Evidence of a 1000 years rest

[thereselittleflower]

Hi Terese

 

I know these questions are not for me, but I am happy to answer the first one for now and show some proof.  Please read carefully.  I know it's a lot to read, but maybe you have not read these scriptures.  I pray the Lord show you a big part of his plan, and if you don't agree, then that's fine, I'm not about forcing anyone to believe what I say, but at least you can read what the Word of the Lord has to say and make your own mind up.  There are so many scriptures from here and there, and this is what I intended this post for.

 

 

the millennial period  does not require that there be sinlessness in the world to prove that Christ is ruling (with a rod of iron no less)  

 

 

Correct, but what it does prove is that instead of all these different teachings about "the truth" like what we have today, we will have just "one truth" coming out of the kingdom.  The truth will be established (made known to Israel and the gentiles)

 

 Isaiah 62:7   And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

 

Isaiah 10:20   And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

 

I started here with Israel, because the millennium is going to be centered around Israel.  After Armageddon, the Millennium begins, but there is the setting up of the kingdom first and everything in it's order.

I mentioned previously that Christ and the saints will teach Israel, and in turn Israel will go out from the kingdom to the gentiles.  Christ is making everything right now, grounding them and giving them the opportunity to honour and sow good seed in the way it the way it should of been done in the first place.   This time it's going to be a fruitful field with lots of good fruits.

 

 

 

 Zechariah 8:3   Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

  Zechariah 8:8   And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

 

Zechariah 8:14   For thus saith the LORD of hosts; As I thought to punish you, when your fathers provoked me to wrath, saith the LORD of hosts, and I repented not:

Zechariah 8:15   So again have I thought in these days to do well unto Jerusalem and to the house of Judah: fear ye not.

 

In the Kingdom, this is how they will be instructed.

Zechariah 8:16   These are the things that ye shall do; Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbour; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates:

 

Zechariah 8:17   And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the LORD.

Zechariah 8:18   And the word of the LORD of hosts came unto me, saying,

Zechariah 8:19   Thus saith the LORD of hosts; The fast of the fourth month, and the fast of the fifth, and the fast of the seventh, and the fast of the tenth, shall be to the house of Judah joy and gladness, and cheerful feasts; therefore love the truth and peace.

Zechariah 8:20   Thus saith the LORD of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:

Zechariah 8:21   And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also.

Zechariah 8:22   Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.

Zechariah 8:23   Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Zechariah 9:1   The burden of the word of the LORD in the land of Hadrach, and Damascus shall be the rest thereof: when the eyes of man, as of all the tribes of Israel, shall be toward the LORD.

 

 

 

 

Jeremiah 33:6   Behold, I will bring it health and cure, and I will cure them, and will reveal unto them the abundance of peace and truth.

Jeremiah 33:7   And I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them, as at the first.

  Jeremiah 33:8   And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against me.

  Jeremiah 33:9   And it shall be to me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them: and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it.

 

There is no symbolism here, just straight truth and a glimpse of the near future.  How can something so good be true?  We are going to be seeing some wonderful things we never thought possible.

 

Jeremiah 33:10   Thus saith the LORD; Again there shall be heard in this place, which ye say shall be desolate without man and without beast, even in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, that are desolate, without man, and without inhabitant, and without beast,

  Jeremiah 33:11   The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall say, Praise the LORD of hosts: for the LORD is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: and of them that shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of the LORD. For I will cause to return the captivity of the land, as at the first, saith the LORD.

(not animal sacrifices, but sin sacrifices.)

  Jeremiah 33:12   Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Again in this place, which is desolate without man and without beast, and in all the cities thereof, shall be an habitation of shepherds causing their flocks to lie down.

(Instead of ruins, Israel will be turned into fruitful field and Israel will be "the true shepherds" during this time, they will go out to the nations and spread truth. Their flocks are at rest)

 

  Jeremiah 33:13   In the cities of the mountains, in the cities of the vale, and in the cities of the south, and in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, shall the flocks pass again under the hands of him that telleth them, saith the LORD.

 

(Israel are following Christ.  Do you know that they will bring the gentiles into the kingdom to learn?  They cannot live but can pass through, and no one that defiles or makes an abomination can enter the city's gates.)

 

Isaiah 60:5   Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

 

  Jeremiah 33:14   Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.

  Jeremiah 33:15   In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

  Jeremiah 33:16   In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.

 

 

Thank you Sister, I appreciate such a detailed response.   

 

I would like to go through it with you and point out where I find points of agreement and disagreement.

 

I also believe there will be one truth. I believe there is one truth now.  God has not put forth different truths.

 

 

 

Isaiah 10:20   And it shall come to pass in that day, 

 

 

I know you believe that  "in that day" refers to a future, to us, mellinnium.

 

But what do you base that interpretation on?   This is the problem I have with the way scripture is used to defend and support these beliefs - it looks like you are just pulling a scripture out of thin air and claiming it means something.    Just pulling a scripture out of the bible and saying  "that day" refers to something does not prove it refers to that same something.

 

I'm trying to get at the heart of all this.

 

Can we start with that verse and can you show me why "in that day" must refer to a still future millennium?

[Ezra]

 

I would interpret it the same but in a very symbolic way.

Then you might as well treat the entire Bible is "symbolic" and delusional.  If everything inconvenient is symbolic, pray tell what is the reality behind that symbolism?

 

Ezra, where is the logic in that?

 

The bible is made up of works in several different genres.    Figures of speech are found throughout the scriptures, but some genres are meant to be taken more literally, and others meant to be taken more symbolically.  

 

Going to one extreme, as you did above, doesn't make much sense.

 

I'm glad you could not see any logic in that.  But that is the "logic" you (and others) are using when it comes to Bible prophecy (and the entire Bible is prophetic in that it is Divine revelation, whether foretelling or forthtelling). 

 

My whole point is that you (and others) are totally off track when you (and others) inisist on Revelation as being entirely symbolic.  That is simply not true, and in fact leads to false doctrine, e.g. we are already in the Millennium.  Common sense would tell you that that is utter nonsense, but your commitment to a certain theology compels you to believe nonsense.

 

As I have pointed out, there are definitely images and symbols in Daniel and Revelation, but they have generally been interpreted to reveal the reality, or they can be interpreted as reality in the light of other Scriptures.  The basic principle of Bible interpretation is to take everything in its plain literal sense, unless it is clear that a figure of speech is being used.  God does not complicate things.

[Sister]

Sister, it's been really hard to follow some of the threads here (many are not worthy of attention) ,  particularly when roman pagan ideas are being

quite freely posted and not always addressed and recognized....

then

just a few minutes ago i saw someone 'elecxxxxxxxx' posted that they were restricted to the 'outer court' ,

and I was wondering if

you think it is possible to restrict those ones who promote pagan type worship and religion to the outer court ?   or even just label or identify that "this is pagan" so that

it doesn't (continue?) to deceive many or any....

 

I think your replies have been right on with /in line with/ SCRIPTURE, though just precursory for my part - I haven't really 'tested' or investigated enough to state that unequivocally...

 

that is in direct contrast to those who are posting roman pagan ideas which are directly contrary to SCRIPTURE, and very clearly so even on a quick look see...

 

shalom in yeshua,

jeff

 

Greetings Jeff.

 

I'm a firm believer of defending the truth with the Word of God, our most powerful weapon. 

This is something you would have to ask the moderators, or the owner. They have made the rules and we must respect that.

There are catagories here of discussions for a good reason.  At least that person is not banned and can still have their say and be heard.  I say that is fair. 

In that outer court, any topic can be discussed and defended, so we can bring forth to the table whatever we have been given and present it there in that section.

[Sister]

 

Hi Terese

 

I know these questions are not for me, but I am happy to answer the first one for now and show some proof.  Please read carefully.  I know it's a lot to read, but maybe you have not read these scriptures.  I pray the Lord show you a big part of his plan, and if you don't agree, then that's fine, I'm not about forcing anyone to believe what I say, but at least you can read what the Word of the Lord has to say and make your own mind up.  There are so many scriptures from here and there, and this is what I intended this post for.

 

 

the millennial period  does not require that there be sinlessness in the world to prove that Christ is ruling (with a rod of iron no less)  

 

 

Correct, but what it does prove is that instead of all these different teachings about "the truth" like what we have today, we will have just "one truth" coming out of the kingdom.  The truth will be established (made known to Israel and the gentiles)

 

 Isaiah 62:7   And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

 

Isaiah 10:20   And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

 

I started here with Israel, because the millennium is going to be centered around Israel.  After Armageddon, the Millennium begins, but there is the setting up of the kingdom first and everything in it's order.

I mentioned previously that Christ and the saints will teach Israel, and in turn Israel will go out from the kingdom to the gentiles.  Christ is making everything right now, grounding them and giving them the opportunity to honour and sow good seed in the way it the way it should of been done in the first place.   This time it's going to be a fruitful field with lots of good fruits.

 

 

 

 Zechariah 8:3   Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

  Zechariah 8:8   And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

 

Zechariah 8:14   For thus saith the LORD of hosts; As I thought to punish you, when your fathers provoked me to wrath, saith the LORD of hosts, and I repented not:

Zechariah 8:15   So again have I thought in these days to do well unto Jerusalem and to the house of Judah: fear ye not.

 

In the Kingdom, this is how they will be instructed.

Zechariah 8:16   These are the things that ye shall do; Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbour; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates:

 

Zechariah 8:17   And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the LORD.

Zechariah 8:18   And the word of the LORD of hosts came unto me, saying,

Zechariah 8:19   Thus saith the LORD of hosts; The fast of the fourth month, and the fast of the fifth, and the fast of the seventh, and the fast of the tenth, shall be to the house of Judah joy and gladness, and cheerful feasts; therefore love the truth and peace.

Zechariah 8:20   Thus saith the LORD of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:

Zechariah 8:21   And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also.

Zechariah 8:22   Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.

Zechariah 8:23   Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Zechariah 9:1   The burden of the word of the LORD in the land of Hadrach, and Damascus shall be the rest thereof: when the eyes of man, as of all the tribes of Israel, shall be toward the LORD.

 

 

 

 

Jeremiah 33:6   Behold, I will bring it health and cure, and I will cure them, and will reveal unto them the abundance of peace and truth.

Jeremiah 33:7   And I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them, as at the first.

  Jeremiah 33:8   And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against me.

  Jeremiah 33:9   And it shall be to me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them: and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it.

 

There is no symbolism here, just straight truth and a glimpse of the near future.  How can something so good be true?  We are going to be seeing some wonderful things we never thought possible.

 

Jeremiah 33:10   Thus saith the LORD; Again there shall be heard in this place, which ye say shall be desolate without man and without beast, even in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, that are desolate, without man, and without inhabitant, and without beast,

  Jeremiah 33:11   The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall say, Praise the LORD of hosts: for the LORD is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: and of them that shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of the LORD. For I will cause to return the captivity of the land, as at the first, saith the LORD.

(not animal sacrifices, but sin sacrifices.)

  Jeremiah 33:12   Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Again in this place, which is desolate without man and without beast, and in all the cities thereof, shall be an habitation of shepherds causing their flocks to lie down.

(Instead of ruins, Israel will be turned into fruitful field and Israel will be "the true shepherds" during this time, they will go out to the nations and spread truth. Their flocks are at rest)

 

  Jeremiah 33:13   In the cities of the mountains, in the cities of the vale, and in the cities of the south, and in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, shall the flocks pass again under the hands of him that telleth them, saith the LORD.

 

(Israel are following Christ.  Do you know that they will bring the gentiles into the kingdom to learn?  They cannot live but can pass through, and no one that defiles or makes an abomination can enter the city's gates.)

 

Isaiah 60:5   Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

 

  Jeremiah 33:14   Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.

  Jeremiah 33:15   In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

  Jeremiah 33:16   In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.

 

 

Thank you Sister, I appreciate such a detailed response.   

 

I would like to go through it with you and point out where I find points of agreement and disagreement.

 

I also believe there will be one truth. I believe there is one truth now.  God has not put forth different truths.

 

 

 

Isaiah 10:20   And it shall come to pass in that day, 

 

 

I know you believe that  "in that day" refers to a future, to us, mellinnium.

 

But what do you base that interpretation on?   This is the problem I have with the way scripture is used to defend and support these beliefs - it looks like you are just pulling a scripture out of thin air and claiming it means something.    Just pulling a scripture out of the bible and saying  "that day" refers to something does not prove it refers to that same something.

 

I'm trying to get at the heart of all this.

 

Can we start with that verse and can you show me why "in that day" must refer to a still future millennium?

 

Terese

 

Where it says "in that day" is foretelling us of a time when it shall come to pass.

All those things mentioned have not come to pass ever, so must be future. 

Israel knew of the promises mentioned, but even then were in the dark and could not understand fully, because they did not experience the things which were to come.

We are looking back now at history, and we can see so much clearer.  We know what came next and so forth from those days.  In fact we have come so far that we have nearly seen it all, and know which prophesies have been fulfilled and which ones have not. 

We have to learn to discern where to fit this time frame in, and we can only learn this by looking at all those prophesies speaking of the same thing.

Revelations makes this time frame so much more clearer and pinpoints when.

[Serving]

Hi Therese,

 

 

I don't mean to be difficult, but I see something in this interpretation of the  the New Jerusalem is where the lion and lamb will lie down together, and that the earth will still be unchanged that perhaps you may be surprised to hear,

 

Surprisingly, we would interpret this passage very similarly, but with one very important difference.   They way you are presenting the New Jerusalem and the earth is in a very literal way.

 

I would interpret it the same but in a very symbolic way.  This language in Isaiah is also apocalyptic language and such sections of scripture even in books that are not overall of the apocalyptic genre,  are to be treated exactly the same - imagery is symbolic.

 

As Ezra said, the metaphors always represent the literal .. God throws in the metaphor to mask the true meaning because there are those that He does not want to understand, it is that simple.

 

Like the woman / women example which stands for religions / doctrines, God uses His metaphors to describe literal things in a shrouded way.

 

If I said, "so & so kicked the bucket", I am using an allegory to explain a literal event, that is, someone's death.

 

Death itself is not the allegory, but my statement of, "so & so kicked the bucket" was .. it is the same thing, an allegory used to describe a literal event.

 

That is the whole idea of allegories / metaphors .. to "poetically" describe the literal in such a way that one must first become associated with the "language" being used before cottoning on to the meanings.

 

And the "language" we are to associate ourselves with is God's language / lingo .. He has a very distinct style which is also very consistent & self explanatory throughout His written word, be it in the chapter at hand, or in another book within the bible all together .. nevertheless, the answer is ALWAYS available, all one need do is search for it .. sometimes it can take a long time to find, but the answer is always there for the hungry seeker that knocks at that "door" = (allegory) = the Literal meaning actually meant by said allegory which is that Word.

 

Metaphors aren't designed to explain metaphors .. that would be an endless loop where the true meaning never comes to light and nobody can ever be the wiser .. and since we ALWAYS need the literal to make sense of the metaphor, we can indeed come to the correct interpretation without ever need "imagine" the meanings.

 

Basically, without the literal, metaphors become useless vehicles unable to take their passengers anywhere meaningful except maybe into a perpetual dream state of chaos & pointlessness where reality is neither achieved nor understood.

 

 

•the millennial period  does not require that there be sinlessness in the world to prove that Christ is ruling (with a rod of iron no less) 
•so John saying, affirming Christ is reigning over the Kings of the earth in Rev 1:5 now does not require sinlessness in the world now to be true either

 

Only if one discards the laid out processes plainly described which must take place before that rod of iron reign.

 

You know, I was going to give you an example of all the mentions of the millennial reign the other day, but guess what happened? .. I even decided to start from Isaiah & not even close to being half way through that book, well, there were just so many in Isaiah alone I abandoned the whole idea .. my point being is this .. if one can not discern the abundant examples for oneself found throughout the OT (besides the plainly laid out ones in the NT) then my effort would be pointless .. you see, ONLY God can make one "see" .. I could lead you there yes, but I can never make you be able to "see".

 

Again, this subject is almost everywhere in the OT .. the OT is the solid foods, the prophecies hidden therein make revelations a child's book in comparison, or better said, the OT contains ALL the answers for the book of revelations .. the OT prophecies are a deep well too long neglected, but they are not dry, all the thirsty can still draw from her waters even today .. so I say, DRINK .. and you will find .. it should only take a year or two of constant reading before the ENTIRE picture manifests itself to you .. I know, because I have done it for myself . (PS .. absolutely NO outside influences / opinions allowed EVER .. just YOU & the Holy Spirit guiding lest pollution enters in, and in that display of sincerity of seeking, God WILL reward .. draw close to Him, and He will draw close to you) and that is no metaphor.

 

 

•and this fact would compliment an understanding that the "a thousand years" is to be understood as symbolic of an unknown time, which John and the Christians of his time were in, and we continue to be in;

 

Again, if one discards the mountains of dialogue and laid out processes in favour of a personal leaning .. then the bible can indeed compliment / mean anything to anyone without ever meaning anything at all .. not a good way to go about discerning

"her pages I must say" .. her = metaphor = a very literal book.

 

 

 

And it is heaven's perspective that matters here.

 

This all pefectly fits a symbolic understanding of these apocalyptic passages as pertaining to our present time and reality as seen from heaven's perspective.

 

 

Let me share a story of what I mean by as seen from heaven's perspective.

 

 

I was at a conference where there was a very large gathering of believers.   A friend of mine came from the other side of the country to attend with me, and brought a friend with her.  We stayed together in the same hotel room to share expenses.  Her friend used to be very highly placed in witchcraft in this country.   She had actually gone through a "marriage" ritual to satan.   She was then later to find the truth about Jesus, converted, and had since been living for Christ.   But her involvement in the occult had been so deep that the enemy was doing everything he could to reclaim her, and attacks from the enemy in many different ways was part of the cross she bore.   Because of this,  if one was sensitive enough in the things of God, one could feel this dark presence trying to hold onto her, and when you first glanced at her, you would not think she could be a christian.  But she was very much so a child of God.

 

This seemed very incomprehensible to me.

 

We arranged a private luncheon with a small group of friends and during this luncheon as we discussed the things of God, she started speaking.  The wisdom and depth of her understanding of spiritual things amazed us.   And while she was talking something happened.   She became transfigured before me.   I no longer saw her a we see with earthly eyes, I saw her as God saw  her, as heaven saw her - the best that I can describe this is she turned golden with golden light shimmering around her and through her and all I could do was watch - she was so beautiful in God's eyes.   I have never forgotten that,  for God gave me a glimpse into how heaven sees each and everyone of us.   

 

John, in the book of Revelation, is seeing us from heaven's perspective.   And from heaven's perspective the Church is this beautiful shimmering city of gold and precious jewels and  light.   And this is true right now, this very moment.  

 

Therese, what you are really saying WITHOUT realizing is this, "Earthly events are dictating the heavenly perspective"

 

NO .. it is a very sneaky philosophical argument which is in reality nothing but circular reasoning which never goes anywhere but in circles .. you see, there is no heavenly "perspective", only heavenly "dictates".. WE are to put the words & meanings into perspective, NOT God .. God is the One dictating .. we are the one's "deciphering" and putting into "perspective".

 

Therese, God is explaining in a way WE can understand .. so the message is for US to understand, an earthly perspective of a heavenly dictation .. so the perspective is for the earthly believers to comprehend the heavenly "language" meant for earth dwellers where these events are to literally occur ..

 

Do not forget this one thing .. that "city" comes down to earth .. not the other way around.

 

In conclusion, after these many words, the main point all along is to do with allegories = literal things / events.

 

And allegories without reality (literal) = meaningless nothings where nothing means anything any dreamer wishes to imagine / believe without ever experiencing it in the real & literal world we live in .. did not God warn us of vain philosophies of man?

 

They certainly have an appearance of knowledge, but under honest scrutiny based in literal reality .. well .. they fall way short of the mark.

 

Thanks Therese.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

 

To my knowledge, Ezra is the only one putting forth the "absolutely no sin" notion. He hasn't substantiated it and I doubt we'll hear from him in a way that directly addresses the issue.

We should take careful note of this passage (Isa 11:1-9) and particularly what is stated in verses 4,9,10. There is no reason whatsoever that we should not take this passage in its plain literal sense.  How can Christ maintain perfect peace and perfect righteousness with sinners perpetrating sin and evil on earth?

¹ And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

² And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

³ And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

⁴ But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

⁵ And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

⁶ The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

⁷ And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

⁸ And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

⁹ They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

¹⁰ And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

 

1. All the wicked will be literally slain (destroyed) (v 4)

2. None will hurt or destroy, because the whole earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD (v 9).  This is an experiential knowledge.

3. It will be a time of perfect and glorious rest (v 10. See Isa 14:5)

 

The combination of perfect righteousness and perfect peace is further stated in Isa 32:15-18:

Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.

¹⁶ Then judgment shall dwell in the wilderness, and righteousness remain in the fruitful field.

¹⁷ And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.

¹⁸ And my people shall dwell in a peaceable habitation, and in sure dwellings, and in quiet resting places;

 

 

There is nothing in what you've stated that says that there will be absolutely no sin, only that sin will be dealt with righteously.  Righteousness and peace will prevail, unlike the world we live in now.  I didn't see the terms "perfect peace" or "perfect righteousness" or "perfect" anything anywhere in the verses you quoted.  Seems like an attempt to bias the reader...or convince yourself.

 

Have you thought through the implications of people being born of Adam and living perfect lives of no sin?  You seem to be supporting such a notion.

 

While there will be sin during the 1000 years, it will be dealt with in a righteous manner and not allowed to flourish as it does today.  It will be Christ's government with the saints reigning with Him and they will enforce His mandates according to the rod of iron.  The rod of iron is necessary...because sin will need to be dealt with to keep it in check.

[Sister]

These scriptures show harmony with all the other scriptures I have previously given concerning the Millennium.  There is a consistent theme shown in so many chapters.  We have to put those dots together.

 

  Jeremiah 3:11   And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.

  Jeremiah 3:12   Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.

  Jeremiah 3:13   Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.

  Jeremiah 3:14   Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
(Remnants)

  Jeremiah 3:15   And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

  Jeremiah 3:16   And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.

  Jeremiah 3:17   At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

  Jeremiah 3:18   In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.

  Jeremiah 3:19   But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me.
 

[thereselittleflower]

I just don't understand -  why do people insist on misusing the word "literal"  ?

 

metaphor and literal are antonyms.   Not synonyms.   You don't look for a literal meaning of a metaphor.  That is a complete misuse of the english language.

 

You look for the intended meaning.    Intended has nothing to do with literal.

 

Literal only refers to the strict use of a word.   It naver has anything to do with the metaphorical use of a word.

 

 

Serving, you said

 

"As Ezra said, the metaphors always represent the literal .. God throws in the metaphor to mask the true meaning because there are those that He does not want to understand, it is that simple."

 

"That is the whole idea of allegories / metaphors .. to "poetically" describe the literal in such a way that one must first become associated with the "language" being used before cottoning on to the meanings."

 

 

You are using "literal" and "true" as synonyms here when speaking of figurative, symbolic language.

 

They are not synonyms used in the way they are being used here.  They are only synonyms in a very narrow and limited manner which does not apply to the use of metaphors and other figurative, symbolic language.

 

The meaning of "true" in which literal appears as a synonym is

 

existing in fact and not merely as a possibility <the true scope of this environmental problem is far greater than anyone imagined>

 

restricted to or based on fact <that news story is completely true, for the station released a list of its sources to back it up>

 

A metaphor is not existing in fact or restricted to or based on fact.  It is based on something symbolic or figurative.  The plain strict meaning of the words do not apply.

 

It is raining cats and dogs.    There is no "fact" that cats and dogs are falling from the sky.  

 

 

"literal" =/= "true"

 

The two words have nothing to do with each other when it comes to symbolic, figurative language.

 

 

Misusing literal the way you did, and others have done, makes it impossible to have a real conversation.  When people misuse words like this, it creates all sorts of confusion and there is no communication or understanding.

 

 

 Metaphor is the antithesis of literal:

 

Antithesis:

 

a contrast or opposition between two things.

 

 

 

You cannot find a literal meaning of a metaphor.  

 

 

That is not how the English language works.

 

And this is how the misuse of language results in wrong conclusions.

 

 

 

I would take what you said above and restate it this way:

 

 

"As Ezra said, the metaphors always represent the REAL.. God throws in the metaphor to mask the true meaning because there are those that He does not want to understand, it is that simple."

 

"That is the whole idea of allegories / metaphors .. to "poetically" describe REALITY in such a way that one must first become associated with the "language" being used before cottoning on to the meanings."

 

 

"Real" and "literal" are not synonyms.

 

 

When stated this way,  I 100% agree.

 

 

I think we need to get past this point before we can actually talk about what is real and what is metaphor.

[Guest shiloh357]

Littleflower,

 

 

YOU  are the one who is misusing "literal."   We do look for literal meanings behind metaphors.  For example:   Jesus used the metaphor of the sheep pen and said that he was the door of the sheep pen. Does Jesus want us to think he is made of wood and hinges???  Of course not. The LITERAL meaning is that Jesus is the entrance into His sheep fold.  If we want to be his sheep, we have to go through him.  That's how metaphors work.  We examine the context to determine the intended meaning which is the literal meaning Jesus intended for us to get out of that metaphor.

 

Littleflwoer, the reason that no one, and I mean, NO ONE on this board is agreeing with you is because YOU are the one who is wrong.   You don't understand  literary analysis.   You are always wrong because you have to redefine what key words mean in order to promote your sloppy theology.  No one accepts what you are saying because we know what literal means.   You are obscuring what it means because you have an agenda to force certain things in the Bible to mean what YOU want then to mean, and no one  buying it.

 

Real and literal, for the purpose of literary analysis are synonymous.   Literal in terms of the literal meaning of the word is one thing.    We all get that.But "literal"  in terms of hermeneutics is actually a wholly different concept. It doesn't mean the same thing as "literal" means when you are discussion  lexical definition of a single word. Interpretation is only ever concerned with getting to the literal meaning of something.   For example:

 

If 3,000 years from now, and the US is a heap of rubble under 50 feet of dirt and future archeologists are digging and they find a plaque that says, "I love to see Old Glory paint the wind."  Without an understanding of our history and culture, how will they decipher what it means?   They have to  study and dig some more to get at the answer.   They are after the literal meaning.   Simply knowing the literal meanings of the words doesn't help.   Because if we went by the literal definitions of the words, it would be saying, "I love to see aged honor apply colored pigment to the wind."

 

So what they want it is intended (literal)  literary meaning.   Upon further research, they would discover that "old Glory"  literally means, "the American flag"   They would discover that the phrase "paint the wind"  is a metaphor that literally means "waving in the wind."      So the metaphorical phrase has a literal meaning.   It means, "I love to see the American flag as it waves in the wind." 

 

So yes, interpretation of figurative devices like metaphors is only ever interested in the literal meaning of the devices.

[thereselittleflower]

Shiloh, there is no point in discussing this with you further since you refuse to use the English language correctly.

 

I don't understand where some here have learned to misuse the English language in this fashion, but if you want to communicate with people on the outside of your dispensationalist group, it would be most beneficial to learn to use the English language correctly.

 

I have already provided you personally with the correct grammatical use of the phrase  "literal meaning" in the English language along with links so you can see for yourself it is never used in the English language when dealing with the meaning of symbolic, figurative text.   

 

 

 

You have chosen to ignore this correction.

 

 

 

 

Making up definitions and relationships of words that do not actually exist in the real world of the English language and its proper use, then behaving as though you are an authority to do so, makes me shake my head in disbelief, especially after I have actually demonstrated that your claim of a synonymous relationship between "real" and "literal" doesn't exist in the English language.

 

This goes further to proving you don't actually read my posts, or otherwise why would you make a claim that a simply review of dictionary entries would so easily negate and which I have already provided to you before?

 

 

 

Again, you have chosen to ignore this correction.

 

 

 

You claimed

 

"Real and literal, for the purpose of literary analysis are synonymous."

 

 

This is false which I have already shown to you to be false in the thread linked to above.  To make this more clear, let's explore this claim of yours further:

 

 

Here are various definitions of REAL and their SYNONYMS

 

being exactly as appears or as claimed <this shirt is real silk, not polyester>

Synonyms bona fide, certifiable, certified, dinkum [Australian & New Zealand], echt, genuine,honest, pukka (also pucka), real, right, sure-enough, true

 

existing in fact and not merely as a possibility <asked her parents if the Tooth Fairy was real>

Synonyms concrete, de facto, effective, existent, factual, genuine, real, sure-enough, true, very

 

free from any intent to deceive or impress others <real folk who don't put on airs>

Synonyms artless, genuine, honest, ingenuous, innocent, naive (or naïve), natural, real, simple,sincere, true, unaffected, unpretending, unpretentious

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/real[adjective]

 

 

 

Never once is "literal" found to be a synonym of the word "real"

 

"Literal" is not even in the list of related words for  "Real."

 

 

 

If one cannot use simple logic and deductive reasoning when it comes to grammar and proper word usage, and accept correction when it has been shown to them they are misusing words, then what hope is there for one to use simple logic and deductive reasoning on theological matters to reach reasonable conclusions?

 

 

 

Right now the point  we are at in this discussion is

 

 

"Do not pass Go.  Do not collect $200."     

 

 

 

It is a gross misuse, distortion and abuse of the English language to claim, and even more so  to persistently claim in the face of clear evidence to the contrary, we look for literal meaning of symbolic, figurative words and phrases.