What is the difference in the rapture and the second coming?

[Serving]

Hi Kan & Shiloh357,

 

We, the Body of Christ WILL NOT be reigning ON the earth, EVER. There are NO scriptures for this & it is NOT God`s purpose for the Body of Christ.

 

Shiloh, if you would like a soap-box debate on this I would gladly discuss/debate with you. Since we are both pre-tribbers then we will not have that obstacle to deal with. I`m sure we can both learn from each other, bro.

 

Marilyn.

 

Hi sister M ..

 

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

Regards.

[thereselittleflower]

 

These passages are highly symbolic.   They are found in the most symbolic book of the bible.      

 

Christ is reigning now over the kings of the earth just as the apostle John tells us in Rev 1:5.

 

Hi T.L.flower,

 

Of course Christ has been given all authority & indeed has all authority .. but .. He has not yet terminated this ones stewardship over the world :

 

Luke 4

 

5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

 

6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

 

7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

 

8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

 

Notice Christ did not rebuke Satan's boast over his "stewardship" but instead rebuked whom should be worshipped? 

 

Have you ever rented? By law, the owner can not just come in & kick you out, even though he is the owner, no, there must be just cause to terminate the tenancy first .. either that or wait for the lease to expire .. so until the 2nd coming, Satan still rules over his house (earth's kingdoms) which he boasted of above .. then the Son of the Master of the vineyard will return to take back what is & always was .. His.

 

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

 

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

 

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

To rule with a rod of iron means a strong rule with swift retribution for dissent .. now compare to what has really been happening which is easily observable in the world around us these last millennia .. unrestrained lawlessness !! 

 

So what has Christ been doing all this time in regards to the unlawlessness? What of His iron rule? Luckily, scripture shines light on this matter .. a small example :   

 

Isaiah 42:14 I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once.

 

He has been holding His peace .. opposite to ruling with a rod of iron 

 

He has been still .. opposed to ruling with a rod of iron

 

He has been refraining Himself .. opposite to ruling with a rod of iron

 

BUT .. the time will come when :

 

NOW (at the set time to come) will He cry like a travailing woman .. no more holding His peace

 

He will destroy & devour at once .. No longer is "still" .. & .. no more refraining .. now (at the set time to come) comes the rod of iron.

 

It is impossible to say that Christ has "hands on rule" over this lawless world at the moment, haven't you read the Apostles complaint about the wicked thriving even unto his death? How his evil deeds are not punished in this current world .. no .. this is not the rod of iron period .. this is the holding His peace, being still & refraining Himself period .. that is .. Satan's stewardship .. so no, the Lord is not yet reigning over the earth though He is king over ALL creation .. His creation !!

 

So don't overlook the wicked stewards who are ruling & will continue to rule until the return of the Son of the Master of the vineyard to reclaim that which is already His.

 

Regards.

 

 

Hi there.

 

I'm glad we agree that Christ has been given all authority and has all authority.

 

I find your next statement to be a curious along with its scriptural basis.

 

You are using the temptation in the wilderness to support your position that the devil is still in control of this world, that Jesus is not.

 

Yet this very encounter was before Jesus started his ministry as savior of the world.   He had to be tempted and, unlike Adam, not sin.      The scriptures call Jesus the New Adam and they do so for a reason.   For what Adam did in the fall by disobedience, Jesus undid through his obedience.  Until that happened, yes satan still had the same power over the world he had before.  So I would not expect to see any rebuke of the nature you want to find there for the plain language of Rev 1:5 to be true -  Jesus reigns over the kings of the earth now.

 

And again,  Revelation is the most symbolic book of the bible, its language is symbolilc, not literal.  These passages in Revelation are symbolic language.    The book is an apocalyptic writing in the apocalyptic genre and so must be understood to be language used symbolically, not literally.   There is no literal rod of iron. 

 

Now you might say, 'Wait a minute, you're saying that the passage I just used can't be understood in a literal sense, but you just said the verse in chapter one is plain language - either the book of Revelation is symbollic or its not!"

 

Well, the answer to that is this -  the portion I quoted from in Rev 1:5 is a preamble and not part of the apocalyptic writing in the book.  It is an introduction to the writing and thus is interpreted with that understanding. But when John begins to relate the "vision," that is when we enter fully into  the apocalyptic nature of this book which continues until the very end, and everything from that point is highly symbolic.

 

 

In regards to Christ's activities now,  Christ is reigning over the kings of the earth now in the present, not a "now" that is in the future.  I think I already provided the examination of the original words in Greek.   We are a reigning priesthood now.

He is siting at the right hand of God.

 

Mark 16:19

So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

 

 

This phrase is a  traditionally figurative phrase for a position of power and authority exercised by the one so seated, in the present . . the position of a ruler as He rules exercising His authority as ruler in the present . . 

Jesus is not sitting at the right hand of God just twiddling His thumbs waiting for His chance to rule the Kings of the Earth . . 

John tells us He is ruling the Kings of the Earth right now . . and was doing so when John penned those words in Revelation 1

 

And his enemies are being put under his feet.

A Ruler rules while putting His enemies under His feet . . in fact, that is a sign that a ruler is ruling . . It denotes the power and authority to do so . . 

Edited July 12, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[Serving]

 

 

These passages are highly symbolic.   They are found in the most symbolic book of the bible.      

 

Christ is reigning now over the kings of the earth just as the apostle John tells us in Rev 1:5.

 

Hi T.L.flower,

 

Of course Christ has been given all authority & indeed has all authority .. but .. He has not yet terminated this ones stewardship over the world :

 

Luke 4

 

5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

 

6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

 

7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

 

8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

 

Notice Christ did not rebuke Satan's boast over his "stewardship" but instead rebuked whom should be worshipped? 

 

Have you ever rented? By law, the owner can not just come in & kick you out, even though he is the owner, no, there must be just cause to terminate the tenancy first .. either that or wait for the lease to expire .. so until the 2nd coming, Satan still rules over his house (earth's kingdoms) which he boasted of above .. then the Son of the Master of the vineyard will return to take back what is & always was .. His.

 

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

 

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

 

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

To rule with a rod of iron means a strong rule with swift retribution for dissent .. now compare to what has really been happening which is easily observable in the world around us these last millennia .. unrestrained lawlessness !! 

 

So what has Christ been doing all this time in regards to the unlawlessness? What of His iron rule? Luckily, scripture shines light on this matter .. a small example :   

 

Isaiah 42:14 I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once.

 

He has been holding His peace .. opposite to ruling with a rod of iron 

 

He has been still .. opposed to ruling with a rod of iron

 

He has been refraining Himself .. opposite to ruling with a rod of iron

 

BUT .. the time will come when :

 

NOW (at the set time to come) will He cry like a travailing woman .. no more holding His peace

 

He will destroy & devour at once .. No longer is "still" .. & .. no more refraining .. now (at the set time to come) comes the rod of iron.

 

It is impossible to say that Christ has "hands on rule" over this lawless world at the moment, haven't you read the Apostles complaint about the wicked thriving even unto his death? How his evil deeds are not punished in this current world .. no .. this is not the rod of iron period .. this is the holding His peace, being still & refraining Himself period .. that is .. Satan's stewardship .. so no, the Lord is not yet reigning over the earth though He is king over ALL creation .. His creation !!

 

So don't overlook the wicked stewards who are ruling & will continue to rule until the return of the Son of the Master of the vineyard to reclaim that which is already His.

 

Regards.

 

 

Hi there.

 

I'm glad we agree that Christ has been given all authority and has all authority.

 

I find your next statement to be a curious along with its scriptural basis.

 

You are using the temptation in the wilderness to support your position that the devil is still in control of this world, that Jesus is not.

 

Yet this very encounter was before Jesus started his ministry as savior of the world.   He had to be tempted and, unlike Adam, not sin.      The scriptures call Jesus the New Adam and they do so for a reason.   For what Adam did in the fall by disobedience, Jesus undid through his obedience.  Until that happened, yes satan still had the same power over the world he had before.  So I would not expect to see any rebuke of the nature you want to find there for the plain language of Rev 1:5 to be true -  Jesus reigns over the kings of the earth now.

 

And again,  Revelation is the most symbolic book of the bible, its language is symbolilc, not literal.  These passages in Revelation are symbolic language.    The book is an apocalyptic writing in the apocalyptic genre and so must be understood to be language used symbolically, not literally.   There is no literal rod of iron. 

 

Now you might say, 'Wait a minute, you're saying that the passage I just used can't be understood in a literal sense, but you just said the verse in chapter one is plain language - either the book of Revelation is symbollic or its not!"

 

Well, the answer to that is this -  the portion I quoted from in Rev 1:5 is a preamble and not part of the apocalyptic writing in the book.  It is an introduction to the writing and thus is interpreted with that understanding. But when John begins to relate the "vision," that is when we enter fully into  the apocalyptic nature of this book which continues until the very end, and everything from that point is highly symbolic.

 

 

Hi T.L.flower,

 

Yes we agree on point #1 .. I don't think anyone holding the same position as I do would disagree with that, I would be shocked if they did !!

 

Think about this .. the 10 kings give their kingdom to the beast .. remember that Satan also gives the beast great power & authority .. think about that .. HOW has Satan this authority to give if he were not ruling?

 

Simply .. he could not !!

 

Thus it becomes evident that Satan, even up until that near future event, which has obviously not yet come yet (mark of the beast etc) .. is still ruling over the kingdoms of the world !! 

 

But lets never forget one very important thing .. Satan is still only ruling within set parameters set by God Himself .. he has lines he can not cross even though he is ruling at the moment .. just like a renter has conditional reign over his what he can & can not do in said house .. almost the same concept at play here .. so again, God is still in control even though the wicked vinedressers are still ruling .. they do not have absolute free reign but reign within set parameters set by God Himself UNTIL the Son returns to reclaim what is & always was .. His.

 

Regards.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Fresco Joe,
 
Thank you for those scriptures.

`And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.`

 

However these are just the `beheaded ones,` and not the Body of Christ.

 

Marilyn. 

 

[Marilyn C]

 

Hi Kan & Shiloh357,

 

We, the Body of Christ WILL NOT be reigning ON the earth, EVER. There are NO scriptures for this & it is NOT God`s purpose for the Body of Christ.

 

Shiloh, if you would like a soap-box debate on this I would gladly discuss/debate with you. Since we are both pre-tribbers then we will not have that obstacle to deal with. I`m sure we can both learn from each other, bro.

 

Marilyn.

 

Hi sister M ..

 

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

Regards.

 

Hi Serving,

 

I do appreciate a lot of you comments, however had you realised that the Greek word `epi,` means `over or on.` Thus we need to look at all the scriptures pertaining to God`s purpose for the Body of Christ to see where they will actually rule & reign.

 

Marilyn.

[FresnoJoe]

`And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.`

 

However these are just the `beheaded ones,` and not the Body of Christ.

 

 

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

[Marilyn C]

 

 

`And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.`

 

However these are just the `beheaded ones,` and not the Body of Christ.

 

 

 

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

Hi Fresno Joe,

 

Thank you for your comments. I see what you believe, as in `first` in number, whereas I believe `first` is meaning `type.` The first (type) resurrection is to life & the second (type) resurrection to death.

 

Note also that we are `kingpriests,` whereas these people are `priests.` Only the Body of Christ is of the kingpriestly order  because it has the highest authority & responsibility. Other realms have the offices of kings & priests separate.

 

Blessings, bro. Marilyn.

[FresnoJoe]

`And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.`

 

However these are just the `beheaded ones,` and not the Body of Christ.

 

 

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

Thank you for your comments. I see what you believe, as in `first` in number, whereas I believe `first` is meaning `type.` The first (type) resurrection is to life & the second (type) resurrection to death.

 

Note also that we are `kingpriests,` whereas these people are `priests.` Only the Body of Christ is of the kingpriestly order  because it has the highest authority & responsibility. Other realms have the offices of kings & priests separate.

 

 

 

Beloved, I Believe The First Resurrection Is Mentioned Here

 

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

 

And Here

 

In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack. The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. Zephaniah 3:16-17

 

And I Believe

 

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, Jude 1:14

 

We Are Seen Here

 

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Revelation 19:14

[Sister]

And in regards to the earthly setup of a kingdom, sequence is important. For example it may say that the saints reign on earth, true, but when? At the end of the thousand years when the new Jerusalem comes down from heaven or during the 1000 years that Satan has no one to tempt because they are all dead? - Someone pointed out from scripture that the wicked will be destroyed when Christ returns. 

 

Hi Kan

 

You are missing something very important!

When Christ returns he will lock Satan up for 1000 years.

 

 Revelation 20:2   And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

 

 Revelation 20:3   And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

There are still nations about.  Survivors.

 

Isaiah 2:2   And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

 

There are nations still about after the 2nd Coming.

 

 Isaiah 2:4   And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

 

A thousand years of peace because the enemy is locked up for a thousand years.

True, but if we stay on earth and not in heaven, (as Jesus promised saying "that where I am you may be also" - in heaven and not on earth), then there is nothing here on earth for us but rubble, seeing that the earth is not renewed until after the 1000 years?

 

  Isaiah 61:4   And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

This is in the kingdom area only - Israel's new boundaries.

 

Babylon, will never return  (the system)

 

Isaiah 13:19   And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

Isaiah 13:20   It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

Isaiah 13:21   But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.

 

 

 Jeremiah 50:39   Therefore the wild beasts of the desert with the wild beasts of the islands shall dwell there, and the owls shall dwell therein: and it shall be no more inhabited for ever; neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation.

 Jeremiah 50:40   As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the LORD; so shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein.

 

Only Israel will be restored.  Her ruins will be cleaned up, because there is going to be a people there inhabiting (Israel)

Regarding the earth, Babylon always ruled from her cities.  The cities will become piles of rubble.  Christ will destroy everything "material" that man has made with his hands.

 

In time (during the millennium) grass and trees will grow over all the ruins of the cities, and it will become a wilderness for wild animals to live.  The reason why the animals are living there is because God is going to make man start again outside of the cities.  The earthquake will cause the earth's landscape to change.  There will be water in the places where it was once desert.  The old cities will be "out of bounds". 

 

Another thing I'd like to point out is that Satan's demons will hang out there, because they will not be locked up with Satan, and they will not be allowed to meddle with man.  They are in the off-limits territory awaiting their judgement at the end of the 1000 year reign.

 

There is so much to learn Kan.

 

 

There are a whole lot of events that people have included, post and prior to the return of Christ, that it is impossible to find agreement. This cannot be the fault of scripture can it? I have heard about 7 different theories on the resurrection, and countless versions of the rap and trib.

 

 

There is no fault in scriptre, the fault is in the reader brother.  Keep searching, there is so much more that God wants to show us.

 

 Isaiah 43:18   Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.

  Isaiah 43:19   Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

  Isaiah 43:20   The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.

  Isaiah 43:21   This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.

[Kan]

Fifty different flavors to choose from?

 

You'll notice that some religions have subdivided hell into different stages, subdivided heaven into different stages, of waiting and paradise and so forth, subdivisions in the times before the advent of Christ, and subdivisions after those events. That's at least 15 events I have heard of.

 

So instead of a simple end of the world, with the return of Christ, we have people being zapped up without warning, spirits coming down and climbing into their buried bodies, others into living bodies that have been resurrected, there are bodies and spirits returning with Christ, so there are spirits and bodies swapping, separating, passing each other, going in opposite directions, putting on flesh, shedding flesh, getting bodies, losing bodies, improving bodies, turning into ghosts, staying on earth, leaving earth, getting caught up into heaven, into the air to meet the Lord, roaming the earth as helpful spirits, reincarnating, living in other forms...it's a bedlam. 

 

And to add to this confusion we end up having dozens of ways that the prophecies are applied, each to suit their own flavor.

This is not characteristic of the true church is it? which according to Revelation 19, has the "Spirit of Prophecy" - it has a God given understanding of the prophecies. There must be one agreeable truth among them.

Surely God is not the author of confusion?

 

So in fairness to the OP, could we discuss if there are any texts which can only be applied to the rapture and not to the return of Christ? At least we can find harmony on this one point.