:12-17; 1 Thes. 4:16; Matt. 24:29-30 <> Thick darkness, earthquake, God's trumpet sounding. The LORD descended upon Mount Sinai in clouds of smoke; most people cowered away from his Presence.  Ex. 19:16f.; 20:18

Christ calls his elect up to him in the clouds, unto the heavenly Mount Zion. Matt. 24:31; 1 Thes. 4:17; Heb. 12:22f. <> The LORD called the elect of Israel up to him on cloud-covered earthly Mount Sinai.  Ex. 24:1, 9

The 144,000 of Israel are sanctified with “the seal of the living God,” and return to work on Earth. Rev. 7:2f; 9:4 <> The 70 elders of Israel were sanctified in God's Presence, then returned to work below. Ex 24:9f.

The Manchild is at this time on God's throne, i.e., in his closest Presence. Rev. 3:21; 12:5 <> Likewise, 'Moses alone came near the LORD.'  Ex. 24:2, 12-13

The Virgin Church, who is being prepared to “serve” before God, also remains in heaven. Matt. 25:1-10; 1 Thes. 4:17; Rev. 7:14-15; etc. <> Joshua, Moses' “assistant/minister; servant” also remained near God's Presence, both on Sinai and later in the provisional Tabernacle.  Ex. 24:13; 33:11

After a period of purification—they “wash their robes”—the Virgin Church begins to “stand before the throne” and “serve” in the heavenly Tabernacle. [See Careers in the Kingdom: Servants of the Priesthood.] They have fully “grow[n] into a holy temple...a dwelling place of God.” “And he who sits on the throne will dwell among them.”  Rev. 7:9, 14-15; Eph. 2:21-22 <> After nearly a year of “testing” of the Israelites, and preparation of the Tabernacle, the Mosaic “Tabernacle was raised up.” “[T]he congregation drew near and stood before the LORD...and the Glory of the LORD filled the Tabernacle”—fulfilling God's promise to “dwell among them.”  Ex. 20:20; 40:17, 34; 29:45-46; Lev. 9:5

7th Seal  There followed a “silence in heaven for about half an hour.” Rev. 8:1 <> In Moses' day, a lull in priestly services ensued after the Glory of God infilled the Tabernacle: they “were not able to enter” it.  Ex. 40:35

[OldCoot]

15 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Very interesting take.  Going to reflect on that aspect of the Exodus "type" for a while.

At first I thought about it, but the type seems to be a repeat with  Israel, as Israel goes thru the GT period and is goes out into the wilderness and is protected (Revelation 12).  And that is the time of Jacob's Trouble per Jeremiah 30 and Israel will be saved out of it.

Most of the wilderness trials brought on Israel the first go around was of their own making. It sure wasn't some sort of testing idea as if they had to prove they were indeed of Israel. They just couldn't quit complaining about things and how God had just brought them out of die. And the ultimate was not believing God about being able to defeat those in Canaan. That cost them a whole generation, except Joshua and Caleb.  

It still goes back to the simple basic question, those that are already redeemed... bought and paid for by Yeshua's death, burial, and resurrection.... what purpose is there of having them go into the GT period?  It borders on insinuating that Yeshua's atonement is not enough and that we have to somehow "prove" that we are worthy.   Kinda like a purgatory idea, but still insulting YHVH that His Son's death is not sufficient.

And as long as we are talking about types in scripture, Yeshua used the analogy of the Jewish wedding which is a magnificent type of Yeshua and His redeemed Bride (Church).  One can also see the types in Yitzhak and Rivkah, Boaz and Ruth, etc. 

When one studies the ancient Jewish marriage, it mirrors the redemption wonderfully.  Now we just wait for the the Father to approve the time for the Son to come for His bride.  

The Betrothal contract was done by Yeshua the night before His death.  He paid the betrothal price with His death.  Just like a Jewish groom, He then returned to His Father's house to prepare the Bridal Chamber (Chupah) for His bride (John 14:2-3).  Next, after the Father approves the time, He will come unannounced and receive her. The Jewish groom does not enter Her house but calls to her from outside.  Just like Yeshua will receive us in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).  Then He takes her back to His Father's place (Isaiah 26:19-21 /  John 14:2-3) and they enter the Chupah to consummate the marriage and the spend 7 days (the 7 years of Daniel 9:27) and then they emerge and come forth so that the Groom can show His bride and the wedding banquet begins.   And the Redeemed bride will reign with a rod of iron on the earth in the kingdom along side Yeshua.  (Revelation 2:26-27)

Those parables about Virgins, sheep and goat judgements, etc, etc, are those on the earth, the events that determine who gets to come to the marriage banquet.  

 

Edited November 6, 2018 by OldCoot
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[Last Daze]

53 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Most of the wilderness trials brought on Israel the first go around was of their own making. It sure wasn't some sort of testing idea as if they had to prove they were indeed of Israel. They just couldn't quit complaining about things and how God had just brought them out of die. And the ultimate was not believing God about being able to defeat those in Canaan. That cost them a whole generation, except Joshua and Caleb.

I don't disagree with that but because of our differences in eschatology, we tend to see the analogy differently.  Also, I tend to see it in more of a summary fashion and less of a detailed parallel.  Not everything will correspond 1:1 between the two.

From a post-trib perspective, I see the meeting on Mt. Sinai (first trumpet of God) as analogous to the return of Jesus (last trumpet of God) followed by the faithful entering the time of rest in the promised land.  There are other things as well but I'm still pondering.

[Last Daze]

16 hours ago, WilliamL said:

3rd Seal  Black horse: food scarcity and famine. The Woman “has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there for 1260 days.” Rev. 6:5-6; 12:6; Matt. 24:7b <> The Israelites worried about “hunger.” God provided them quail and manna. Ex. 16:2-3f.

The third seal takes place in the midst of the time of war when nation rises against nation and kingdom against kingdom.  I've recently come to see the third seal as you do (in a sense). 

• When He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, “Come.” I looked, and behold, a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.  And I heard something like a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not damage the oil and the wine.”  Revelation 6:5-6

I see the end of that passage as God's divine provision to the faithful during those days of food scarcity, and not only just provision, but provision for the purpose of ministry for those willing to walk in it.  The time of war is followed by the great tribulation so the time of food scarcity may well be the last time for believers to let their light shine.  The olive oil keeps the lamps lit as the new covenant (wine) is proclaimed.  To paraphrase the last part in bold, "Do not let the food scarcity impede the ministry of the gospel."

Just a thought.

[OldCoot]

Sounds good and makes for some good sounding sermons but I am not sure it is meant in a spiritualized context.

I still am convinced that the 24 Elders are representative of the redeemed who were caught up. And they are there when Yeshua is handed the scroll with the seals.

So It allows me not to get all bogged down wondering when the actual GT starts or what part is actually the Wrath of God, etc.  And it fits well with the type of the Jewish marriage.

Not that one should use this as a supporting argument, but I find it rather curious that in the New Age / UFO community, they use a lot of ink trying to dispel the pre-trib position and relatively ignore all the other positions.  Makes one think that the pre-trib position puts a burr in Satan’s saddle.  And he is quite knowledgeable when it comes to scripture.  If it causes Satan to squirm, could be the pre-trib argument hits pretty close to the mark.

[WilliamL]

On 11/6/2018 at 7:29 AM, Last Daze said:

The third seal takes place in the midst of the time of war when nation rises against nation and kingdom against kingdom.  I've recently come to see the third seal as you do (in a sense). 

• When He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, “Come.” I looked, and behold, a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.  And I heard something like a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not damage the oil and the wine.”  Revelation 6:5-6

I see the end of that passage as God's divine provision to the faithful during those days of food scarcity, and not only just provision, but provision for the purpose of ministry for those willing to walk in it.  The time of war is followed by the great tribulation so the time of food scarcity may well be the last time for believers to let their light shine.  The olive oil keeps the lamps lit as the new covenant (wine) is proclaimed.  To paraphrase the last part in bold, "Do not let the food scarcity impede the ministry of the gospel."

Just a thought.

Interesting take on the oil and wine, a new one to me. Perhaps a dual meaning, like so many other passages? works for me.

"The time of war is followed by the great tribulation..." Disagree here: all of the first five seals take place during the Trib. Jesus' opening of the seals begins the whole show, just as the LORD at the first Passover commenced the whole show in Moses' day. Which is to say, Divine (but as yet unseen) intervention into earthly affairs is the act that starts the reaction against God's people by God's earthly foes; and that reaction is the Great Tribulation.  The very same types of reaction by mankind during the Exodus, up through the attack by Amalek upon Israel (the fifth seal of that day), will be repeated during the Trib.