The_Patriot21 Posted June 20, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 28 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,710 Content Per Day: 2.46 Reputation: 8,526 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted June 20, 2015 I guess we will all find out one way or another.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted June 20, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 20, 2015 Is it possible that it could be the Church and the angels?  Not if you read Revelation 19:5-16 as a continuous narrative and then carry on with verses 17-21.  There is no reference to angels in the above passage. When you get to verse 17 you find an angel inviting all the birds of prey to the "feast" which God has prepared for them. It is only in other Scriptures that we find angels coming with Christ, therefore those passages must be harmonized with the ones showing Christ coming with His saints, and when we read of "clouds" those are clouds of both saints and angels (Rev 1:7): Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. This ties in with the OP. The Second Coming = Universal Mourning. The Rapture, on the other hand = The Blessed Hope. Also since "our citizenship is in Heaven" the saints are not "kindreds of the earth".  What we have in the above passage (Rev 19:5-16) is the Marriage of the Lamb to His Bride, who naturally becomes the Lamb's Wife (it is noteworhty that too many Christians forget that the Bride will eventually become the Wife, and continue to discuss the Bride). The marriage is spiritual and metaphorical, but the saints are those who have received imputed righteousness, hence their metaphorical and/or spiritual clothing is fine linen, clean and white (v 8) and it is these same saints who are found on white horses with their fine linen, white and clean (v 14). These are also the ones who were washed from their sins "in his own blood"(Rev 1:5). Every believer receives "a robe of righteousness" (Isa 61:10; Lu 15:22) after this washing.  Holy angels need no cleansing and no imputed righteous, and unholy angels are beyond redemption. Therefore the saints of God are His army, but Christ destroys His enemies with the word of His mouth (Rev 19:15 cf 2 Thess 1:5-10). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted June 20, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,200 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Hi bopeep 1909, Â This tells us who the captain & the army are. Â `And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes & looked, & behold, a man stood opposite him with his sword drawn in his hand. And Joshua went to him & said to him, "Are you for us or for our adversaries?" So he said, "No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth & worshipped, & said to him. "What does my Lord say to his servant?" Then the Commander of the Lord`s army said to Joshua. "Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy." And Joshua did so.` (Joshua 5: 13 - 15) Â Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted June 20, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 20, 2015 The Rapture, on the other hand = The Blessed Hope.     Titus 2:1  But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:   Titus 2:2  That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.   Titus 2:3  The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;   Titus 2:4  That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,   Titus 2:5  To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.   Titus 2:6  Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.   Titus 2:7  In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,   Titus 2:8  Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.   Titus 2:9  Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;   Titus 2:10  Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.   Titus 2:11  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,   Titus 2:12  Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;   Titus 2:13  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;   Titus 2:14  Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.   Titus 2:15  These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.  Ezra  I do not see anything in here that equals a rapture or even hints of one? All I see is a run down that we must speak sound doctrine, with sound speech that cannot be condemed, and how to behave in the Lord. It's the grace of God that teaches us all these things, and looking for that blessed hope (hope, not doubt, that all truth which is given to us ...will be fulfilled,) and the glorious appearing of our great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.  This is the prize, If we follow all intructions, We look forward to that day  I cannot see anything that this bless hope = rapture? maybe you were referring to another scripture?  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted June 20, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 20, 2015 Ezra  I do not see anything in here that equals a rapture or even hints of one? All I see is a run down that we must speak sound doctrine, with sound speech that cannot be condemed, and how to behave in the Lord. It's the grace of God that teaches us all these things, and looking for that blessed hope (hope, not doubt, that all truth which is given to us ...will be fulfilled,) and the glorious appearing of our great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.  This is the prize, If we follow all intructions, We look forward to that day  I cannot see anything that this bless hope = rapture? maybe you were referring to another scripture?  No, I am referring to this Scripture and specifically to "the glorious APPEARING" of Christ. That word "appearing" is the key to the Rapture and has been translated from epiphaneia (Eng epiphany) which is a shining forth.  Now when you turn to 1 Jn 3:1-3 you will find this description of the Rapture, where the word "APPEAR" (phanerothe = manifested) is found, and as you can see epiphaneia and phanerothe are related: 1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.  Christ is not "a prize" to be awarded, since He lives within every saint. Neither is eternal life which is a gift from God (Rom 6:23).  But it is only when He appears for His saints -- and His appearing must be glorious because He radiates Divine light -- that we shall be glorified (Rom 8:29,30 etc).  That is the Blessed Hope, that we shall be perfected in body, soul, and spirit and resemble Christ. That is the purpose of predestination and election -- to be "conformed to the image of His Son". Thus we find the word "hope" once again -- "and every man that hath this HOPE".  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted June 20, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,991 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,689 Content Per Day: 11.81 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 20, 2015 Hi bopeep 1909, Â This tells us who the captain & the army are. Â `And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes & looked, & behold, a man stood opposite him with his sword drawn in his hand. And Joshua went to him & said to him, "Are you for us or for our adversaries?" So he said, "No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth & worshipped, & said to him. "What does my Lord say to his servant?" Then the Commander of the Lord`s army said to Joshua. "Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy." And Joshua did so.` (Joshua 5: 13 - 15) Â Marilyn. No that does not tell me who will come back to earth with Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted June 20, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,200 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Â Hi bopeep 1909, Â This tells us who the captain & the army are. Â `And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes & looked, & behold, a man stood opposite him with his sword drawn in his hand. And Joshua went to him & said to him, "Are you for us or for our adversaries?" So he said, "No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth & worshipped, & said to him. "What does my Lord say to his servant?" Then the Commander of the Lord`s army said to Joshua. "Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy." And Joshua did so.` (Joshua 5: 13 - 15) Â Marilyn. No that does not tell me who will come back to earth with Christ. Â Hi bopeep 1909, Â I hear you. However we need to remember that God wrote His word & He has the interpretations. Thus we look at all the scriptures on that topic. - Who does God say His army is throughout His word? Â So we see in Joshua 5 that there is the Lord`s army & a Commander of that army. Then in 2 Kings we read - Â `And Elisha prayed, & said, "Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see." Then the Lord opened the eyes of the young man, & he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses, & chariots of fire all around Elisha.` (2 Kings 6: 17) Â Also in the Psalms - Â `The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of thousands;...` (Ps. 68: 17) Â There are many more scriptures showing that God has an army & that the Lord is the Lord of hosts, angelic hosts, angelic army. The angelic army has always been the ones to deal with mankind & demons - Â `And war broke out in heaven: Michael & his angels fought against the dragon; & the dragon & his angels fought, but they did not prevail,...` (Rev. 12: 7 & 8) Â Thus we see that Christ Himself tells us that it is this army that comes with Him to earth to battle the armies of the world & the demons operating with them. Â `When the Son of Man comes in His glory, & ALL HIS HOLY ANGELS WITH HIM,...` (Matt. 25: 31) Â Hope that is clearer, bo, Marilyn. Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted June 21, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,991 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,689 Content Per Day: 11.81 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 21, 2015 Â Â Hi bopeep 1909, Â This tells us who the captain & the army are. Â `And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes & looked, & behold, a man stood opposite him with his sword drawn in his hand. And Joshua went to him & said to him, "Are you for us or for our adversaries?" So he said, "No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth & worshipped, & said to him. "What does my Lord say to his servant?" Then the Commander of the Lord`s army said to Joshua. "Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy." And Joshua did so.` (Joshua 5: 13 - 15) Â Marilyn. No that does not tell me who will come back to earth with Christ. Â Hi bopeep 1909, Â I hear you. However we need to remember that God wrote His word & He has the interpretations. Thus we look at all the scriptures on that topic. - Who does God say His army is throughout His word? Â So we see in Joshua 5 that there is the Lord`s army & a Commander of that army. Then in 2 Kings we read - Â `And Elisha prayed, & said, "Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see." Then the Lord opened the eyes of the young man, & he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses, & chariots of fire all around Elisha.` (2 Kings 6: 17) Â Also in the Psalms - Â `The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of thousands;...` (Ps. 68: 17) Â There are many more scriptures showing that God has an army & that the Lord is the Lord of hosts, angelic hosts, angelic army. The angelic army has always been the ones to deal with mankind & demons - Â `And war broke out in heaven: Michael & his angels fought against the dragon; & the dragon & his angels fought, but they did not prevail,...` (Rev. 12: 7 & 8) Â Thus we see that Christ Himself tells us that it is this army that comes with Him to earth to battle the armies of the world & the demons operating with them. Â `When the Son of Man comes in His glory, & ALL HIS HOLY ANGELS WITH HIM,...` (Matt. 25: 31) Â Hope that is clearer, bo, Marilyn. Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Clear as mud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted June 21, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,200 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Hi bopeep1909, Â Â Muddy waters ay. Well, what scriptures do you see for God`s army? Â Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob2 Posted June 23, 2015 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 38 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/22/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 23, 2015 I was taught the pretrib rapture when young in the Bible by church groups ,  But my Bible studies blew holes and many questions in that theory .  Jesus said multiple times that He would raise up believers on the LAST day , not 7 yrs before the last day or 3.5 yrs before the last day . He also said He is with us until the End.  It was Jesus words that blew big holes in it that never where patched up since.  I can come up with many more reasons in scriptures since then , but it began with Jesus words , read John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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