JohnD Posted June 19, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 908 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,653 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,837 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted June 19, 2015 Were the Jews in the Old Testament / Old Covenant interactive with the FATHER Jesus, preincarnate, is the lone creator of all things in the beginning (Isaiah 44:24 / Colossians 1:16) and is therefore the Father of creation. The Heavenly Father's only begotten Son is Jesus (John 1:14, John 3:16-18, Hebrews 10:5, Hebrews 1:5). So, Adam the son of God (Luke 3:38) and the sons of God in Genesis 6 and Job 1 and Job 2 are sons of the preincarnate Jesus (God the Word see John 1:1-3). Jesus (preincarnate) is the I AM in the burning bush (Exodus 3) the one who called out Abram from Ur and who visited him before rescuing Lot and destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, the one who dealt with him in Genesis 22, the one who wrestled with Jacob, who visited Moses and who gave him the Law... The Heavenly Father is present but not revealed nor is he the primary one Israel dealt with. He is not even our direct Father but is our Father through adoption. Romans 8:15 (AV) 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. So Jesus has been YHVH (the LORD) Israel has been dealing with all along. John 7:28–29 (AV) 28Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 29But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me. So the indication is that they never knew the Father but it was Jesus they were dealing with and did not know it and rejected the very LORD himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted June 19, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 19, 2015 Jesus, preincarnate, is the lone creator of all things in the beginning (Isaiah 44:24 / Colossians 1:16) and is therefore the Father of creation. The Heavenly Father's only begotten Son is Jesus (John 1:14, John 3:16-18, Hebrews 10:5, Hebrews 1:5). So, Adam the son of God (Luke 3:38) and the sons of God in Genesis 6 and Job 1 and Job 2 are sons of the preincarnate Jesus (God the Word see John 1:1-3). Jesus (preincarnate) is the I AM in the burning bush (Exodus 3) the one who called out Abram from Ur and who visited him before rescuing Lot and destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, the one who dealt with him in Genesis 22, the one who wrestled with Jacob, who visited Moses and who gave him the Law... The Heavenly Father is present but not revealed nor is he the primary one Israel dealt with. He is not even our direct Father but is our Father through adoption. Romans 8:15 (AV)15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. So Jesus has been YHVH (the LORD) Israel has been dealing with all along. John 7:28–29 (AV)28Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.29But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me. So the indication is that they never knew the Father but it was Jesus they were dealing with and did not know it and rejected the very LORD himself.I am not sure that I can agree with your opinion that God the Father had not been revealed to Israel in the OT.What is the main point your trying to make in this thread as I haven't picked up on it.I have found reading through your thoughts and opinions which you have shared to be overly complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted June 19, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,869 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,764 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Online Share Posted June 19, 2015 It very important what you have just reveal and God bless you. Paul, repeatedly is telling us that Jesus created everything and John also. Jesus said clearly no one has seen the Heavenly Father, only the one who has come from above knows him and look, no one has heard his voice, only I hear his voice and I bring his word to you ( that's why we call him the word) I am the Lord of the Sabath ? Jerusalem Jerusalem I sent you my prophets and you keel them one by one (I hope they don't do this to you with this post--me I am ok,because I am already dead) When he said " our father in heaven, the Jews would like to keel him, (no our father is in the temple ) Jesus said, even now , the beast of desolation is sitting in the temple. I beleive Jesus has ordain you as instrument to open the eyes of the spiritual blindness of the Jews and bring them to him You are an annoytend vessel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodion_Raskolnikov_ Posted June 19, 2015 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 141 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 145 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/05/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/02/1974 Share Posted June 19, 2015 JohnD. I've been reading your posts. They are interesting. You bring up things I hadn't thought about. The Moses burning Bush...Everyone knows the "I am that I am..." Couldn't this be more accurately translated as "I will be what I will be". God is whatever He chooses to be. Of course, God is not a liar and His will is perfect. So, once he decided to be a thing, He is that thing, always. But, it was His choice to be so. This seemed to be news to Moses. So, I don't know. Maybe the ancient Hebrews didn't know all about the Lord. God called Moses to Sinai to learn the man, after all. Well, every bit of any Bible was penned after the Flood. Noah, and those before him, probably knew the Lord as no other. I bet we lost a lot after the Flood, and Babel. I have trouble with a lot of concepts in the Bible. There are some things I don't have a problem with, though. There are things my limited perception can't reconcile. Free will vs pre destination, for example. I know that God exists outside of time (He invented time). God exists outside of matter (He invented matter). God "knew" everything from the beginning of our universe, to the end of it as he created it. He is the same God at the beginning of time, and the end of time. Literally, not just figuratively. The beginning of time, and the end of it (and every point in between) is the exact same moment for God. It only seems like eons to our limited perception. Everything has already happened. All of us are either in Heaven, or Hell at this point. We just don't know it yet because we haven't left this world yet. Heaven, Hell, and God are timeless. Our temporal, physical reality exists outside the true reality that is God. Everything in our reality, from the beginning of time to the end, is separate from the true reality that is God and Heaven and Hell. So, since all of Creation has already happened how is it that we have free will? I don't know, but we do. God made all of Creation and instantly made everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen in the same instant. Yet, I still have the ability to choose my own destiny. It's a paradox. I don't understand it. Fortunately, I don't have to understand it. I have faith. My God is capable of making me, knowing everything I would do beforehand (thus making my choices for me), and yet giving me complete free will. My comprehension is limited but I'm trying to comprehend the Creator of all space and time and everything. It seems like an impossible paradox to me but is an easy trick or Him. I don't have to understand how free will and predestination work together, I just have to know that God can make it happen. In the same way can none of us (truly) comprehend the Trinity. Even the ancient Hebrews. Maybe they knew how it all worked before the Flood? I don't know. If we could go back to then maybe we could learn a different perspective, a different way of thinking. So, no. Like others have said, I'm not sure that the ancient Hebrews understood the Trinity, or modern Jews. I'm also not sure it even matters. Like so many others have said, the important thing is that we understand the sacrifice of Christ, and accept it. God will present with whatever knowledge we need and whatever knowledge we can handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FresnoJoe Posted June 19, 2015 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 207 Topic Count: 60 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,651 Content Per Day: 1.17 Reputation: 5,761 Days Won: 4 Joined: 01/31/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/04/1943 Share Posted June 19, 2015 it was Jesus they were dealing with.... Amen~! For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isaiah 54:5 And Amen~! Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted July 13, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 908 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,653 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,837 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 13, 2015 Sorry about the confusion in the thread title. The word "FATHER" did not show up and I did not catch it till today. Hopefully this will make it clearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted July 18, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,869 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,764 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Online Share Posted July 18, 2015 If, you can explain the FATHER" what do you mean? Do you mean the FATHER of Israel, as in Insrael is my first born and I want no other. The Lord God of the Israelites. Who bring the children out of Egypt, and so on. Or as in the Haevenly FATHER, who you don't know, and no one has hear his voice, only I, and I do what he tells me, and I have come from above and only I know him. And I have not go up in heaven to show my self to my God and to your God. I pray that me and the FATHER in heaven are one as you and me are one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted July 18, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.34 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 18, 2015 While God did reveal Himself as the Father of those who trusted in Him, and He is mentioned as "Father" many times in the OT, His saints and His servants addressed Him simply as O God, or O LORD my God, or O LORD God, or O our God, or O LORD God of Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted July 18, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 908 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,653 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,837 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 18, 2015 If, you can explain the FATHER" what do you mean? Do you mean the FATHER of Israel, as in Insrael is my first born and I want no other. The Lord God of the Israelites. Who bring the children out of Egypt, and so on. Or as in the Haevenly FATHER, who you don't know, and no one has hear his voice, only I, and I do what he tells me, and I have come from above and only I know him. And I have not go up in heaven to show my self to my God and to your God. I pray that me and the FATHER in heaven are one as you and me are one. There's the Father of Eternity (Jesus) lone Creator of Heaven and Earth (Colossians 1:16 / Isaiah 44:24) Isaiah 9:6 (AV) 6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. There's the Father of the Bible (the Holy Spirit) 2 Peter 1:20–21 (AV) 20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Then there's the Father of Jesus Christ (the Heavenly Father) John 1:14 (AV) 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Hebrews 10:5 (AV) 5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: Hebrews 1:5 (AV) 5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? Who Jesus said no man has seen or heard at anytime... John 1:18 (AV) 18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. John 5:37 (AV) 37And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. Ergo, though the Father was present, obviously, as was the Holy Spirit, the primary individual in the Godhead man has been dealing with was Jesus preincarnate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted July 18, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 908 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,653 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,837 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 18, 2015 John 5:23 (AV) 23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 15:23 (AV) 23He that hateth me hateth my Father also. 1 John 2:23 (AV) 23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. To the Jew who rejects Jesus, they are rejecting YHVH (the LORD / HaShem) and never knew the Heavenly Father in the first place. So they cannot say they follow the Father. They rejected the one who is the only God they were ever introduced to (Jesus came teaching a loving Heavenly Father they never knew). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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