When was Gen 15:6 Fulfilled?

[Tristen]

 

 

 

 

 

You said, “James is saying that it is the reckoning of his righteousness which is fulfilled in Gen 22, which is consistent with the text that a person is justified (reckoned righteous) by his works and not by faith alone”

 

So when James uses “fulfilled”, he is not referring to a prophecy, but Abram’s justification. This is a departure from your previous arguments. The implication of this concession is that we can accept a broader connotation of “fulfilled”, than that used by other scriptures which are referring to prophecies.

 

 

 

No. You say James uses “fulfilled”, he is not referring to a prophecy, but Abram’s justification. I say that James is saying Gen 15:6 is a prophecy predicting Abraham's justification, predicted in Gen 15 and fulfilled in Gen 22. That speaks to all your objections. As James uses Gen 15:6 as a prophecy, all your other objections are non sequitur. 

 

 

You said, “I say that James is saying Gen 15:6 is a prophecy predicting Abraham's justification, predicted in Gen 15 and fulfilled in Gen 22. That speaks to all your objections”

 

It doesn’t “speak to [my] objection” that no prophetic grammar is evident in Gen 15:6

It doesn’t “speak to [my] objection” that no prophetic fulfilment is stated in Gen 22

It doesn’t “speak to [my] objection” that James doesn’t actually state your interpretation - that Abram’s justification was incomplete prior to Gen 22 – which you are reading into James.

It doesn’t “speak to [my] objection” that such an interpretation is ridiculous – implying that we all must make a sacrifice of our children in order to complete our justification; or at least fulfil some personal, specific, God-ordained act.

It doesn’t “speak to [my] objection” that such an interpretation is inconsistent with the context provided by James (in both the introduction and the overall point of the passage).

It doesn’t “speak to [my] objection” that James applies a different grammatical pattern to the phrase “fulfilled scripture”, than other passages using similar phraseology.

 

- All of which supports using a broader connotation for the interpretation of “fulfilled” in James 2:23.

 

And so your statement here doesn’t “speak to” my claim that there is a perfectly reasonable way to interpret the latter half of James 2 – in a manner that is consistent with the Paul and the rest of scripture.

 

So again, your statement here is little more than an Unsupported Assertion. You appear reluctant to specifically address my actual arguments.

 

 

 

“As James uses Gen 15:6 as a prophecy, all your other objections are non sequitur”

 

Perhaps if you were to provide an argument as to where my position departs from logic, this accusation could be taken seriously. But as it stands, all you have provided is yet another Unsupported Assertion. The accusation of Unsupported Assertion cannot be reconciled through the provision of yet more Unsupported Assertions. Broad claims that you are right and I am wrong don’t actually settle the issue (beyond your own imagination).

[Floatingaxe]

Genesis 15:6

And Abram believed the Lord, and the Lord counted him as righteous because of his faith.

 

 

 

This was fulfilled immediately upon Abraham's belief. What's the problem??? It isn't prophetic scripture.

[bcbsr]

Genesis 15:6

And Abram believed the Lord, and the Lord counted him as righteous because of his faith.

 

 

 

This was fulfilled immediately upon Abraham's belief. What's the problem??? It isn't prophetic scripture.

 

And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." James 2:23

 

The phrase "Scripture was fulfilled", is a kind of phrase used multiple times in the Bible indicative of a prophecy. James views the fulfillment of Gen 15:6, which he views as a prophecy, as being fulfilled in Gen 22.

 

That being the case, there's a serious problem between James and Paul.

[bcbsr]

 

 

 

 

 

 

You said, “James is saying that it is the reckoning of his righteousness which is fulfilled in Gen 22, which is consistent with the text that a person is justified (reckoned righteous) by his works and not by faith alone”

 

So when James uses “fulfilled”, he is not referring to a prophecy, but Abram’s justification. This is a departure from your previous arguments. The implication of this concession is that we can accept a broader connotation of “fulfilled”, than that used by other scriptures which are referring to prophecies.

 

 

 

No. You say James uses “fulfilled”, he is not referring to a prophecy, but Abram’s justification. I say that James is saying Gen 15:6 is a prophecy predicting Abraham's justification, predicted in Gen 15 and fulfilled in Gen 22. That speaks to all your objections. As James uses Gen 15:6 as a prophecy, all your other objections are non sequitur. 

 

 

You said, “I say that James is saying Gen 15:6 is a prophecy predicting Abraham's justification, predicted in Gen 15 and fulfilled in Gen 22. That speaks to all your objections”

 

It doesn’t “speak to [my] objection” that no prophetic grammar is evident in Gen 15:6

It doesn’t “speak to [my] objection” that no prophetic fulfilment is stated in Gen 22

It doesn’t “speak to [my] objection” that James doesn’t actually state your interpretation - that Abram’s justification was incomplete prior to Gen 22 – which you are reading into James.

It doesn’t “speak to [my] objection” that such an interpretation is ridiculous – implying that we all must make a sacrifice of our children in order to complete our justification; or at least fulfil some personal, specific, God-ordained act.

It doesn’t “speak to [my] objection” that such an interpretation is inconsistent with the context provided by James (in both the introduction and the overall point of the passage).

It doesn’t “speak to [my] objection” that James applies a different grammatical pattern to the phrase “fulfilled scripture”, than other passages using similar phraseology.

 

- All of which supports using a broader connotation for the interpretation of “fulfilled” in James 2:23.

 

And so your statement here doesn’t “speak to” my claim that there is a perfectly reasonable way to interpret the latter half of James 2 – in a manner that is consistent with the Paul and the rest of scripture.

 

So again, your statement here is little more than an Unsupported Assertion. You appear reluctant to specifically address my actual arguments.

 

 

 

“As James uses Gen 15:6 as a prophecy, all your other objections are non sequitur”

 

Perhaps if you were to provide an argument as to where my position departs from logic, this accusation could be taken seriously. But as it stands, all you have provided is yet another Unsupported Assertion. The accusation of Unsupported Assertion cannot be reconciled through the provision of yet more Unsupported Assertions. Broad claims that you are right and I am wrong don’t actually settle the issue (beyond your own imagination).

 

 

Much of what you're really saying is that you disagree with James using Gen 15:6 as a prophecy.  I also disagree with James using Gen 15:6 as a prophecy. But that James for you. His mishandling of Scripture to purposely oppose Paul demonstrates that his letter is not scripture.

[Floatingaxe]

 

Genesis 15:6

And Abram believed the Lord, and the Lord counted him as righteous because of his faith.

 

 

 

This was fulfilled immediately upon Abraham's belief. What's the problem??? It isn't prophetic scripture.

 

And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." James 2:23

 

The phrase "Scripture was fulfilled", is a kind of phrase used multiple times in the Bible indicative of a prophecy. James views the fulfillment of Gen 15:6, which he views as a prophecy, as being fulfilled in Gen 22.

 

That being the case, there's a serious problem between James and Paul.

 

 

James 2:21-24

²¹ Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? ²² You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. ²³ And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God. ²⁴ So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.

 

There is nothing demonstrably prophetic there.

 

The only person at odds with James is you, and not only that, but you oppose the very word of God.

 

Receive Jesus Christ, and believe His word. Stop bringing division to the Body of Christ. There will be dire consequences if you continue in this foolishness without repentance.

[bcbsr]

 

 

 

James 2:21-24

²¹ Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? ²² You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. ²³ And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God. ²⁴ So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.

 

There is nothing demonstrably prophetic there.

 

The only person at odds with James is you, and not only that, but you oppose the very word of God.

 

Receive Jesus Christ, and believe His word. Stop bringing division to the Body of Christ. There will be dire consequences if you continue in this foolishness without repentance.

 

 

 

First you might put aside your NLT paraphrase version for a more literal one if you're serious about Bible study. What it says is: And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

 

Earlier in this thread I listed multiple examples of this kind of phrase being used in the Bible, and in every case it's speaking of the scripture referenced as a prophecy. I agree that James shouldn't have done so with regards to Gen 15;6, but he did. And he did so to support his idea that "a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.", which is what he literally says in the verse following that. Thus James understanding of Gen 15:6 is that Abraham was not accounted righteous until he not only had faith but a work of faith. 

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

 

James 2:21-24

²¹ Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? ²² You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. ²³ And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God. ²⁴ So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.

 

There is nothing demonstrably prophetic there.

 

The only person at odds with James is you, and not only that, but you oppose the very word of God.

 

Receive Jesus Christ, and believe His word. Stop bringing division to the Body of Christ. There will be dire consequences if you continue in this foolishness without repentance.

 

 

 

First you might put aside your NLT paraphrase version for a more literal one if you're serious about Bible study. What it says is: And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

 

Earlier in this thread I listed multiple examples of this kind of phrase being used in the Bible, and in every case it's speaking of the scripture referenced as a prophecy. I agree that James shouldn't have done so with regards to Gen 15;6, but he did. And he did so to support his idea that "a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.", which is what he literally says in the verse following that. Thus James understanding of Gen 15:6 is that Abraham was not accounted righteous until he not only had faith but a work of faith. 

 

 

You don't like the NLT? I do, and it isn't a paraphrase. It obviously corrects you. "Fulfilled" doesn't necessarily refer to a fulfillment of the prophetic. Here is the word and it's various meanings:

 

πληρόω

plēroō

play-ro'-o

From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

 

 

James is fully aware of the truth about Abraham, and spoke it, but you are not. Your disdain of James is very clear, and that is what is leading you astray, and is fueling your desire to lead others astray.

[bcbsr]

 

 

 

 

James 2:21-24

²¹ Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? ²² You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. ²³ And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God. ²⁴ So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.

 

There is nothing demonstrably prophetic there.

 

The only person at odds with James is you, and not only that, but you oppose the very word of God.

 

Receive Jesus Christ, and believe His word. Stop bringing division to the Body of Christ. There will be dire consequences if you continue in this foolishness without repentance.

 

 

 

First you might put aside your NLT paraphrase version for a more literal one if you're serious about Bible study. What it says is: And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

 

Earlier in this thread I listed multiple examples of this kind of phrase being used in the Bible, and in every case it's speaking of the scripture referenced as a prophecy. I agree that James shouldn't have done so with regards to Gen 15;6, but he did. And he did so to support his idea that "a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.", which is what he literally says in the verse following that. Thus James understanding of Gen 15:6 is that Abraham was not accounted righteous until he not only had faith but a work of faith. 

 

 

You don't like the NLT? I do, and it isn't a paraphrase. It obviously corrects you. "Fulfilled" doesn't necessarily refer to a fulfillment of the prophetic. Here is the word and it's various meanings:

 

πληρόω

plēroō

play-ro'-o

From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

 

 

James is fully aware of the truth about Abraham, and spoke it, but you are not. Your disdain of James is very clear, and that is what is leading you astray, and is fueling your desire to lead others astray.

 

 

And yet not even your version agrees with you. For it says, "And so it happened just as the Scriptures say" So what was it that "happened" in Gen 22 just as the Scriptures say?

[Tristen]

 

 

 

 

You said, “I say that James is saying Gen 15:6 is a prophecy predicting Abraham's justification, predicted in Gen 15 and fulfilled in Gen 22. That speaks to all your objections”

 

It doesn’t “speak to [my] objection” that no prophetic grammar is evident in Gen 15:6

It doesn’t “speak to [my] objection” that no prophetic fulfilment is stated in Gen 22

It doesn’t “speak to [my] objection” that James doesn’t actually state your interpretation - that Abram’s justification was incomplete prior to Gen 22 – which you are reading into James.

It doesn’t “speak to [my] objection” that such an interpretation is ridiculous – implying that we all must make a sacrifice of our children in order to complete our justification; or at least fulfil some personal, specific, God-ordained act.

It doesn’t “speak to [my] objection” that such an interpretation is inconsistent with the context provided by James (in both the introduction and the overall point of the passage).

It doesn’t “speak to [my] objection” that James applies a different grammatical pattern to the phrase “fulfilled scripture”, than other passages using similar phraseology.

 

- All of which supports using a broader connotation for the interpretation of “fulfilled” in James 2:23.

 

And so your statement here doesn’t “speak to” my claim that there is a perfectly reasonable way to interpret the latter half of James 2 – in a manner that is consistent with the Paul and the rest of scripture.

 

So again, your statement here is little more than an Unsupported Assertion. You appear reluctant to specifically address my actual arguments.

 

 

 

“As James uses Gen 15:6 as a prophecy, all your other objections are non sequitur”

 

Perhaps if you were to provide an argument as to where my position departs from logic, this accusation could be taken seriously. But as it stands, all you have provided is yet another Unsupported Assertion. The accusation of Unsupported Assertion cannot be reconciled through the provision of yet more Unsupported Assertions. Broad claims that you are right and I am wrong don’t actually settle the issue (beyond your own imagination).

 

 

Much of what you're really saying is that you disagree with James using Gen 15:6 as a prophecy.  I also disagree with James using Gen 15:6 as a prophecy. But that James for you. His mishandling of Scripture to purposely oppose Paul demonstrates that his letter is not scripture.

 

 

I think I’ve been abundantly clear that my arguments are NOT against James, but refute how you are interpreting James.

 

Your attempts to twist my arguments indicate to me that you aren’t really interested or ready to consider the other side of the argument. It is my sincere hope that you have a faith in the gospel that can be sustained by adherence to the rest of scripture.

God bless.

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

 

 

 

James 2:21-24

²¹ Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? ²² You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. ²³ And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God. ²⁴ So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.

 

There is nothing demonstrably prophetic there.

 

The only person at odds with James is you, and not only that, but you oppose the very word of God.

 

Receive Jesus Christ, and believe His word. Stop bringing division to the Body of Christ. There will be dire consequences if you continue in this foolishness without repentance.

 

 

 

First you might put aside your NLT paraphrase version for a more literal one if you're serious about Bible study. What it says is: And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

 

Earlier in this thread I listed multiple examples of this kind of phrase being used in the Bible, and in every case it's speaking of the scripture referenced as a prophecy. I agree that James shouldn't have done so with regards to Gen 15;6, but he did. And he did so to support his idea that "a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.", which is what he literally says in the verse following that. Thus James understanding of Gen 15:6 is that Abraham was not accounted righteous until he not only had faith but a work of faith. 

 

 

You don't like the NLT? I do, and it isn't a paraphrase. It obviously corrects you. "Fulfilled" doesn't necessarily refer to a fulfillment of the prophetic. Here is the word and it's various meanings:

 

πληρόω

plēroō

play-ro'-o

From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

 

 

James is fully aware of the truth about Abraham, and spoke it, but you are not. Your disdain of James is very clear, and that is what is leading you astray, and is fueling your desire to lead others astray.

 

 

And yet not even your version agrees with you. For it says, "And so it happened just as the Scriptures say" So what was it that "happened" in Gen 22 just as the Scriptures say?

 

 

What happened was that Abraham believed God and obeyed Him. God saw His faith and considered Him righteous.

 

Genesis 22:15-18

¹⁵ The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time ¹⁶ and said, “I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, ¹⁷ I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, ¹⁸ and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.”