What is the difference in the rapture and the second coming?

[Ezra]

Whether we reign on the earth or over the earth its unrealistic that we will not have access to our subjects that we rule and judge. I believe the saints rule from the heavenly Jerusalem, because scripturally our home is in heaven. Yet there is also the "camp of the saints" by Jerusalem according to Rev 20. Its more likely that we will have access to both the heavenly Jerusalem and the earthly Jerusalem.

This is the proper way to understand how the saints will live and reign with Christ. God has given us a very limited view of eternity because we are still sinful and mortal. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. (1 Cor 2:9).

[FresnoJoe]

Hear this message from the LORD, all you who tremble at his words: "Your own people hate you and throw you out for being loyal to my name. 'Let the LORD be honored!' they scoff. 'Be joyful in him!' But they will be put to shame. Isaiah 66:5 (NLT)

 

~

 

Just because the inhabitants of earth are in rebellion to that rule....

it doesn't mean Christ and the Church are not reigning now....

It means Christ's enemies are still being put....

under his feet while he reigns....

 

~

 

Beloved, Then

 

And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Genesis 6:5

 

And Now

 

And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luke 17:26-27

 

And

 

And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. Luke 17:23-24

 

Then

 

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: Luke 1:32

 

And Forever

 

And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Luke 1:33

 

And The Church

 

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 1 Corinthians 11:3

 

As I See It

[Serving]

 

Nice to meet you as well Serving,

 

Yes, our Lord is wonderful!! Amen!!  The God of Restoration!!

 

I would like to post Isaiah 62 in regards to our conversation:

 

Isaiah Chapter 62 Next >>

Viewing the Standard King James Version. Switch to the 1611 KJV Isaiah Chapter 62 or view a Isaiah 62 parallel comparison.

 

1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.

 

2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

 

3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.

 

4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.

 

5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

 

6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,

 

7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

 

8 The LORD hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured:

 

9 But they that have gathered it shall eat it, and praise the LORD; and they that have brought it together shall drink it in the courts of my holiness.

 

10 Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people.

 

11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

 

12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

 

 

God Bless You in Christ Our Lord

 

Hi Nicole,

 

Isn't it just so plain & clear !! Isaiah is one of my very favourites, so jam packed full of jewels !!

 

Besides the obvious concerning Israel of which v4 is very telling indeed .. & besides .. er .. the rest of the verses Lol .. v11 is telling too .. "His reward is with Him, and His work before Him" .. obviously that "work" takes place during the millennium of which you probably understand too .. which in itself has many implications relevant to our stance .. so PTL (praise the Lord) !!

 

P.S >> Here is one God "revealed" to me about 6 years ago now .. hope you enjoy it as much as I did when I came across it ..

 

Isaiah 30

 

19 For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem: thou shalt weep no more: he will be very gracious unto thee at the voice of thy cry; when he shall hear it, he will answer thee.

 

20 And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:

 

21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

 

 

Now "thine eyes shall see thy teachers" can be taken two ways so I won't harp on it .. but v21 however is much plainer .. that my dear sister without question is a resurrected saint guiding an Israelite during the millennium .. notice the ears shall "hear a word behind thee" .. such language speaks of a voice out of "thin air" as it were  .. (I believe it is reference to when an Israelite ventures out into the world beyond the kingdom borders when ministering that this type of guidance kicks in)

 

Anyway, glad we agree on this subject.

 

Blessings & regards.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

 

 

 

Hi Kan & Shiloh357,

 

We, the Body of Christ WILL NOT be reigning ON the earth, EVER. There are NO scriptures for this & it is NOT God`s purpose for the Body of Christ.

 

Shiloh, if you would like a soap-box debate on this I would gladly discuss/debate with you. Since we are both pre-tribbers then we will not have that obstacle to deal with. I`m sure we can both learn from each other, bro.

 

Marilyn.

 

Rev 2

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

 

Its the sinful nations that Jesus will rule over, and faithful Christians will have power over.  Where do you think this will occur?

 

What "world" shall the saints judge in the future:

1 corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

 

Hi Argosy,

 

Good scriptures there telling us what the Body of Christ will do, BUT it does not say where they are doing this. We need to know God`s purpose for the Body of Christ & then that will bring clarity.

 

Note - the Queen of England has power `over` Australia & how we govern, but she (& the power she represents) does not live in Australia.

 

Marilyn.

 

 

Whether we reign on the earth or over the earth its unrealistic that we will not have access to our subjects that we rule and judge.  I believe the saints rule from the heavenly Jerusalem, because scripturally our home is in heaven.  Yet there is also the "camp of the saints" by Jerusalem according to Rev 20. Its more likely that we will have access to both the heavenly Jerusalem and the earthly Jerusalem.

 

Hi Argosy,

 

I do agree that we will have access to the different realms (subjects that we rule & judge) however where does it say `scripturally that our home` is the New Jerusalem?

 

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

Jesus did not become the ruler of the kings of the earth at his resurrection.    Jesus' reign over the kings of the earth began in Genesis, as Jesus has always reigned in that sense.   The Millennium is a prophetic earthly reign, where Jesus will physically reign on the earth.

Hi Shiloh357,

 

Just clarifying here bro. Do you mean that Jesus will physically be walking round the earth, ruling on planet earth in Jerusalem & not from the third heaven, in the millennium?

 

Marilyn.

[Guest shiloh357]

Jesus' eternal reign over the earth since Genesis has nothing to do with the millennial reign in Revelation 20.   It doesn't mean that Revelation is symbolic.   That is not how we determine symbolism.  Symbolism is determined in the internal textual indicators in a given text that demand that we recognize symbolic devices employed by the author. You are trying to arbitrarily assign symbolism and you simply have no leg to stand on.   Revelation does make use of symbolism, but not everything in Revelation is symbolic.

 

Littleflower, the inherent flaw in your argument is that you haven't really proven that, "1,000 years" is symbolic and your last post also doesn't actually accomplish anything but restate your subjective assumptions.  You are still operating in the realm of assumption, not biblical evidence.

 

Contrary to what you have said, we have NOT seen that the apocalyptic nature of the book of Revelation makes "1,000 years" highly symbolic.  You have provided no textual evidence to support that claim.  All you have done is repeat that claim over and over and over, as if saying it enough times will magically make it true.   Textual claims demand textual evidence and you have NONE. 

 

Here is something worth pointing out. Years are NEVER used figuratively in Revelation.   The 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation are not symbolic.  The term, "1,000 years"  is used six times in Revelation 20 and not one time is there any symbolism attached to any use of them.   You simply cannot produce one example of symbolism.

 

You now argue that that there is no evidence that Jesus is physically reigning on the earth in Rev. 20:4.   The first and really glaring error in that argument is the assumption that our belief in the Millennium is based entirely on Rev. 20:4.   You failed to read on down to vv. 8,9.   They tell us what happens after Satan is released.   He is then free to deceive the nations and they encompass the camp of the saints ON THE EARTH!!    Wow!!  The saints  are on  the earth, the same ones who have the thrones in vv. 1-3!!   How about that!!!   The saints who are reigning on the earth are surrounded by the armies of the nations meant to wipe out the Kingdom and God destroys them instantly by fire.   That is a literal event that has no symbolic imagery at all.

 

The second glaring error you make is that the OT speaks of the Messianic Kingdom on the earth, but does not use our more modern terminology like the word, "Millennium."   The millennial reign is an OT teaching and the only contribution the book of Revelation makes to that teaching is its length of time.   Scriptures that tell us about the characteristics of the Messianic or millennial kingdom are Isa. 2:1-2; 11: 6-9: 67:17-25 and Micah 4:1-5.   These speak of the coming  kingdom and cannot speak of the New Heavens and New Earth because they mention a temple and there is no temple in the New Heavens and New Earth and there is nothing about these descriptions of the Kingdom, or conditions of life on earth  that characterize any time period in history, much less the present.   So these Scriptures are speaking to a kingdom on earth that is still future to us and will exist on this earth.

 

Furthermore Isaiah 9: 6-7 also describe an earthly kingdom where Jesus will reign on David's throne.  David's throne is always on earth, never in heaven.   David's throne is the Messianic throne that Jesus MUST sit upon on the earth to fulfill God's promise to Israel in Isa. 9:6-7 and in Psa. 2:6-8.   These are Messianic prophecies that must be fulfilled and prophecy is ALWAYS fulfilled literally.   It is never fulfilled symbolically.

 

So while Rev. 20:4 doesn't mention the presence of Jesus on earth, the same earthly Messianic Kingdom is prophesied numerous times and never symbolically by the OT prophets.   So...  Your symbolism argument doesn't hold any water.   In fact, you are reading symbolism into a verse that has no symbolism.  If someone is guilt of eisegesis, it is YOU not me.  

 

Yes, Jesus' kingdom is not of this world.  No argument there.   But all that means is that Jesus kingdom is not derived from this earth.  Jesus Kingdom can be manifest IN the earth while not being OF the world.   So that really doesn't help you.    Jesus' Kingdom does not originate from any place on the this earth, but He will return and reign on the earth.  The heavenly Kingdom will at one point, be manifested on the earth.

 

Yes, Jesus' reign over place does not necessitate that he be physically present.   I agree with that.   But that is not what is being argued.  Jesus doesn't have to be on the earth to rule over it.   But the Bible says He will be here physically on the earth ruling the world from a restored Israel and from the throne of David.    So regardless of whether you think it is necessary, the Bible says it will happen. Having said that it should be pointed out that God made some earthly promises to Israel that have to be fulfilled and have not been fulfilled and Jesus' reigning on David's throne is one of those promises.  That has to happen on the earth because David's throne is always mentioned as being on the earth.  So Jesus, during the millennium will have two concurrent reigns.    Jesus is still reigning over the kings of the earth as the sovereign Master of the universe, but he is, at the same time He is reigning as Israel's promised Messiah who is promised to sit upon David's throne and reigning upon the earth from a restored Israel.

 

At the end of the day you have provided nothing to prove a symbolic use of "1,000 years," or any symbolic indicators in connection with the binding of Satan.   All you have provided is more sloppy theology and empty, unproven claims that have no evidentiary character whatsoever.  

[Kan]

The Bible is consistent hermetically and by the rules of the English language.

 

"Hermetically" is a sound English language practice by all means. It applies to reading poetry, sciences and biographies etc.

 

Revelation 19, the previous chapter makes it clear that there will be no flesh alive after Christ picks up the saints and takes them to heaven, to reign with Him, not on earth.

Only after a 1000 years does Heaven come down to earth, with the saints.

 

Then the unrighteous dead are raised up - this is the second resurrection, the first is for the saints, the second for the wicked.

 

There is a judgment, and after the wicked are destroyed,

 

Then the earth is burned up and renewed, then the gates of the New Jerusalem are opened and left open.

 

The trouble is that these doctrines are supported by a whole lot of other false doctrines, like the idea that Israel will be restored. This is not talking about Jews or Jerusalem, it's talking about the real Israel of God - all those who serve Him by faith, are the real children of Abraham.

Israel was promised restoration, conditionally, and the same condition applies today - faith, not Jews, not Jerusalem or a new temple, not global politics and certainly not 'charity events' for political Israel.

 

Israel as a chosen political nation, ceased at the end of the 490 years as predicted. The Gospel so long held back by them, was taken to the Gentiles, and when that time is up, then the end will come. But literal Israel has nothing to do with the conditional promises given of old. They are gone, they had their time as God designated. 

God is no longer in charge of a nation in particular, that is over.

 

Where are the faithful? Where they have always been, not in a single nation, not on an island, or temple.

 

It has nothing to do with Jews or Gentiles, male or female, rich or poor, child or adult, it is about connecting to God as individuals. These are the true Israel, scattered in all the world, but in the minority.

 

The woman in Jericho, the only one saved out of Jericho, she was a true Israelite, but she wasn't even a Jew, let alone with them.

 

The wise men who found Christ, were not Jews, but they were of the faith of Abraham.

 

Political Israel will not be restored by God, the Devil may do it, but not God.

 

We belong to the Jerusalem above...

[Guest shiloh357]

No Kan...   You need to read your Bible. 

 

Revelation 19 doesn't say there will be no flesh alive and it doesn't say that that the saints will be taken to heaven at the Second Coming.  You are penciling something to the text that is not  there.   It says that the armies at Megiddo will be destroyed and the remnant of unbelievers still left on the earth will be destroyed.   Believers who were accepted Christ during the Tribulation do not go to heaven, but reign on the earth and they get thrones to reign upon.

 

Revelation 20: 8,9 indicate that the saints are on the earth, not in heaven.

 

The Bible teaches the restoration of national Israel,  in Jer. 31, Ezek. 36, 37, 40-48, Zechariah 12: 1-10, Amos 9:14-15  and Revelation 20 where Jesus will reign from a restored nation of Israel.   If you don't believe that the nation of Israel will be restored, you don't believe the Bible.

 

God is not done with national Israel, and there are still prophecies  yet to be fulfilled to national Israel.   The Bible never spiritualizes the name Israel to mean a spiritual people.  It never spiritualizes the word "Jew."   All references in the Bible to the Jews and Israel are ethnic and national, never spiritual.

 

You views contradict Jeremiah 31: 35,36  which says that Israel will never cease being a NATION before Him.  In fact, all of Jeremiah 31 is speaking prophetically of the nation of Israel, both in terms of Jesus' first coming and his Second Coming.   

 

The current nation of Israel is recognized by competent scholars of the Bible as a direct fulfillment of Bible prophecy and a testament to God's faithfulness to His word.   To deny Israel's literal restoration as a nation is to assault God's character and you are calling Him a liar.   If anyone's teaching is  of the devil, it is yours.

[Kan]

Shiloh, 

 

Revelation 19, sees an end of those who worship the beast and received his mark, that is the entire world, except those who did not receive the mark.

 

Again in chapter 20 KJV, the same issue is bought up, and it tells of those who have been saved, to reign with Christ. And it talks about resurrections, not about settlements on earth.

 

The resurrection is about taking people out of the grave to heaven, with new bodies, just like Christ left the grave, with His body healed. That is what Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions, I go to prepare a place for you" Jesus did not renovate or build anything on earth, but in heaven. "So that where I go (to heaven) you may be there also." Nothing about inhabiting a war torn and burnt world with Satan in some dungeon. The abyss that Satan is bound to is this earth without any inhabitants to tempt and destroy, for a 1000 years, then he is let loose, when there is a second resurrection for the wicked.

 

I am not trying to argue for a doctrine, but for the actual content in the Bible, so far as the English language allows.

What people have been taught to think about certain texts, concerns me, but more so, the inability for basic reading and comprehension, because of these false teachings and ideas. This is so common among religions which claim to hold the Bible as their authority.

[Kan]

As far as the thread topic goes, I am still waiting for someone to show me one text which is supposed to support the rapture, which cannot be applied to the return of Christ.