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I did not come to bring peace but a sword” (Matthew 10:32-34). Christ made it clear to us that “if the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you” (John 15:18-19). So, while it is understandable for someone to keep his/her faith in Christ a secret in order to save his/her life, for a Christian, a secret faith is simply not an option.

 

Matthew has nothing to do with Once Saved Always Saved.

Edited by bopeep1909
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Nothing outside ourselves can separate us from God, no outside power acting upon us can separate us from God.

But we did not suddenly become Stepford Wives when we became christians.  God does not want robots.  He wants beings who will freely love Him of their own free will.  We still have our free will and we can take ourselves out of God's and separate ourselves.

The scriptures never give us an unconditional protection even from our own choices.

In fact, the very scripture you refer to shows us the conditional nature of Jesus' words:

 

John 10

27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.…

 

the Greek verb for "perish"  is in the Subjunctive Mood:

The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. Conditional sentences of the third class ("ean" + the subjunctive) are all of this type, as well as many commands following conditional purpose clauses, such as those beginning with "hina."

 

This means what is described, "they will never perish" is not describing something that is a certainty, rather something that is a possibility, a potentiality, something that may or may not occur.

 

 

Whether it occurs or not depends on the circumstances.

And so our  "never perishing" is dependent on the circumstances - it may or may not occur -  it is not certain.  

 

 

 

The subjunctive mood normally conveys a sense of possibility or uncertainty. However, there are some exceptions. There is a grammatical construction called the 'emphatic negative future', in which the words 'ou me' are followed by a verb in the subjunctive. John 10:28 is one of these. The meaning is not that we may (possibly) not perish, but that we will (definitely) not perish. Other examples are Mark 13:30 ('This generation will certainly not perish') and John 6:37 ('Anyone who comes to me I will certainly not drive away').

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Nothing outside ourselves can separate us from God, no outside power acting upon us can separate us from God.

But we did not suddenly become Stepford Wives when we became christians.  God does not want robots.  He wants beings who will freely love Him of their own free will.  We still have our free will and we can take ourselves out of God's and separate ourselves.

The scriptures never give us an unconditional protection even from our own choices.

In fact, the very scripture you refer to shows us the conditional nature of Jesus' words:

 

John 10

27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.…

 

the Greek verb for "perish"  is in the Subjunctive Mood:

The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. Conditional sentences of the third class ("ean" + the subjunctive) are all of this type, as well as many commands following conditional purpose clauses, such as those beginning with "hina."

 

This means what is described, "they will never perish" is not describing something that is a certainty, rather something that is a possibility, a potentiality, something that may or may not occur.

 

 

Whether it occurs or not depends on the circumstances.

And so our  "never perishing" is dependent on the circumstances - it may or may not occur -  it is not certain.  

 

 

 

The subjunctive mood normally conveys a sense of possibility or uncertainty. However, there are some exceptions. There is a grammatical construction called the 'emphatic negative future', in which the words 'ou me' are followed by a verb in the subjunctive. John 10:28 is one of these. The meaning is not that we may (possibly) not perish, but that we will (definitely) not perish. Other examples are Mark 13:30 ('This generation will certainly not perish') and John 6:37 ('Anyone who comes to me I will certainly not drive away').

 

You're right.  There is  ἐὰν μή ean mē and    οὐ μή ou mē and it is 'ou me' used here.  Thank you for the correction.   You might be disappointed to hear it doesn't really change my understanding of what the passage is saying however.  ;)  I'll explain.

Though the use of the subjunctive doesn't make the statement conditional here in and of itself,   it is obviously predicated on hearing and following Jesus as  the previous verse indicates or it would apply to everyone and everyone would be saved.   So I agree - for if we  follow Jesus, we will never perish.

This context is given in the verse preceding this one:

Jhn 10:27

“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

This is all in the Present tense, Active Voice, and Indicative Mood.

Hearing and following Christ is something we need to actively do.  And this is something we are ACTIVELY doing ourselves in the Present moment, not the past, not the future.

This means we are hearing His voice in the PRESENT moment,   WE are the ones doing the hearing. This is not something happening to us, it is not passive on our part; it is something we are actively doing -  it requires our participation, our energy, our effort to hear Him,  

This means we are the ones actively following him, - again we are doing the following, we are not passive participants in this following, but actively following.  Again this active following requires our participation, our energy, our effort to follow Him.

There is nothing here guaranteeing that once we start following Jesus that this state can never change.  There is nothing guaranteeing that we will not stop actively following Him, that we will not  stop spending our efforts and energy on following Him.

And so the statement "they shall never perish" is not absent any conditions whatsoever, and these words do not control our understanding of the words that came before it in the previous verse, but rather the other way around.  Our continued hearing, our continued following in each present moment is what gives rise to the promise "they shall never perish."   

Where Jesus says  "And I give unto them eternal life" in verse 28, this is also in the present tense.     If this was intended to convey our salvation was done once and for all with nothing needing to be added, then the perfect tense would have been used.

The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.

But this is not the tense that was used, and this is not the sense that was conveyed.

The simple Present tense was used.  This puts the giving of eternal life in the present moment with our active hearing Jesus, following Jesus.  This is something that is happening in the present, in each present moment.   We either are living in God's grace, receiving eternal life, preserved from perishing in each moment, or we are not, and this is by our choice which is determined by us, using our free will.

 

There are many passages in the bible which warn us that this can change, and so this passage must be understood in the context of "they follow Me." as well as the larger context in the whole of scripture.

 

Paul lamented those who had once followed Chirst and had now become enemies of the Cross.

Phl 3:16

Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule,fn let us be of the same mind.

 Phl 3:17

Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern

Phl 3:18

For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

In verse 17 Paul is speaking of those who's walk believers can follow as an example, who walk by the same rule he refers to in verse 16.  Then in verse 18 he reveals that there are many who walked according to the same rule, whom he had told them about often before, but (and the Greek uses the conjunction "de" here which indicates  a change in direction) now had turned away and became enemies of the cross of Christ.

Paul warns the believers in Romans that we must continue in Christ or we will be cast out into the fire.

Rom 11:19

You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”

Rom 11:20

Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.

Rom 11:21

for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Rom 11:22

Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

 

If this verse in John 10 were to actually mean no matter what, no matter what we do, we will never perish, then all the warnings to the contrary in scripture, some of which are above, would be entirely frivolous and without any real meaning.

There are no frivolous warnings in scripture, ever.

 

 

 

 

Edited by thereselittleflower
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You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

Salvation is found in Christ.No amount of Church attendance will earn eternity in heaven.It should be a person choice if someone wants to attend a Worship service in a Church.Churches certainly are not what they used to be.I am sure there are a handful of Churches left that preach from the Bible.I have been very disappointed in several Churches I have attended.It is more the world than in the House of God.

 

So are you advocating disobedience to the command in God's word?

 

 

I am saying that attending Church is not a salvation issue.You will not go to hell if you do not attend.There are many who go to Church who are not a Christian.You can also pick up some false doctrine by attending many of the Churches in our world today.Many can not attend a Church.That is ok as long as they are studying the literal true word of God daily.

Then is obedience not a salvation issue?

We must also be aware of using a veneer of obedience to mask a sinful heart.

Amen!  

Amen and Amen!!

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The Church is the Body of Christ.  This is first and foremost.  The true Church is the body of believers who are to support one another, learn together, worship together.  Now, I submit that today's "buildings and assemblies" are not as powerful in their gatherings as they used to be.  Something is amiss IMO.

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You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

You mean you cannot put God in a building. God is anywhere you want to worship? A box would be kind of small to fit in. Teehee. 

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You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

You mean you cannot put God in a building. God is anywhere you want to worship? A box would be kind of small to fit in. Teehee. 

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I have found that I am always learning something from other believers.  We can always learn something from eachother.   Whether it is a person's character, or knowledge of some sort.

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You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

Salvation is found in Christ.No amount of Church attendance will earn eternity in heaven.It should be a person choice if someone wants to attend a Worship service in a Church.Churches certainly are not what they used to be.I am sure there are a handful of Churches left that preach from the Bible.I have been very disappointed in several Churches I have attended.It is more the world than in the House of God.

 

So are you advocating disobedience to the command in God's word?

 

 

I am saying that attending Church is not a salvation issue.You will not go to hell if you do not attend.There are many who go to Church who are not a Christian.You can also pick up some false doctrine by attending many of the Churches in our world today.Many can not attend a Church.That is ok as long as they are studying the literal true word of God daily.

Yes it is not enough to go to a church.   One should attend a church that actually preaches the truth, and not a church that teaches salvation is based on something other than Jesus Christ.    Going to church isn't how we are saved, but there fellowship benefits that those who choose not to attend will miss out on.    There is coming a time when it will be better to stay away from churches due to the way so many are falling into false doctrine and are capitulating to the world's system.  Many churches are not even worth attending, these days.

Can we ignore God's commands?

Who is talking about ignoring God's commands??  

Those who say we can forsake the assembling together of believers contrary to the command of scripture.

Who is saying that?   All anyone is saying is that it is not a salvation issue.   If a person   does not attend church, it is not going to send them to hell.  Some people have issues that make church attendance a nonstarter.  Trying to pin salvation to church attendance is false doctrine and a false gospel and that means such ideas should be rejected by those of us who are actually Christians.  

Attending Church is a way for people not to forsake the assembling together.

The OP presented two questions.

I understand the qualms with saying we must be tied to a brick and mortar buildiing to be where we assemble.    But to even question being tied to a "brick and mortar" building misses the point entirely.

We go to "brick and mortar" buildings because this is where we have chosen to meet.   It is not the building that makes the "church" - it is the people who meet there.  To look at the building is to have our eyes on the wrong thing.

Even in the very early times of christianity, when they met in homes, it would be the homes of wealthy believers, homes which then became set aside as the regular meeting place for believers in that area; the gathering for worship then becoming the only purpose for that building, what was once a home.

Focusing on the building misses the bigger picture of needing to assemble together.    

I know people who refuse to do so in an extreme over reaction to organized christianity, seeking to go it alone.    This is in disobedience to what we are commanded to do.

 

 

None of that actually addresses the issues I raised.  All anyone is saying is that it is  not salvation issue in terms of gaining or losing salvation.  No one is going to hell for not going to church.  They are missing out on a lot of blessings and they are disobeying the Lord, and the Lord will handle that.  But no one is losing salvation over it.

So then my question moves towards disobedience in general.

Can one knowingly, deliberately disobey God and presume upon His grace or are there repercussions for such disobedience?     I ask this because this is what I see as the real issue.

There may be repercussions  for disobedience, but why does everyone act as if the only repercussion that exists is losing one's salvation?   There are always repercussions for disobedience, but God has a lot of options available to him to deal with it and none of them include sending someone to hell.

Well  what do you think the repercussions would be?

I don't look at repercussions in an all or nothing, black and white manner.      But I also don't exclude the possibility that someone's disobedience could be so serious, they have separated themselves from God.

 

 

 

 

Nothing can separate from God (Rom. 8: 37-39).  Repercussions include conviction, and even physical hardships if we fail to respond to that. God is not going to toss people away for not going to church.   You don't have the Holy Spirit and so you don't know Him.  You judge after the flesh and God doesn't.  There lots of blessings people miss out on when they fail purposely to plug in to a local church. The notion that you have to keep yourself saved is lie.  Not going to church doesn't result in losing salvation.

Nothing outside ourselves can separate us from God, no outside power acting upon us can separate us from God.

But we did not suddenly become Stepford Wives when we became christians.  God does not want robots.  He wants beings who will freely love Him of their own free will.  We still have our free will and we can take ourselves out of God's and separate ourselves.

The scriptures never give us an unconditional protection even from our own choices.

In fact, the very scripture you refer to shows us the conditional nature of Jesus' words:

 

John 10

27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.…

 

the Greek verb for "perish"  is in the Subjunctive Mood:

The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. Conditional sentences of the third class ("ean" + the subjunctive) are all of this type, as well as many commands following conditional purpose clauses, such as those beginning with "hina."

 

This means what is described, "they will never perish" is not describing something that is a certainty, rather something that is a possibility, a potentiality, something that may or may not occur.

 

 

Whether it occurs or not depends on the circumstances.

And so our  "never perishing" is dependent on the circumstances - it may or may not occur -  it is not certain.  

 

The statement that  no one is able to snatch us out of God's hands deals with others, not the believer him/herself.

"Snatch" is

ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

  1. to seize, carry off by force

  2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly

  3. to snatch out or away

 

This is speaking of actions of those on the outside, not actions by God or the believer.

It says nothing about what the believer him/herself can choose to do.

 

When one looks the Greek used in passages speaking about our salvation, it becomes abundantly clear our salvation, while we have received our initial salvation,  our final salvation is not automatically assured.    

This is why Paul tells us very strong and in no uncertain terms:

 

Phl 2:12

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
 

The English, as strong as it is, does not convey the direness of his warning and command to us here the Greek does.

"Fear" is

φόβος phóbos, fob'-os; from a primary φέβομαι phébomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright:—be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

fear, dread, terror
that which strikes terror

 

"Trembling" is 

τρόμος trómos, trom'-os; from G5141; a "trembling", i.e. quaking with fear:—+ tremble(-ing).

a trembling or quaking with fear

with fear and trembling, used to describe the anxiety of one who distrusts his ability completely to meet all requirements, but religiously does his utmost to fulfil his duty

 

There is absolutely no reason to work out one's salvation if one's salvation is assured.

And there is absolutely NO reason to do so with such dire fear and trembling if one's salvation is assured.

 

Obviously, we need to do something on a continual basis to ensure our final salvation.

 

As far as your personal judgememt of myself or anyone else,  I am sorry to have to be so blunt, but this is the truth:   

Only God has the authority to make such judgements.   

No one here speaks as the oracle of God.

 

 

 

I have a ticket to heaven.Without a doubt I know I will see Jesus Christ face to face as soon as I get HOME.

Can you turn your back on Jesus, deny Him, and if you do will that ticket still be good?

 

 

 

Eternal security is the established rendering of Scripture since Abrahamic covenant ... your first born reasoning
of everything must be earned by works will separate you from God forever unless you conform to The Scriptures!
Love, Steven 

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Guest shiloh357

You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

Salvation is found in Christ.No amount of Church attendance will earn eternity in heaven.It should be a person choice if someone wants to attend a Worship service in a Church.Churches certainly are not what they used to be.I am sure there are a handful of Churches left that preach from the Bible.I have been very disappointed in several Churches I have attended.It is more the world than in the House of God.

 

So are you advocating disobedience to the command in God's word?

 

 

I am saying that attending Church is not a salvation issue.You will not go to hell if you do not attend.There are many who go to Church who are not a Christian.You can also pick up some false doctrine by attending many of the Churches in our world today.Many can not attend a Church.That is ok as long as they are studying the literal true word of God daily.

Yes it is not enough to go to a church.   One should attend a church that actually preaches the truth, and not a church that teaches salvation is based on something other than Jesus Christ.    Going to church isn't how we are saved, but there fellowship benefits that those who choose not to attend will miss out on.    There is coming a time when it will be better to stay away from churches due to the way so many are falling into false doctrine and are capitulating to the world's system.  Many churches are not even worth attending, these days.

Can we ignore God's commands?

Who is talking about ignoring God's commands??  

Those who say we can forsake the assembling together of believers contrary to the command of scripture.

Who is saying that?   All anyone is saying is that it is not a salvation issue.   If a person   does not attend church, it is not going to send them to hell.  Some people have issues that make church attendance a nonstarter.  Trying to pin salvation to church attendance is false doctrine and a false gospel and that means such ideas should be rejected by those of us who are actually Christians.  

Attending Church is a way for people not to forsake the assembling together.

The OP presented two questions.

I understand the qualms with saying we must be tied to a brick and mortar buildiing to be where we assemble.    But to even question being tied to a "brick and mortar" building misses the point entirely.

We go to "brick and mortar" buildings because this is where we have chosen to meet.   It is not the building that makes the "church" - it is the people who meet there.  To look at the building is to have our eyes on the wrong thing.

Even in the very early times of christianity, when they met in homes, it would be the homes of wealthy believers, homes which then became set aside as the regular meeting place for believers in that area; the gathering for worship then becoming the only purpose for that building, what was once a home.

Focusing on the building misses the bigger picture of needing to assemble together.    

I know people who refuse to do so in an extreme over reaction to organized christianity, seeking to go it alone.    This is in disobedience to what we are commanded to do.

 

 

None of that actually addresses the issues I raised.  All anyone is saying is that it is  not salvation issue in terms of gaining or losing salvation.  No one is going to hell for not going to church.  They are missing out on a lot of blessings and they are disobeying the Lord, and the Lord will handle that.  But no one is losing salvation over it.

So then my question moves towards disobedience in general.

Can one knowingly, deliberately disobey God and presume upon His grace or are there repercussions for such disobedience?     I ask this because this is what I see as the real issue.

There may be repercussions  for disobedience, but why does everyone act as if the only repercussion that exists is losing one's salvation?   There are always repercussions for disobedience, but God has a lot of options available to him to deal with it and none of them include sending someone to hell.

Well  what do you think the repercussions would be?

I don't look at repercussions in an all or nothing, black and white manner.      But I also don't exclude the possibility that someone's disobedience could be so serious, they have separated themselves from God.

 

 

 

 

Nothing can separate from God (Rom. 8: 37-39).  Repercussions include conviction, and even physical hardships if we fail to respond to that. God is not going to toss people away for not going to church.   You don't have the Holy Spirit and so you don't know Him.  You judge after the flesh and God doesn't.  There lots of blessings people miss out on when they fail purposely to plug in to a local church. The notion that you have to keep yourself saved is lie.  Not going to church doesn't result in losing salvation.

Nothing outside ourselves can separate us from God, no outside power acting upon us can separate us from God.

But we did not suddenly become Stepford Wives when we became christians.  God does not want robots.  He wants beings who will freely love Him of their own free will.  We still have our free will and we can take ourselves out of God's and separate ourselves.

The scriptures never give us an unconditional protection even from our own choices.

In fact, the very scripture you refer to shows us the conditional nature of Jesus' words:

 

John 10

27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.…

 

the Greek verb for "perish"  is in the Subjunctive Mood:

The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. Conditional sentences of the third class ("ean" + the subjunctive) are all of this type, as well as many commands following conditional purpose clauses, such as those beginning with "hina."

 

This means what is described, "they will never perish" is not describing something that is a certainty, rather something that is a possibility, a potentiality, something that may or may not occur.

 

 

Whether it occurs or not depends on the circumstances.

And so our  "never perishing" is dependent on the circumstances - it may or may not occur -  it is not certain.  

 

The statement that  no one is able to snatch us out of God's hands deals with others, not the believer him/herself.

"Snatch" is

ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

  1. to seize, carry off by force

  2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly

  3. to snatch out or away

 

This is speaking of actions of those on the outside, not actions by God or the believer.

It says nothing about what the believer him/herself can choose to do.

 

When one looks the Greek used in passages speaking about our salvation, it becomes abundantly clear our salvation, while we have received our initial salvation,  our final salvation is not automatically assured.    

This is why Paul tells us very strong and in no uncertain terms:

 

Phl 2:12

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
 

The English, as strong as it is, does not convey the direness of his warning and command to us here the Greek does.

"Fear" is

φόβος phóbos, fob'-os; from a primary φέβομαι phébomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright:—be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

fear, dread, terror
that which strikes terror

 

"Trembling" is 

τρόμος trómos, trom'-os; from G5141; a "trembling", i.e. quaking with fear:—+ tremble(-ing).

a trembling or quaking with fear

with fear and trembling, used to describe the anxiety of one who distrusts his ability completely to meet all requirements, but religiously does his utmost to fulfil his duty

 

There is absolutely no reason to work out one's salvation if one's salvation is assured.

And there is absolutely NO reason to do so with such dire fear and trembling if one's salvation is assured.

 

Obviously, we need to do something on a continual basis to ensure our final salvation.

 

As far as your personal judgememt of myself or anyone else,  I am sorry to have to be so blunt, but this is the truth:   

Only God has the authority to make such judgements.   

No one here speaks as the oracle of God.

 

 

 

You are not really look at this from a Christian point of view. 

Your first error is with the silly Stepford analogy.   Those of us who are Christians believe what the Bible says about salvation, namely that salvation is a transformation of the heart.   For one who is TRULY saved, there is nothing in you that would prompt you to forsake the Lord, or attempt to apostatize.  So there is NOTHING that can separate us from God.  There is nothing inwardly or outwardly that will cause us to be separated from Him.  That also applies to your sloppy treatment of John 10.

Next we turn to your sloppy treatment of Phil. 2:12.   Paul is not telling us that our final salvation is not assured.   Phil. 2:12 is speaking to how we live out our salvation.  The phrase "work out"  in v. 12 is one Greek word  and it means to "put on display."   Paul is talking about the outward, public display of the inner transformation that has already taken place. It is precisely because our salvation is assured that we can confidently "work it out." 

Paul is not saying that we work FOR our salvation with fear and trembling because we might lose it.  He is saying we put it on display with fear and trembling.   You are completely butchering that text with your unregenerate, unsaved approach to the Bible.

Your approach to this makes man, not God, the  Savior.  Jesus saved you initially, but according to you, you ultimately have to save yourself by being good enough to deserve salvation.

And that is precisely why you are NOT a Christian.  You don't really know if you're saved or not.  You don't know if you will ultimately be saved because it all depends on what YOU do and if you have either done enough or if what you have done is actually good enough. 

 

  

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