Russia is not Rosh.

[OakWood]

We've discussed this before but I don't believe that it has been a topic for a thread.

Ezekiel 38-39 predicts a future aggressor who attacks Israel. This is a coalition of nations including Persia (Iran) and Libya. Many people think that Russia will be involved because of a misunderstanding of the word 'Rosh'.

Rosh is a Hebrew word meaning leader, king or prince. It can also mean 'day' as in the leading or starting day in a holiday or festival (such as Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year).

Therefore in the book of Ezekiel I believe that the expression 'prince of Rosh' means the leading figure or Prince of princes which is Gog. An alternative theory is that Rosh is the nation descended from the Rosh mentioned in Genesis but we have very little evidence as to where Rosh lived or settled.

The prince of Rosh is also described as the chief prince of Meshek and Tubal. Meshek is located in the Caucasus region and while some of this territory may belong to modern Russia, most of it is located in areas corresponding to Armenia and Georgia and also to the Muslim territories of Chechnya, Dagestan and possibly Azerbaijan. All three areas being politically unstable and rife with Islamic insurgents and terrorists.

The location of Tubal is unknown. Theories include Spain, and another region in the Caucasus (possibly Georgia).

The modern name of Russia comes from a viking word 'Rus' and the name dates back only to a time many hundreds of years after the book of Ezekiel was written. Hebrew prophets and the Israelites would never have heard of it.

[Ezra]

 

The modern name of Russia comes from a viking word 'Rus' and the name dates back only to a time many hundreds of years after the book of Ezekiel was written. Hebrew prophets and the Israelites would never have heard of it. 

Hebrew prophets did not need to hear about anything from ordinary sources. They heard directly from God.  So that argument does not apply. In Hebrew the name "Gog" means a northern nation.  It is generally accepted that "Gog" represents a northern confederacy headed up by Russia (and "Magog" the leader of that confederation), which will include all the nations around the Black Sea. In addition to that we have Iran (Persia), Libya, Turkey, Ethiopia, "and many people with thee" (Ezek 38:6).  

Russia has always dreamed of establishing an empire and that dream is currently being perpetuated by Vladimir Putin. The Soviet Union was undoubtedly an empire, and all that Russia has been doing since the breakup of the USSR is to try and re-establish it. If Russia were to invade Europe today, they could easily take it over. NATO is a joke.

[missmuffet]

Gog and Magog.I do believe that there are two different Gog and Magog events.

[OakWood]

 

The modern name of Russia comes from a viking word 'Rus' and the name dates back only to a time many hundreds of years after the book of Ezekiel was written. Hebrew prophets and the Israelites would never have heard of it. 

Hebrew prophets did not need to hear about anything from ordinary sources. They heard directly from God.  So that argument does not apply. In Hebrew the name "Gog" means a northern nation.  It is generally accepted that "Gog" represents a northern confederacy headed up by Russia (and "Magog" the leader of that confederation), which will include all the nations around the Black Sea. In addition to that we have Iran (Persia), Libya, Turkey, Ethiopia, "and many people with thee" (Ezek 38:6).  

Russia has always dreamed of establishing an empire and that dream is currently being perpetuated by Vladimir Putin. The Soviet Union was undoubtedly an empire, and all that Russia has been doing since the breakup of the USSR is to try and re-establish it. If Russia were to invade Europe today, they could easily take it over. NATO is a joke.

Yes, the argument does apply. Whether they heard it from God or not, the prophecy was for the Israelites. They had to understand it otherwise the book of Ezekiel may as well call all the nations listed by their modern names instead of using terms such as Persia and Gomer and Mesech. If the word Rosh was used to mean Russia then why do we not see the names 'Turkey' and 'Iran' being used?

And what do you mean, 'it is generally accepted'? Generally accepted by whom? Generally accepted by those who think that Rosh means Russia?

Supposing Russia does want to recreate the Soviet Union. Where does Israel come into all of this? And what makes you think that Putin wants to create an Empire? What countries has he invaded so far apart from the Ukraine? The invasion of the Ukraine occurred because the naval ports in Crimea were not being used to defend Russia's southern borders as the terms of the separation agreement requested. Putin merely seized back the Crimea. He has not annexed the Ukraine.

[other one]

When we add Russia into the Ezekiel war, we should keep in mind that Putin is a life long Orthodox Christian and is very familiar with Old Testament Prophecies....     if it is to happen during his tenure as the head of Russia, I would think that it is Turkey and not Russia that will lead the charge against Israel.       I just don't see Putin as that stupid....

[Ezra]

 Yes, the argument does apply. Whether they heard it from God or not, the prophecy was for the Israelites.

Bible prophecies -- Divine revelation -- were frequently unintelligible even to the prophets who wrote down what was given. That is why certain truths are called "mysteries" (Rom 16:25,26). So we need not be surprised if some of the revelations were not actually known to the prophets, let alone Israel.

They had to understand it otherwise the book of Ezekiel may as well call all the nations listed by their modern names instead of using terms such as Persia and Gomer and Mesech. If the word Rosh was used to mean Russia then why do we not see the names 'Turkey' and 'Iran' being used?

Some of the names of countries are in use to this day (Libya, Ethiopia).  Others have their ancient names: Togarmah = Turkey, Persia = Iran. This is not a critical issue at all.

And what do you mean, 'it is generally accepted'? Generally accepted by whom? Generally accepted by those who think that Rosh means Russia?

Generally accepted by CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIAN BIBLE SCHOLARS. See Unger's Bible Dictionary etc. See also Frederick Tatford’s commentary on Ezekiel (thoroughly researched).

Supposing Russia does want to recreate the Soviet Union. Where does Israel come into all of this?And what makes you think that Putin wants to create an Empire?

We should not be looking at these prophecies from a purely secular-political viewpoint.  Satan will lead Russia and its confederacy against Israel at Armageddon (along with the Arab world), and then once again at the battle of Gog and Magog. So it will be the Antichrist and then Satan who will be calling the shots, not Putin or his successor (who are controlled by Satan even now).

What countries has he invaded so far apart from the Ukraine? The invasion of the Ukraine occurred because the naval ports in Crimea were not being used to defend Russia's southern borders as the terms of the separation agreement requested. Putin merely seized back the Crimea. He has not annexed the Ukraine.

What about Afghanistan, Chechnya, Georgia?  And they have "practised" the invasion of Norway, Finland, Denmark and Sweden.  They have also been interfering in the affairs of all the countries which were foremerly in the Soviet bloc.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11702328/Russian-forces-practised-invasion-of-Norway-Finland-Denmark-and-Sweden.html

The Crimea was unlawfully taken from the Crimean Tatars before, and once more recently. And it is only a matter of time before Putin takes over Ukraine. Should we be surprised if he decides to take over the Baltic countries also?  And then Eastern and Western Europe?

[other one]

Would he see the need to do these things if we had kept our word and not moved NATO to his very borders?

Russia has been invaded many times over their history and they are quite paranoid......    probably justifiably so.

 

Crimea holds their only warm water port and it is simply not conceivable that Putin or any Russian leader would give control of that up.....   ever.

[Ezra]

Would he see the need to do these things if we had kept our word and not moved NATO to his very borders?

Putin would use any excuse for his aggression.  The Russian Bear has only one goal – Russian dominance.

Russia has been invaded many times over their history and they are quite paranoid......    probably justifiably so.

Why would any right-thinking person make excuses for Russia? Russia has no reason to be paranoid, since they are always the aggressors (and have made deception into a fine art).

Crimea holds their only warm water port and it is simply not conceivable that Putin or any Russian leader would give control of that up.....   ever.

That does not give them the right to grab Crimea or any other region. Crimea was unlawfully and forcibly annexed and millions were killed because of Russia wanting whatever it wanted. If they wanted use of the port, they could have requested it without grabbing it.  Bullies do the same thing.

[other one]

 

Would he see the need to do these things if we had kept our word and not moved NATO to his very borders?

 

Putin would use any excuse for his aggression.  The Russian Bear has only one goal – Russian dominance.

 

 

Russia has been invaded many times over their history and they are quite paranoid......    probably justifiably so.

 

Why would any right-thinking person make excuses for Russia? Russia has no reason to be paranoid, since they are always the aggressors (and have made deception into a fine art).

 

 

Crimea holds their only warm water port and it is simply not conceivable that Putin or any Russian leader would give control of that up.....   ever.

 

That does not give them the right to grab Crimea or any other region. Crimea was unlawfully and forcibly annexed and millions were killed because of Russia wanting whatever it wanted. If they wanted use of the port, they could have requested it without grabbing it.  Bullies do the same thing.

 

 

We're not talking right or wrong, we are talking about what "is"....   survival on this planet seldom considers right and wrong.      The Russian aggression may well just be from history......      study it.

The Russians and Cuba wanted us to give up our Naval base in Cuba in the past and now, and we have refused to do so....         Russia had/has the same problem with Sevastopol.

We would be ultra stupid to close the base in Cuba, or give it to the Cubans.

[OakWood]

 

 Yes, the argument does apply. Whether they heard it from God or not, the prophecy was for the Israelites.

Bible prophecies -- Divine revelation -- were frequently unintelligible even to the prophets who wrote down what was given. That is why certain truths are called "mysteries" (Rom 16:25,26). So we need not be surprised if some of the revelations were not actually known to the prophets, let alone Israel.

They had to understand it otherwise the book of Ezekiel may as well call all the nations listed by their modern names instead of using terms such as Persia and Gomer and Mesech. If the word Rosh was used to mean Russia then why do we not see the names 'Turkey' and 'Iran' being used?

Some of the names of countries are in use to this day (Libya, Ethiopia).  Others have their ancient names: Togarmah = Turkey, Persia = Iran. This is not a critical issue at all.

And what do you mean, 'it is generally accepted'? Generally accepted by whom? Generally accepted by those who think that Rosh means Russia?

Generally accepted by CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIAN BIBLE SCHOLARS. See Unger's Bible Dictionary etc. See also Frederick Tatford’s commentary on Ezekiel (thoroughly researched).

Supposing Russia does want to recreate the Soviet Union. Where does Israel come into all of this?And what makes you think that Putin wants to create an Empire?

We should not be looking at these prophecies from a purely secular-political viewpoint.  Satan will lead Russia and its confederacy against Israel at Armageddon (along with the Arab world), and then once again at the battle of Gog and Magog. So it will be the Antichrist and then Satan who will be calling the shots, not Putin or his successor (who are controlled by Satan even now).

What countries has he invaded so far apart from the Ukraine? The invasion of the Ukraine occurred because the naval ports in Crimea were not being used to defend Russia's southern borders as the terms of the separation agreement requested. Putin merely seized back the Crimea. He has not annexed the Ukraine.

What about Afghanistan, Chechnya, Georgia?  And they have "practised" the invasion of Norway, Finland, Denmark and Sweden.  They have also been interfering in the affairs of all the countries which were foremerly in the Soviet bloc.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11702328/Russian-forces-practised-invasion-of-Norway-Finland-Denmark-and-Sweden.html

The Crimea was unlawfully taken from the Crimean Tatars before, and once more recently. And it is only a matter of time before Putin takes over Ukraine. Should we be surprised if he decides to take over the Baltic countries also?  And then Eastern and Western Europe?

Generally accepted by conservative Christian scholars - yes, and there are a number of conservative Christian scholars who disagree. Tell me, if the prince of Rosh is actually the Prince of Mesech and Tubal which are in the Caucasus then it's clear that he is not the prince of Russia.

Of course some of the names used in those days are still in use today (such as Libya), but you're missing the point. It's not relevant which of these names are in use today and which aren't. What is relevant is whether those names were used in Ezekiel's time or not and the name Rosh as a nation did not exist in Ezekiel's time, nor does such a nation exist today..

Persia existed in Ezekiel's time, so did Libya, so did Ethiopia (which is more in line today with modern Sudan), so did Gomer, so did Mesech and so on..... Rosh did not!

The ONLY reason that scholars believed Russia to be involved was because of the word 'rosh'. If you remove that word from the equation then scholars have no reason to believe Russia to be a northern country that is involved anymore than Finland, Poland or Lithuania would be involved.

As for Putin's interference in Chechnya and others such..... Chechnya is NOT  a separate state it is actually a Russian republic and a province rife with Islamic terrorists. Putin is exercising what any good leader should exercise..... protection of his own nation. Something that Obama and European leaders care not to do.

Afghanistan? Don't make me laugh. If our leaders still had their right minds, they'd be worried about Afghanistan too. In case you'd forgotten, the U.S.A. and Britain invaded Afghanistan only a few years ago, yet when Putin gets involved with Afghanistan then somehow he's an imperialist. And he's actually got this troublesome neighbor pretty close to his own borders - something which we haven't.