Is paradise and Heaven the same?

[Sister]

TSDBB

I will show you an Old testament prophesy that gives a glimpse of the peace inside the kingdom;

 

Isaiah 11:6   The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isaiah 11:7   And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Isaiah 11:8   And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

Isaiah 11:9   They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Isaiah 11:10   And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

The root of Jesse is Jesus, because Jesus came from the tribe of Judah if we trace back his lineage.  Jesse was King David's father.  The priests back in those days were always of the tribe of "Levi".  This prophecy was for Israel to learn that when their Messiah would come, the priesthood was changed to Judah. 

This "rest" that shall be glorious is the 1000 year millennium where there is peace from the oppressor (Satan) because he has been put away for this time.

 

[Your closest friendnt]

Yes,paradise and heaven are the same

EI am wondering if you are sugesting that Adam was created in heaven-paradise, (the same), or after God created him on earth, he put him in heaven- paradise, ( the same), and that's where everything happen? In heaven-in paradise, ( the same).

Before Jesus was crucified on the Cross all believers went to paradise.

Are you sugesting, that before the death of Jesus Christ,  all believers went to heaven-paradise,(the same)?

.After Jesus was crucified on the Cross he went to paradise and took all those believers with him to heaven.

Are you sugesting, that Jesus Christ, upon. His death, he went to heaven-paradise, (the same), and took all those believers with him to paradise-heaven, (the same)?

by saying believers, what is that? Who are they? And what they blieved?

And even thought they believed, were they accepted (or their faith) by God? Or were they rejected?

[Qnts2]

 

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

⁵ from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand, ⁶ from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand, ⁷ from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand, ⁸ from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

QNTS2

There are no tribes today.  

 Psalms 2:8   Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

 Proverbs 17:2   A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren.

 Ezekiel 47:22   And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.

Acts 20:32   And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

  Colossians 1:12   Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

 Matthew 21:31   Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
 

I am somewhat amused. Yes, there are still tribes today. God who inspired all of scripture mentions the tribes of Israel in Revelation. He doesn't make mistakes.

QNTS2

No God does not make mistakes, but we can do if we do not put all the scriptures together and get a clear picture without contradictions.

  Matthew 21:43   Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

  Luke 3:8   Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

 

I'm glad that you recognize that God does not make mistakes but people do.

Who was Jesus speaking to in Matthew 21:43?

Matt 21:43

⁴³ Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. ⁴⁴ And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust.”⁴⁵ When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. ⁴⁶ When they sought to seize Him, they feared the ^[n]people, because they considered Him to be a prophet.

Jesus was speaking to the priests and Pharisees who had denied that He was the prophesied Messiah. The following verse preceeds the statement about the kingdom being taken.

Matt 21:²³ When He entered the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to Him while He was teaching, and said, “By what authority are You doing these things, and who gave You this authority?” ²⁴ Jesus said to them, “I will also ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I will also tell you by what authority I do these things. ²⁵ The baptism of John was from what source, from heaven or from men?” And they began reasoning among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Then why did you not believe him?’ ²⁶ But if we say, ‘From men,’ we fear the ^[e]people; for they all regard John as a prophet.” ²⁷ And answering Jesus, they said, “We do not know.” He also said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.

Starting in the OT, it was prophesied that God would use the Gentiles. (By the way, Gentiles means not Israel/Jews). 

Deut 32:21 ‘They have made Me jealous with what is not God; They have provoked Me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation,

Deut 32:21 is speaking to the children of Israel. In the OT, the word translated as nation is goy, and means a people group or ethnic group. In this case, a people who are not a nation are brought together as a foolish nation (made up of diverse people from differing ethnic groups and races), to make Israel jealous. 

That prophesy is repeated in the NT.

Romans 10:10 But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,

“I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation,
By a nation without understanding will I anger you.”

So, God is still seeking and reaching out to Israel, using Gentiles.

What does God say to Israel?

Jeremiah 31:³⁵ Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The Lord of hosts is His name:
³⁶ “If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the Lord,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”

Since there is still a sun for light during the day, and the moon and stars still give light at night, and the sea still has waves, The offspring of Israel/Jacob have not ceased. The children of Israel are still a nation before God. Revelation can only be speaking about the tribes of israel for the 144000, since there is still a sun, moon and stars. 

 

[missmuffet]

Yes,paradise and heaven are the same

EI am wondering if you are sugesting that Adam was created in heaven-paradise, (the same), or after God created him on earth, he put him in heaven- paradise, ( the same), and that's where everything happen? In heaven-in paradise, ( the same).

Before Jesus was crucified on the Cross all believers went to paradise.

Are you sugesting, that before the death of Jesus Christ,  all believers went to heaven-paradise,(the same)?

.After Jesus was crucified on the Cross he went to paradise and took all those believers with him to heaven.

Are you sugesting, that Jesus Christ, upon. His death, he went to heaven-paradise, (the same), and took all those believers with him to paradise-heaven, (the same)?

by saying believers, what is that? Who are they? And what they blieved?

And even thought they believed, were they accepted (or their faith) by God? Or were they rejected?

 

Read the Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus Luke 16:19-31.There was a huge separation between the two.Although those in Sheol could see those in paradise.

Jesus did not take those in Sheol to heaven but he did speak with them.

Edited September 9, 2015 by bopeep1909

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, TSDBB. 

Just spoke to a Jehovah's witness and he said that when Christians die they go to paradise (which is the new earth).  That people who died before Jesus came would also be there- Abraham , John the baptist etc.

144,000 of chosen people would go to heaven.

I believe that all christian will go to heaven but what about people who died before Jesus came?  As the only way to heaven is through Jesus?

What did Jesus mean when on the cross he said to one of the guys that surely he would be with him in paradise?

My Bible knowledge is not as good as it should be and I 'm a little baffled by this.

Actually, although the two, “paradise” and “heaven,” are usually THOUGHT to be the same, the JW’s are only PARTIALLY right.

The word “paradise” (TRANSLITERATED from the Greek word “paradeisos”) is found three places in the NT (as is the Greek word): Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; and Revelation 2:7:

Luke 23:39-43

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
KJV

2 Corinthians 12:1-5

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
KJV

Revelation 2:1-7

1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
KJV

Strong’s Dictionary of the Greek Language lists this entry:

NT:3857 paradeisos (par-ad'-i-sos); of Oriental origin [compare OT:6508]; a park, i.e. (specifically) an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise"):
KJV - paradise.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Complying with the suggestion to compare OT:6508, here is that entry in the Dictionary of the Hebrew and Aramaic Languages:

OT:6508 pardeec (par-dace'); of foreign origin; a park:
KJV - forest, orchard.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

BOTH words mean simply “a park!” Using the Englishman’s Concordance, here are the verses that use this word in the King James Version: Nehemiah 2:8; Ecclesiastes 2:5; and Song of Solomon 4:13:

Nehemiah 2:5-8

5 And I said unto the king, If it please the king, and if thy servant have found favour in thy sight, that thou wouldest send me unto Judah, unto the city of my fathers' sepulchres, that I may build it.

6 And the king said unto me, (the queen also sitting by him,) For how long shall thy journey be? and when wilt thou return? So it pleased the king to send me; and I set him a time.

7 Moreover I said unto the king, If it please the king, let letters be given me to the governors beyond the river, that they may convey me over till I come into Judah;

8 And a letter unto Asaph the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the palace which appertained to the house, and for the wall of the city, and for the house that I shall enter into. And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me.
KJV

Ecclesiastes 2:1-5

1 I said in mine heart, Go to now, I will prove thee with mirth, therefore enjoy pleasure: and, behold, this also is vanity.

2 I said of laughter, It is mad: and of mirth, What doeth it?

3 I sought in mine heart to give myself unto wine, yet acquainting mine heart with wisdom; and to lay hold on folly, till I might see what was that good for the sons of men, which they should do under the heaven all the days of their life.

4 I made me great works; I builded me houses; I planted me vineyards:

5 I made me gardens and orchards, and I planted trees in them of all kind of fruits:
KJV

Song of Solomon 4:11-14

11 Thy lips, O my spouse, drop as the honeycomb: honey and milk are under thy tongue; and the smell of thy garments is like the smell of Lebanon.

12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

13 Thy plants are an orchard of pomegranates, with pleasant fruits; camphire, with spikenard,

14 Spikenard and saffron; calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense; myrrh and aloes, with all the chief spices:
KJV

So, specifically, this is a “park of TREES" or an “orchard,” just as the original Gan-`Eden (Garden of Eden) was. These verses don’t have much to contribute to our discussion other than to show that this word in Hebrew, “pardeec,” is only found in these three verses and is the origin of the Greek word “paradeisos."

Now, let’s look at what we learn from the NT:

First, Yeshua` was telling the malefactor who would die with Him that day, that “today, he would be with Him in paradise."

Second, a look at 2 Cor. 12:1-4 tells us that whoever Paul was talking about (probably Paul himself) was “caught up to the third heaven.” This is NOT, I REPEAT, NOT talking about “God’s abode, Heaven!” It’s talking about an “ouranou tritou,” a “third SKY!” Someone else told us about a “third sky”:

2 Peter 3:3-13

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old (1st heaven), and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens (2nd heaven) and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens (3rd heaven) and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

It’s a “third sky” CHRONOLOGICALLY, NOT SPATIALLY! The word “tritos” (“third”) usually refers to TIME references! “Third day,” “third hour,” “third husband,”  etc. Furthermore, the word translated "caught up," “heerpagee,” simply means “was snatched away” or “was seized” and has NO direction “up” associated with the word! As with most prophets who are given information about the future, he was "snatched away to the third sky" in the FUTURE! In his vision, he was teleported to the future and heard words he couldn’t legally repeat.

NT:5154 tritos (tree'-tos); ord. from NT:5140; third; neuter (as noun) a third part, or (as adverb) a (or the) third time, thirdly:
KJV - third (-ly).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

NT:3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'); perhaps from the same as NT:3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specifically, the Gospel (Christianity):
KJV - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

NT:726 harpazoo (har-pad'-zo); from a derivative of NT:138; to sieze (in various applications):
KJV - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Third, consider the information we are given in Matthew 16:1-4:

Matthew 16:1-4

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ouranos).

2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky (Greek: ouranos) is red.

3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky (Greek: ouranos) is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: ouranos); but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
KJV

The Pharisees and Sadducees asked Yeshua` for a sign from “ouranos,” and He GAVE them a sign from “ouranos,” just not the sign they were expecting: "Red sky at night is a sailor’s delight; red sky at morning, sailors take warning."

Fourth, Rev. 2:7 mentions that the “tree of life” is "in the midst of the paradise of God.” So, where else do we see the “tree of life?"

Revelation 21:1-22:2

21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth (like 2 Peter 3:13): for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (out of the ouranos; out of the sky), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle (Greek: skeenee = tent) of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. (We don’t go to “heaven”; “God and His tent come HERE, to the New Earth and its New Sky!)
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there THE TREE OF LIFE, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
KJV

Remembering that “paradeisos” means “a park,” specifically, a “park of trees,” we have such a park in the middle of the street, on either side of the river! Thus, the Paradise of God is found WITHIN THE NEW JERUSALEM! And, the city is a very real, very literal, structure that comes out of the sky and lands upon the New Earth!

So, now you know what a “paradise” is and what “heaven” means. One last thing to think about: The description about the city, the New Jerusalem, given by John in Revelation 21 and 22 is the very description that many people will say is a description about “Heaven.” That’s SORT of true, but not entirely, and what is true about it is NOT why they THINK it’s true! Right now, according to the author of Hebrews, the city is an “epouranios” city; that is, a city from “above the sky.” It’s a city that is above the atmosphere, and we’ve just learned from Revelation 21 that it shall be a city that comes down from God and comes "out of the sky.” Thus, it comes out of the atmosphere; therefore, the city LANDS on the New Earth, probably centered at the coordinates for the original Jerusalem, thus confirming that it is the NEW Jerusalem. We also learn that God’s throne and that of the Lamb are WITHIN the New Jerusalem (22:3)!

Edited September 9, 2015 by Retrobyter
fix grammar

[Your closest friendnt]

Yes,paradise and heaven are the same

EI am wondering if you are sugesting that Adam was created in heaven-paradise, (the same), or after God created him on earth, he put him in heaven- paradise, ( the same), and that's where everything happen? In heaven-in paradise, ( the same).

Before Jesus was crucified on the Cross all believers went to paradise.

Are you sugesting, that before the death of Jesus Christ,  all believers went to heaven-paradise,(the same)?

.After Jesus was crucified on the Cross he went to paradise and took all those believers with him to heaven.

Are you sugesting, that Jesus Christ, upon. His death, he went to heaven-paradise, (the same), and took all those believers with him to paradise-heaven, (the same)?

by saying believers, what is that? Who are they? And what they blieved?

And even thought they believed, were they accepted (or their faith) by God? Or were they rejected?

 

Read the Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus Luke 16:19-31.There was a huge separation between the two.Although those in Sheol could see those in paradise.

Jesus did not take those in Sheol to heaven but he did speak with them.

Luke16:26, is referring to a great Gulf, and no crossing from either sides is allow, so Lasarous can not refresh with water the rich man,16:24.

Is it because Lasarous was not the one, who had the Water of Life?

What do you suggest, that, Jesus spoke to the people in Sheol, from the Bossom of Abraham, which BOSSOM of Abraham, including Abraham was also in Sheol, and it's occupants were dead, not only dead to earth, but also dead to God.   and telling them what?       That he has the water of life only for the ones in the Bossom of Abraham, and not for them. That he is the savior but not for them, and that God will sent another savior to them. Is that what you are saying, that he just taulking to them from a distance? That he did not go to them to give them the Water of Life?

Luke: 16:27,28,  the rich man ask Abraham to sent Lasarous to his brothers here on earth. 16: 29, Abraham , denied his request, they have Moses and the prophets

Luke16:30, nay, father Abraham, if one went to them from the dead, they will repent. ( the rich man is referring to Abraham and the rest in his Bossom as the "DEAD") and in Luke 16: 31, Abraham confirms that they are the "DEAD", and he said unto him , if they here not Moses and the prophets,  neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the "DEAD". 

You keep saying that Jesus took Abraham and those with him to heaven, as they are discrived as    "DEAD". But not only them if there is only one savior, and he did not just taulking ,to the rest of the people in Sheol .  Jesus declare the good news of the Gospel to all down there, as in Isaiah 61:1, that I have come to set the captives free and to open the prison door to give Liberty to all.

Thats exactly what he said, before he died, that the "DEAD" will rise first. 

[Your closest friendnt]

Just spoke to a Jehovah's witness and he said that when Christians die they go to paradise (which is the new earth).  That people who died before Jesus came would also be there- Abraham , John the baptist etc.

144,000 of chosen people would go to heaven.

I believe that all christian will go to heaven but what about people who died before Jesus came?  As the only way to heaven is through Jesus?

What did Jesus mean when on the cross he said to one of the guys that surely he would be with him in paradise?

My Bible knowledge is not as good as it should be and I 'm a little baffled by this.

 

Regarding "HEAVEN" we all know that's where God is, and where Jesus is seated on the THRONE on the right  hand of GOD, and that's where we are going as believers of the SAVIOR. We don't need to know everything about HEAVENS. Just that, the opposite of Heaven is Hell. 

Now regarding Paradise, we must exersize caution as not to get confuse. First we must aproch the question by looking at it after the glorification of Jesus Christ or his resuraction and before. After the resuraction  it is made very clear about the heavenly Paradise. And many things are suggesting that God will have for us there everything we need, make it simple for your self, when you go there, you going to have many of your questions answer.

Now going back before the glorification of Jesus Christ or the CROSS, or before the appearance of the spiritual children of GOD.

We know about the Garden of EDEN or Paradise, and we know that was here on earth, some place in Palestine or around that area, baybe that's why the Lord God said this LAND is mine. 

And we know that he put His children there at the time of creation, Adam and Eve. The spiritual substance is gone with the disobidience of Adam and Eve. 

Later when he had taken Abraham and his children to be his own children, the children of God but without the spirit of God, he gave them the palestine as their earthy inheritance, and for their spiritual inheritance after death he gave them a place separated from the rest of the people in Sheol (or Hades), as a waiting place, till Jesus after his death will go there to give them life and take them with him to heavens. That place was in the sides of Sheol as David put it, which it was call the BOSSOM of Abraham, which also is called Paradise, (a peasful waiting place for the children of God). That place is also finish at the time when Jesus Christ free them from their spiritual captivity and took Abrahan with the rest of them to Heaven. ( a picture of that is Egypt, and the children of God were waiting for their exit from there,  but in a separated place called the Land  of Gosan, which was in Egypt but separated from the Egyptians. 

To make it clear, Paradise is always associated with a place where the children of GOD are. 

Today God has the spiritual children and Paradise is where he has place his children. In the heavens. 

 

 

[missmuffet]

Shalom, TSDBB. 

Just spoke to a Jehovah's witness and he said that when Christians die they go to paradise (which is the new earth).  That people who died before Jesus came would also be there- Abraham , John the baptist etc.

144,000 of chosen people would go to heaven.

I believe that all christian will go to heaven but what about people who died before Jesus came?  As the only way to heaven is through Jesus?

What did Jesus mean when on the cross he said to one of the guys that surely he would be with him in paradise?

My Bible knowledge is not as good as it should be and I 'm a little baffled by this.

Actually, although the two, “paradise” and “heaven,” are usually THOUGHT to be the same, the JW’s are only PARTIALLY right.

The word “paradise” (TRANSLITERATED from the Greek word “paradeisos”) is found three places in the NT (as is the Greek word): Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; and Revelation 2:7:

Luke 23:39-43

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
KJV

2 Corinthians 12:1-5

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
KJV

Revelation 2:1-7

1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
KJV

Strong’s Dictionary of the Greek Language lists this entry:

NT:3857 paradeisos (par-ad'-i-sos); of Oriental origin [compare OT:6508]; a park, i.e. (specifically) an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise"):
KJV - paradise.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Complying with the suggestion to compare OT:6508, here is that entry in the Dictionary of the Hebrew and Aramaic Languages:

OT:6508 pardeec (par-dace'); of foreign origin; a park:
KJV - forest, orchard.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

BOTH words mean simply “a park!” Using the Englishman’s Concordance, here are the verses that use this word in the King James Version: Nehemiah 2:8; Ecclesiastes 2:5; and Song of Solomon 4:13:

Nehemiah 2:5-8

5 And I said unto the king, If it please the king, and if thy servant have found favour in thy sight, that thou wouldest send me unto Judah, unto the city of my fathers' sepulchres, that I may build it.

6 And the king said unto me, (the queen also sitting by him,) For how long shall thy journey be? and when wilt thou return? So it pleased the king to send me; and I set him a time.

7 Moreover I said unto the king, If it please the king, let letters be given me to the governors beyond the river, that they may convey me over till I come into Judah;

8 And a letter unto Asaph the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the palace which appertained to the house, and for the wall of the city, and for the house that I shall enter into. And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me.
KJV

Ecclesiastes 2:1-5

1 I said in mine heart, Go to now, I will prove thee with mirth, therefore enjoy pleasure: and, behold, this also is vanity.

2 I said of laughter, It is mad: and of mirth, What doeth it?

3 I sought in mine heart to give myself unto wine, yet acquainting mine heart with wisdom; and to lay hold on folly, till I might see what was that good for the sons of men, which they should do under the heaven all the days of their life.

4 I made me great works; I builded me houses; I planted me vineyards:

5 I made me gardens and orchards, and I planted trees in them of all kind of fruits:
KJV

Song of Solomon 4:11-14

11 Thy lips, O my spouse, drop as the honeycomb: honey and milk are under thy tongue; and the smell of thy garments is like the smell of Lebanon.

12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

13 Thy plants are an orchard of pomegranates, with pleasant fruits; camphire, with spikenard,

14 Spikenard and saffron; calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense; myrrh and aloes, with all the chief spices:
KJV

So, specifically, this is a “park of TREES" or an “orchard,” just as the original Gan-`Eden (Garden of Eden) was. These verses don’t have much to contribute to our discussion other than to show that this word in Hebrew, “pardeec,” is only found in these three verses and is the origin of the Greek word “paradeisos."

Now, let’s look at what we learn from the NT:

First, Yeshua` was telling the malefactor who would die with Him that day, that “today, he would be with Him in paradise."

Second, a look at 2 Cor. 12:1-4 tells us that whoever Paul was talking about (probably Paul himself) was “caught up to the third heaven.” This is NOT, I REPEAT, NOT talking about “God’s abode, Heaven!” It’s talking about an “ouranou tritou,” a “third SKY!” Someone else told us about a “third sky”:

2 Peter 3:3-13

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old (1st heaven), and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens (2nd heaven) and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens (3rd heaven) and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

It’s a “third sky” CHRONOLOGICALLY, NOT SPATIALLY! The word “tritos” (“third”) usually refers to TIME references! “Third day,” “third hour,” “third husband,”  etc. Furthermore, the word translated "caught up," “heerpagee,” simply means “was snatched away” or “was seized” and has NO direction “up” associated with the word! As with most prophets who are given information about the future, he was "snatched away to the third sky" in the FUTURE! In his vision, he was teleported to the future and heard words he couldn’t legally repeat.

NT:5154 tritos (tree'-tos); ord. from NT:5140; third; neuter (as noun) a third part, or (as adverb) a (or the) third time, thirdly:
KJV - third (-ly).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

NT:3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'); perhaps from the same as NT:3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specifically, the Gospel (Christianity):
KJV - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

NT:726 harpazoo (har-pad'-zo); from a derivative of NT:138; to sieze (in various applications):
KJV - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Third, consider the information we are given in Matthew 16:1-4:

Matthew 16:1-4

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ouranos).

2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky (Greek: ouranos) is red.

3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky (Greek: ouranos) is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: ouranos); but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
KJV

The Pharisees and Sadducees asked Yeshua` for a sign from “ouranos,” and He GAVE them a sign from “ouranos,” just not the sign they were expecting: "Red sky at night is a sailor’s delight; red sky at morning, sailors take warning."

Fourth, Rev. 2:7 mentions that the “tree of life” is "in the midst of the paradise of God.” So, where else do we see the “tree of life?"

Revelation 21:1-22:2

21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth (like 2 Peter 3:13): for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (out of the ouranos; out of the sky), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle (Greek: skeenee = tent) of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. (We don’t go to “heaven”; “God and His tent come HERE, to the New Earth and its New Sky!)
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there THE TREE OF LIFE, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
KJV

Remembering that “paradeisos” means “a park,” specifically, a “park of trees,” we have such a park in the middle of the street, on either side of the river! Thus, the Paradise of God is found WITHIN THE NEW JERUSALEM! And, the city is a very real, very literal, structure that comes out of the sky and lands upon the New Earth!

So, now you know what a “paradise” is and what “heaven” means. One last thing to think about: The description about the city, the New Jerusalem, given by John in Revelation 21 and 22 is the very description that many people will say is a description about “Heaven.” That’s SORT of true, but not entirely, and what is true about it is NOT why they THINK it’s true! Right now, according to the author of Hebrews, the city is an “epouranios” city; that is, a city from “above the sky.” It’s a city that is above the atmosphere, and we’ve just learned from Revelation 21 that it shall be a city that comes down from God and comes "out of the sky.” Thus, it comes out of the atmosphere; therefore, the city LANDS on the New Earth, probably centered at the coordinates for the original Jerusalem, thus confirming that it is the NEW Jerusalem. We also learn that God’s throne and that of the Lamb are WITHIN the New Jerusalem (22:3)!

I am not going to reply something that will take me two years to read.

Edited September 10, 2015 by bopeep1909

[Sister]

Qnts 2

Firstly please understand that I am not trying to bring down Jews and exalt the gentiles.  I'm looking at the big picture.  We can only do this if we tie in all the scriptures together so that it flows in harmony.  If God wanted to make the Jews the first-fruits then he can do that, he can do whatever he likes.  He did say that the 144K of the 12 tribes are of "the children" of Israel, which when we look at it we automatically see what he is stating - of ISRAEL.  Full stop.  Ask no questions, go no further.

But this is not seeking, to just stop there, because God want's us to seek so that he can show us all the why's and how's and tie everything in together.

I'll start here; Without Israel there would be no tribes.  Without Israel we would not have all records of how God exists and how he revealed himself to them in the OT.  Without Israel Jesus would not come from the tribe of Judah, and without Israel there would be no 12 apostles chosen to be our teachers.   What came out of Israel is to our salvation also, the gentiles.

  Now the promise made to Israel through Isaac was a promise concerning his seed, his descendants that natural Israel God will bless and multiply them, that they would be his people..... Isaac's descendants and not Ishmaels.  Isaac's lineage, Israel, not the muslem nations. This is clear.  But concerning the promise to Abraham, his seed is also blessed, and that concerns the children of the faith.  These are counted for the seed.

Galatians 3:7   Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

And if Abraham be the father of the believers who carry this same faith, whether Jew or Gentile, and Abraham be the father also of Israel through his son Isaac, then we who are believers are under the same umbrella. 

therefore...Salvation has come out of Israel to the gentiles also, and in the body of Christ all is one concerning those of the faith.  Because of those tribes, all belong and get a share of the inheritance, all are now made one.

 Romans 9:6   Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
 

So in the last days, those who have walked with the Lamb, whether Jew or Gentile, and are chosen to be the first-fruits, ...the first harvested....the first resurrected, are those who made their robes white and endured during their walk are counted as the seed.  That would be "the children" of Israel, as Israel came first and all the children are of them.

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

Not to be a smart Alec, but. "who cares really?" Seriously, is there anyway that knowing the answer to this can affect how we live where we are today, on earth, in bodies of flesh, in time (not eternity)?

There are many topics for which questions exist like this, that we likely have no need to no nor use for that knowledge, I probably get sidetracked into those myself. However, I am curious to know, is there any reason that we should know or desire to know the answer to this question? What do you (any of you) think? 

I figure what I need to know, is how to live life until I either die, or are caught up to be with the Lord, which ever occurs first. After that point, I will find out what I need to know at that time, I think God has it all worked out.