High minimum wage doesnt work after all

[thereselittleflower]

 

 

So  you do believe wages should be fair.

 

 

 

what do you consider a fair wage?

 

 

 

At this point I'm not even addressing what a fair wage would be, but simply the concept of a fair wage, and the question: Are workers entitled to a fair wage?

[Guest shiloh357]

Liberals have never understood the how economics work and we see that in how they act when they have all of the levers of power in DC.

 

They seem to think that business owners are swimming in a sea of money, when they are not.   Many business owners are not even turning much of a profit in the first two or three years because they are paying off business loans and have a lot of up front expenses.

 

Even when they make a profit, it is a major juggling act because you can't break even and survive.  You have to be profitable and that means that you have a limited pool of funds from which to make payroll.   The Left has been really good at making people believe they are being cheated by their employers, when that is not the case.   Employers have profit margins they have to maintain in order to remain solvent as a business.  

 

Onelight made a good point that raising the min wage only makes prices go up which defeats the purpose in raising the min wage.   The raise price reduces the min wage worker's buying power and means that while he is making more money, his cost of living went up too, meaning that he really didn't gain anything.  He is still in the same shape he was in before.  And in fact, is probably worse off since his employer likely cut his hours in order to maintain the cost/profit ratio in order to keep the company a float.

 

But explaining that simple logic to a Liberal is next to impossible.

[ayin jade]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Businesses are not obligated to the employees beyond the benefits and wages they promised when those people were hired.  Raises or salary increases are at the discretion of the company.  That's just the cold hard truth about business.  

 

If you do more than your paid to do, you will eventually get paid more for what you  do.

Maybe or get a promotion but don't hold your breath.

 

 

You are also not owed anymore than was offered and agreed to. It seems that these days folks assume their employers owe them more than was agreed to. 

 

 

 

Anything can be taken too far.  Surely you wouldn't include sweat shops here.

 

 

Can you explain this one. The sweat shop thing don't make sense. 

 

 

 

Do you believe that  a sweat shop employee is not owed more than was agreed to?

 

 

I was talking about things in the us. Not overseas. 

 

 

 

So  you do believe wages should be fair.

 

 

Your view of whats fair and mine greatly differ. You think its fair to be more socialist and force employers to pay more to their employees despite agreed upon wages. I think that is theft.

 

 

How do you know what my view of fair is?

 

You are assuming much my dear.

 

And you avoided my statement.

 

 

So I will ask you,  putting aside exactly what a fair wage would look like, do you agree in principal that a laborer is entitled to a fair wage?

 

 

 

Its a bit laughable that you claim Im avoiding a question when you have avoided many questions Ive asked in various threads. So much so that others have commented on your lack of answering questions. 

 

I have answered your question already.

[thereselittleflower]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Businesses are not obligated to the employees beyond the benefits and wages they promised when those people were hired.  Raises or salary increases are at the discretion of the company.  That's just the cold hard truth about business.  

 

If you do more than your paid to do, you will eventually get paid more for what you  do.

Maybe or get a promotion but don't hold your breath.

 

 

You are also not owed anymore than was offered and agreed to. It seems that these days folks assume their employers owe them more than was agreed to. 

 

 

 

Anything can be taken too far.  Surely you wouldn't include sweat shops here.

 

 

Can you explain this one. The sweat shop thing don't make sense. 

 

 

 

Do you believe that  a sweat shop employee is not owed more than was agreed to?

 

 

I was talking about things in the us. Not overseas. 

 

 

 

So  you do believe wages should be fair.

 

 

Your view of whats fair and mine greatly differ. You think its fair to be more socialist and force employers to pay more to their employees despite agreed upon wages. I think that is theft.

 

 

How do you know what my view of fair is?

 

You are assuming much my dear.

 

And you avoided my statement.

 

 

So I will ask you,  putting aside exactly what a fair wage would look like, do you agree in principal that a laborer is entitled to a fair wage?

 

 

 

Its a bit laughable that you claim Im avoiding a question when you have avoided many questions Ive asked in various threads. So much so that others have commented on your lack of answering questions. 

 

I have answered your question already.

 

 

 

Sigh  - I don't think I've deliberately avoided your questions unless they were asked to avoid answering a question of mine, and to do so would move us off what I was asking, so I was waiting to answer yours in turn.

 

If you feel I have avoided any specific questions you would like me to address, please send me links in a private message.   In the last couple of weeks I have had a great deal going on in my life.   - among other things: planning two weddings, a daughter in a car accident, now ending a relationship after her boyfriend seriously threatened to kill someone out of jealousy, house remodeling, among many other things including trying to get doctors to take my own health issues seriously and having to hold their hands to do so - forgive me if I lose track of threads and questions you've asked while trying to get  you to answer mine.  There is nothing personal going on here.

 

And no you haven't answered my question already, you've danced around it, but if you choose not to directly answer it  then that's ok.

[thereselittleflower]

 

Liberals have never understood the how economics work and we see that in how they act when they have all of the levers of power in DC.

 

They seem to think that business owners are swimming in a sea of money, when they are not.   Many business owners are not even turning much of a profit in the first two or three years because they are paying off business loans and have a lot of up front expenses.

 

Even when they make a profit, it is a major juggling act because you can't break even and survive.  You have to be profitable and that means that you have a limited pool of funds from which to make payroll.   The Left has been really good at making people believe they are being cheated by their employers, when that is not the case.   Employers have profit margins they have to maintain in order to remain solvent as a business.  

 

Onelight made a good point that raising the min wage only makes prices go up which defeats the purpose in raising the min wage.   The raise price reduces the min wage worker's buying power and means that while he is making more money, his cost of living went up too, meaning that he really didn't gain anything.  He is still in the same shape he was in before.  And in fact, is probably worse off since his employer likely cut his hours in order to maintain the cost/profit ratio in order to keep the company a float.

 

But explaining that simple logic to a Liberal is next to impossible.

 

 

 

Shiloh, are you saying the concept of a fair wage is a liberal one and not a christian one?

 

 

Are you saying the christian concept is that of unfair wages?

[other one]

 

 

 

So  you do believe wages should be fair.

 

 

 

what do you consider a fair wage?

 

 

 

At this point I'm not even addressing what a fair wage would be, but simply the concept of a fair wage, and the question: Are workers entitled to a fair wage

 

Well, how can I answer that question if I don't understand what you are asking...      does a fair wage include a share in the profits....   I would say no because the worker is not putting up the risk of financing the business........             if you mean such as happened in the late 1800's and early 1900's when a very very small group of people conspired to keep wages low over an entire market, then I would say yes they do deserve a fair wage.

 

That is what kicked off the Union movement.    A very few very rich people conspired to not pay people what jobs were worth because they could.....   but as history records, there is remedy for this.  

 

Question now would be if the workers have the sense not to push things too far to the point of putting the business into bankruptcy, and that's currently happening.   Then everyone looses.

 

So, what is your definition of a fair wage.

[thereselittleflower]

 

 

 

 

So  you do believe wages should be fair.

 

 

 

what do you consider a fair wage?

 

 

 

At this point I'm not even addressing what a fair wage would be, but simply the concept of a fair wage, and the question: Are workers entitled to a fair wage

 

Well, how can I answer that question if I don't understand what you are asking...      does a fair wage include a share in the profits....   I would say no because the worker is not putting up the risk of financing the business........             if you mean such as happened in the late 1800's and early 1900's when a very very small group of people conspired to keep wages low over an entire market, then I would say yes they do deserve a fair wage.

 

That is what kicked off the Union movement.    A very few very rich people conspired to not pay people what jobs were worth because they could.....   but as history records, there is remedy for this.  

 

Question now would be if the workers have the sense not to push things too far to the point of putting the business into bankruptcy, and that's currently happening.   Then everyone looses.

 

So, what is your definition of a fair wage.

 

 

 

It seems we are thinking along the same lines.

 

The concept of a fair and just wage is very much christian regardless of how some want to make it into a liberal ideology.

 

The scripture tell  us   

 

Luk 10:7

for the labourer is worthy of his hire.

 

 

Worthy translating the Greek word "axios" in this passage means:

 

of one who has merited anything worthy

 

 

This is translated into the English word Worthy which  means:

 

deserving effort, attention, or respect.

 

 

If the wage paid does not properly show respect of the worker, can it be considered fair?

 

This is one reason why the government of the US has defined sweat shops and created laws to protect workers from being unfairly being taken advantage of, and continues to try to do so with with minimum wage laws.   Do they succeed?    The whole situation right now is a complicated mess, and every time they try to make things better, it's going to impact groups negatively because you can't change one aspect of a system and not provide for how it impacts all other aspects of a system and expect a good outcome.

[Guest shiloh357]

Littleflower, if a person agrees to work for someone else, at the wages being offered, that person has no legitimate grounds to accuse the employer of being unfair.   If the employer pays what he and the employee agreed to, then the wage is fair.

 

"Fair wage"  should not be tied to a particular dollar amount.

 

All the Bible requires is that employers pay what they agreed to pay and not change the rules once the work has been done.   That is honest and fair.

 

If someone doesn't like what they're getting paid, they can get up off their butt and find another job that pays more, otherwise stop complaining and just do their job.

 

And btw, "fair wage"   cuts both ways.      It is not fair to the employer to be forced to pay wages that his profit margin cannot absorb.   Many of these fair wage people only look at this from the vantage point of the burger flippers who are whining that they aren't getting paid enough.    A fair wage has to be understood in terms of the limited pool of $$$ that an employer has for payroll.

 

Raises and higher wages should be based on two things:  Merit and affordability.    Lazy employees who do the bare minimum required should never get raises.  Good employees who go the extra mile, who have a good attitude, who make the customers happy and which in turn, makes the company profitable should be rewarded, but those rewards are limited to what a company can afford to pay.  So what's "fair"  should be governed by those two principles.

 

Make your company more money and you will likely get raises because the company wants to keep good employees and they will find a way to weed out the losers.  And that is completely fair.

 

Fair wages, as defined by liberals isn't the same concept as we see in Scripture.   "A worker is worthy of his hire,"  Jesus said.  That is the merit system.   You do less you are worth less and get paid less (or fired).  You do more, you are worth more and get paid more. 

 

That's the Bible way, not the liberal, loony leftist way.

[tigger398]

I have a feeling when min wage goes up were gonna be right back to where we started in this economy.

[udx]

I have a feeling when min wage goes up were gonna be right back to where we started in this economy.

I think we are going to be worse than we started in this economy and unemployment would go up.

 

Increasing minimum wage would double the cost of labor for most lowly paid workers which many full time good paying jobs have been converted to. It would give more incentive for industries to find alternative ways to reduce the need for the workers that have inherent value of less than $15, for example with robots. 

If a person is labor value is only $8, a mandate of $15 minimum wage would just prevent the person who's only worth $8/hr from working, the employer would just use alternative ways to fill the gap. For example, it gives the employer more incentive to automate labor with computers and robots bring the cost of labor closer to what it cost to automate, and the employer would choose to automate and eliminate the job for a human. More jobs would be come extinct.