Territorial Spirits

[refugepsa91]

Balance, balance, balance. That is the bottem line....I don't go looking for them (demons) I believe they can wreak havoc if allowed...but I know in my heart that God HAS NOT called me to cast out demons.

And we have to be very careful to make sure "babes" know this....goodness we don't want every christian to think that they can do this. As Dad Ernie said above it was a "special annointing" Not something to be claimed and bandied about by every believer. To those who don't have this calling...like me...I pray for protection for me and my family....God will not forsake you, if He didn't give you this power through Jesus' name, then He will watch over you.

I think eric and I are essentially coming from the same place here...you all have to understand that the church I came from claimed that if you stubbed your toe, that you needed to rebuke the devil Ummmm I stubbed my toe because I didn't watch where I was going. I do that alot

Again Balance....hope that made some sense...

Love and Blessings,

Angel

umm by the way the toe stubbing is a true story...I was not making up a example with that one.

[Ovedya]

I was actually going to respond your question earlier this morning, but decided to wait until a few other chimed in.

I expected that the "Prince of Persia" reference would be used to answer the question, and I was right (Not braging, but I think it's really the only one that has been used traditionally to explain this teaching).

The idea that Satan has demons in charge of certain nations, regions, citites, towns, persons, etc., comes from traditional teachings in Christianity. It does not come directly from the Bible.

In Daniel 10 there is no doubt that Daniel was visited by an angel. But what I believe is that, despite traditional interpretation of these verses, the prince of Persia was an actual prince; not a demon, and not Satan. Notice that the first verse of the chapter talks about "the third year of Cyrus king of Persia..." From the second half of verse 1 to the end of the chapter Daniel is describing his vision of the "certain man" (v. 5 - we assume an angel) and his conversation with him.

Since the first verse talks about the actual king of Persia, why would it shift to a spiritual prince of Persia in verses 13 and 20? I think that we make certain assumptions about visitations by angels when we come to the Bible. That is mainly because of the various visions of angels that are described in Scripture. But let me pose something to you saints that might give you another way of looking at it. Perhaps this angel was sent to the earth as a messenger and traveled on land as a normal human would. In the New Testament Paul talks about entertaining angel unawares. This tells me that angels can look just like humans. In fact, verse 5 confirms that certain angelic beings can look like humans.

A lot of these kinds of ideas come from traditional teachings and not directly from the Bible itself. And in fact, some of these teachings have their source in various superstitions or fascinations. The Bible does not directly teach that there is an organized structure of demons watching over particular regions of the planet. So I tend not to be very concerned over whether there is such a structure. To me it seems logical that Satan has some kind of organization designed to frustrate God's move on the earth. But I don't dwell on it.

Now, here is something to think about - something for you to "chew on":

Daniel 10:6 describes the angel that visited Daniel as follows "...His body also was like beryl, His face as the appearance of lightning, His eyes like torches of fire, and His arms and His feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of His words like the sound of a multitude."

Check out how the Bible describes the Lord:

"And His head and hair were as white as wool, as snow, and His eyes were like a flame of fire; and His feet were like shining bronze, as having been fired in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters" (Rev. 1:13-14)

"And His eyes are a flame of fire..." (Rev. 19:12)

"And the glory of the God of Israel was there, coming from the way of the east, and His voice was like the sound of many waters, and the earth was illuminated with His glory." (Ezek. 43:2)

Now, is it possible that the angel that visited Daniel was actually a pre-incarnation of Christ? Consider this: Abraham was visited by a pre-incarnation of Lord, and he also described his visitors as men. In fact, were there not three visitors to Abraham? The Lord and two others? Take a look at Daniel 12:5-6

[Budman]

Greetings Eric,

You appear not to have any respect for those powers and principalities. I am reminded of:

Jude 1:9-10 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. 10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

You don't seem to understand that angels, even fallen angels, are massive, powerful, glorious entities. When John was confronted in Revelation with an Angel, he fell on his face as though dead and for certain HE KNEW BETTER. But the Angel corrected John saying that he was only a fellow servant.

You are speaking from a very naive perspective. Right now Satan knows his days are short and he is doing his best with his minions to bring down Christiandom, and in fact is behind the "great apostacy" that will occur in the last days. In the case you don't know what that is, it is the "organized church" falling away from God and no longer listening to sound doctrine.

Don't be fooled, you are not as powerful as you think you are. Jesus gave a special anointing to His disciples to cast out demons, yet there was a time when His disciples came back who couldn't cast out a demon. Jesus said "This kind takes much prayer and fasting." How often do you pray and fast Eric? Have you ensured you are wearing the "full armor of God" every day of your life?

I suggest you be more respectful for things you don't understand.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Wow! I felt chastised when I read that, and it wasn't even directed to me!

You ROCK, DE!

warm regards

-bud

[Dad Ernie]

In Daniel 10 there is no doubt that Daniel was visited by an angel.  But what I believe is that, despite traditional interpretation of these verses, the prince of Persia was an actual prince; not a demon, and not Satan.  Notice that the first verse of the chapter talks about "the third year of Cyrus king of Persia..."  From the second half of verse 1 to the end of the chapter Daniel is describing his vision of the "certain man" (v. 5 - we assume an angel) and his conversation with him.

Greetings Ovedya,

A mere mortal prince could not have withstood Gabriel for 21 days. It took Michael, the Archangel, who is the "prince over Israel" to confront the Prince of Persia to allow Gabriel to go on His way. See below for what else Michael does:

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

The Prince of Persia, as well as other "princes" in Daniel, were very powerful demonic entities.

I once had a friend who could actually see the powers that resided over the Principality of the Panama Canal. They are fierce, very powerful beings.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Ovedya]

Hmmmm....

Is there anywhere that Daniel says the angel is Gabriel? Also, Jacob wrestled the angel, who is believed to have been Gabriel, and he overcame him.

[Dad Ernie]

Is there anywhere that Daniel says the angel is Gabriel?  Also, Jacob wrestled the angel, who is believed to have been Gabriel, and he overcame him.

Greetings Ovedya,

Daniel 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

Daniel 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

Luke 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

Gabriel is the "announcer" of God's Holy Angels. I suspect that where we see the trumpets blowing, that is also Gabriel.

I had never questioned the story of Jacob and the Angel before, but as I looked again at it, I found it strange. Gabriel, being the announcer, didn't seem to have a mission to Jacob that night to tell him anything. It was also night, which seems strange and he wanted to go, it seems, before daybreak. He made mention that Jacob had power with God and with "men", and it was a "man" (which could be messenger??) with whom Jacob wrestled. So I hesitate to draw any conclusions from that story.

Sorry, I can't be of more help, perhaps someone else might understand it more clearly.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Budman]

I had never questioned the story of Jacob and the Angel before, but as I looked again at it, I found it strange. Gabriel, being the announcer, didn't seem to have a mission to Jacob that night to tell him anything. It was also night, which seems strange and he wanted to go, it seems, before daybreak. He made mention that Jacob had power with God and with "men", and it was a "man" (which could be messenger??) with whom Jacob wrestled. So I hesitate to draw any conclusions from that story.

Here is a Q&A from Watchmen Bible Study Group.

Did Jacob wrestle with Jesus, and who was Melchizedec?

Yes it was God that Jacob wrestled with, though I suspect God was going easy on him (ha-ha). Below is the Scripture. You will notice that word translated "man" is not "ish" as in regular every day man, but rather, "Enowsh" which is a mighty man, a just man, a man above men so to speak (The Companion Bible has an excellent appendix on this called "synonymous words for man "). It is simply saying that God came in the flesh and dealt with Jacob. When God is in the flesh, who is He? You are correct, Jesus (Yehoshua - there are various spellings for this word but you know that it means "God with us"). Melchizedec was also Jesus (Melchisedec (Greek) {Heb 7:1-5}) and spelled: (Melchizedec (Hebrew) {Gen 14:18-20})

Gen 32:24-30

24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man [Enowsh] with him until the breaking of the day.

25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.

28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. (KJV)

Peniel: Hebrew word #6439 Penuw'el or (more properly,) Peniy'el- Penuel or Peniel = "facing God."

warm regards

-bud

[Guest Jacee]

You know if you study the names of the enemies of Israel, you will get the spirit of the nation. Is also a good way to recognise the enemy now. I would call that territorial.

Edited February 2, 2005 by Jacee

[eric]

Greetings Eric,

You appear not to have any respect for those powers and principalities. I am reminded of:

Jude 1:9-10 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. 10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

You don't seem to understand that angels, even fallen angels, are massive, powerful, glorious entities. When John was confronted in Revelation with an Angel, he fell on his face as though dead and for certain HE KNEW BETTER. But the Angel corrected John saying that he was only a fellow servant.

You are speaking from a very naive perspective. Right now Satan knows his days are short and he is doing his best with his minions to bring down Christiandom, and in fact is behind the "great apostacy" that will occur in the last days. In the case you don't know what that is, it is the "organized church" falling away from God and no longer listening to sound doctrine.

Don't be fooled, you are not as powerful as you think you are. Jesus gave a special anointing to His disciples to cast out demons, yet there was a time when His disciples came back who couldn't cast out a demon. Jesus said "This kind takes much prayer and fasting." How often do you pray and fast Eric? Have you ensured you are wearing the "full armor of God" every day of your life?

I suggest you be more respectful for things you don't understand.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Dad Ernie., up until this post I've always held in as high a respect as anyone on this board and after reading about 90% of your posts have agreed generally with all you have said, especially in the eschatology forums. Howvever after reading this last effort, you have hit rock bottom in my estimation as far as I am concerned.

What gives you the right to call me naive and disrespectful just because you don't happen to agree with my viewpoint of satan and demonic warfare? What gives you the right to question my praying and fasting habits. Who are you to tell me I don't understand? Your remarks are rude and distasteful and offensive.

You cited the time when Jesus chided His disciples for being unable to cast out demons. How could they? Jesus had not been crucified at that time and they were neither covered by the blood of Christ or received in the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

Well I have DE and because of that I have His promise that I need to fear nobody or nothing. I certainly dont need some special deliverance minister to cast any demons out of me, because I have been set free by the Son on man and when you are set free by the son of man you are free indeed.

So please stop being so pompous and give a few more people a bit more credit for their opnions without you telling them they dont know what they are talking about, which is quite often the case with you. Even you dont know it all.

cheers,

eric.

[Guest koni]

Yes, i believe that there are territorial spirits over cities, and certain places. I also don't believe that you can dispell any enemy by ignoring thier existance. They have to be dealt with, otherwise they stay and have thier way. Just imagine what would happen to our troops over in Iraq if they just simply chose to ignor the presence of the enemy and just relied on president Bush to keep them safe.