Hell Needs Clarification

[Kan]

Thanks. 

The only texts there about consciousness in after death are in Luke 16 in what I consider a parable, using a popular belief about the afterlife.

Rev 20:10 could be taken to mean a day and night, as well. But I can see how you have joined the concepts together to make a case.

Can you see that this concept is in conflict with texts, in say Ecclesiastes, where it is says there is no consciousness in death? Or the "sleep" which Jesus spoke of, or say the experience of the real man Lazarus who was raised from the dead (after his body had started to decompose), who had nothing to say of his after death experience?

But I did ask for only a few texts, so...

How can you be certain that man has a spirit/soul which has consciousness and lives on?

Ecclesiastes isn't talking about spiritual death.  It is talking about physical death.    The Bible doesn't say that Lazarus didn't speak of his experience.  It simply doesn't record the conversation if it did take place.  

The Bible is clear that man has a spirit that will live on after death.   I don't see how you can even ask such question given that we will live eternally with Jesus if we are Christians.

I agree that "death" in Ecclesiastes is talking about physical death, but you seem to be saying that spiritual death is the spirit within dying, would that be correct? 

(We'll leave Lazarus alone, seeing that no reaction was recorded, it's just that I would expect someone who has experienced life after the grave to tell about it. Unless it was taken for granted that everybody knew something of the sort.)

About the spirit living after death, the definition of what the spirit is, would be handy to know.

From what I have read, it simply means some of the following depending on the context; wind, breath, breath of life, life, mind, attitude, intelligence, angel, God's spirit. It does not lend itself to a conscious entity of some sort, although the disciples used the term to describe a ghost on occasions.

My understanding of life is - that there is no life without the breath of God, and if it returns to God, then the creature is dead, there are no more thoughts after that, as told in Ecclesiastes and so forth.

Jesus called death "sleep." because He can easily awaken them to life again.

I don't know of too many people who are conscious while sleeping. Lazarus died and was "asleep" according to Jesus. Anybody who dies is asleep, until the resurrection, when they awake. But I have not read anywhere that the Bible says we have a conscious part or entity that wonders around wherever, or crawls back into a dead body etc. Does the word spirit really mean a conscious entity or a life form, or is that just a concept accepted by the world in general, and then read into religion?

 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

Thanks. 

The only texts there about consciousness in after death are in Luke 16 in what I consider a parable, using a popular belief about the afterlife.

Rev 20:10 could be taken to mean a day and night, as well. But I can see how you have joined the concepts together to make a case.

Can you see that this concept is in conflict with texts, in say Ecclesiastes, where it is says there is no consciousness in death? Or the "sleep" which Jesus spoke of, or say the experience of the real man Lazarus who was raised from the dead (after his body had started to decompose), who had nothing to say of his after death experience?

But I did ask for only a few texts, so...

How can you be certain that man has a spirit/soul which has consciousness and lives on?

Ecclesiastes isn't talking about spiritual death.  It is talking about physical death.    The Bible doesn't say that Lazarus didn't speak of his experience.  It simply doesn't record the conversation if it did take place.  

The Bible is clear that man has a spirit that will live on after death.   I don't see how you can even ask such question given that we will live eternally with Jesus if we are Christians.

I agree that "death" in Ecclesiastes is talking about physical death, but you seem to be saying that spiritual death is the spirit within dying, would that be correct? 

(We'll leave Lazarus alone, seeing that no reaction was recorded, it's just that I would expect someone who has experienced life after the grave to tell about it. Unless it was taken for granted that everybody knew something of the sort.)

About the spirit living after death, the definition of what the spirit is, would be handy to know.

From what I have read, it simply means some of the following depending on the context; wind, breath, breath of life, life, mind, attitude, intelligence, angel, God's spirit. It does not lend itself to a conscious entity of some sort, although the disciples used the term to describe a ghost on occasions.

My understanding of life is - that there is no life without the breath of God, and if it returns to God, then the creature is dead, there are no more thoughts after that, as told in Ecclesiastes and so forth.

Jesus called death "sleep." because He can easily awaken them to life again.

I don't know of too many people who are conscious while sleeping. Lazarus died and was "asleep" according to Jesus. Anybody who dies is asleep, until the resurrection, when they awake. But I have not read anywhere that the Bible says we have a conscious part or entity that wonders around wherever, or crawls back into a dead body etc. Does the word spirit really mean a conscious entity or a life form, or is that just a concept accepted by the world in general, and then read into religion?

 

 

The demonstrates "spiritual death"  as being separated from God.  The use of the term "death"  in a spiritual context, in reference to our human spirits does not refer to cessation of existence.   A nonChristian is separated from God and yet is alive.   When we are born again, we receive eternal life, which is not referring to a length of time, but rather a quality of life.  Eternal life is the life of God himself.  Eternal life is a Person, not length of time.   Sinners will continue to exist in the Lake of Fire, but they do so absent of the presence of God.   There is a difference between life and existence in a spiritual context.  You can exist without eternal life, but you do so in a state of constant, continual destruction.

[Kan]

Yes, the spiritual death is one of being absent minded of God, alienated through ignorance, deficient of faith, love and obedience. That is also the condition for a physical life, but in our world we see spiritually dead people still living some - 70 odd years, and we know it is because that the life they have now is a free gift which comes at the price of God's only Son for the world. The Devil is also living by borrowed life from God, he is living off the mercy of the Creator.

There is no life outside of the Son, there is no universe outside of the Son, all things are upheld by Him.

That life is ultimately granted on the condition of loyalty to God isn't it?  So without loyalty there cannot be life, unless the Lord is made to suffer in order that a crooked life, mixed with death is somehow sustained and upheld. A thing God hates doing.         

It is painful and completely against His nature. So if He was to sustain an imperfect and dysfunctional life, and excruciating pain with it, He will also suffer tremendously for as long as it lasts.

I do not believe He has chosen to do that, but when enough is enough He will wipe sin and sinners away by death, from which there is no escape or return, as the Bible points out that "the smoke of their torment rises up forever" and the fire is everlasting, day and night, eternal torment, and it is an everlasting destruction, and an everlasting death, where the worm does not die until all is gone, unquenchable fire, etc

but notice - never does it say that there are everlasting people or spirits in that everlasting destruction of final death - the second death.

The death we experience now is a sleep, because we can be woken from it at any moment if God chooses, but the second death is final. The wicked will be turned to ashes, never more to be found, gone. 

[Montana Marv]

Hell/Hades is just a holding chamber for the souls of the wicked.  They come out for the Great White Throne Judgment and go directly into the Lake of Fire (the Second Death/Resurrection), when Death and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire.  Then the New Heaven and the New Earth and the New Jerusalem will come forth. A pure eternity.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Guest shiloh357]

Yes, the spiritual death is one of being absent minded of God, alienated through ignorance, deficient of faith, love and obedience.

100% wrong.    Spiritual death is not being absent minded of God or alienated through ignorance.  We are alienated because of sin, because we are sinners.    
 

The death we experience now is a sleep, because we can be woken from it at any moment if God chooses, but the second death is final. The wicked will be turned to ashes, never more to be found, gone. 

100% wrong again.  "Sleep" is a metaphor for death.  Death is not sleep.  You are promoting false teaching.   When you die, you go either to heaven or hell, instantly.  There is no sleep.  You enter into either eternal life or eternal separation from God the very moment of death. 

The wicked will be awake and conscious throughout all of their eternal existence in the Lake of Fire.   That is the only correct and biblical way to look at it.  Your view is wrong (as usual). 

[gdemoss]

To: SavedOne

I can appreciate your thoughts and study.  Thank you for sharing your questions and comments.

Hearing you state that you believe that atleast part of the new testament could have been written in Aramaic is not something I can confirm or deny as I am ignorant of the truth concerning it.  Lord willing I will one day know.

What I saw was evidence to suggest that atleast certain books were written in Greek originally due to the structure of the writing.  I am convinced of this being true.

Something to consider:  During the time of the writing of the new testament,  the Greek Septuagint was used.  The evidence of this is also in scripture where an author quotes from it rather than the Hebrew.  So we actually get a double interpretation where it was first taken from Hebrew to Greek then from Greek to English in our bibles.  Interesring thought.

You asked why would Hebrew fishermen write in Greek to convey the gospel message to the jews.  Rather than try to answer your question through speculation let me ask a question for consideration instead.  Why would the author of Hebrews quote a Greek manuscript rather than a Hebrew one?  

Heb 10:38

Now the just shall live by faith: but ifany man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

There are more that I have been led to see.  Thank you again! 

[Kan]

Yes, the spiritual death is one of being absent minded of God, alienated through ignorance, deficient of faith, love and obedience.

100% wrong.    Spiritual death is not being absent minded of God or alienated through ignorance.  We are alienated because of sin, because we are sinners.    
 

The death we experience now is a sleep, because we can be woken from it at any moment if God chooses, but the second death is final. The wicked will be turned to ashes, never more to be found, gone. 

100% wrong again.  "Sleep" is a metaphor for death.  Death is not sleep.  You are promoting false teaching.   When you die, you go either to heaven or hell, instantly.  There is no sleep.  You enter into either eternal life or eternal separation from God the very moment of death. 

The wicked will be awake and conscious throughout all of their eternal existence in the Lake of Fire.   That is the only correct and biblical way to look at it.  Your view is wrong (as usual). 

The Bible says "whatsoever is not of faith is sin" so I defined sin as part of the separation by talking about faithlessness. So it cannot be 100 % wrong. And also about death being called sleep, Jesus said it, Paul says it. 

Shiloh, I love reading your answers on most topics, but on this one, you seem to be struggling with reading and comprehension, both of posts and the Bible. I have to leave speaking to you directly for a while, until your feet touch the ground again. It may not be the right time for me to challenge you on a belief, which I believe cannot be supported by scripture. You seem to be intelligent, and I expect a lot more of you. I find it difficult to think that you would be so convinced of those doctrines about hell etc.

To say that my belief is "wrong as usual" is implying that everything I say is wrong. Well, if it makes you feel any better I'll accept that. Looking forward to communicating with you on other subjects.

[Kan]

Hell/Hades is just a holding chamber for the souls of the wicked.  They come out for the Great White Throne Judgment and go directly into the Lake of Fire (the Second Death/Resurrection), when Death and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire.  Then the New Heaven and the New Earth and the New Jerusalem will come forth. A pure eternity.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I can think of a couple of verses that many people would say support the idea of Hades being a holding chamber of some sort. Remember these ideas are as old as the hills, you'll find them in pagan mythology and Catholicism, so it is no surprise that those ideas are still prevalent.

But do those texts really say that or have people been reading into it? I ask, because I have never picked up the idea of Hades being such a place from the KJV Bible. 

[Montana Marv]

Hell/Hades is just a holding chamber for the souls of the wicked.  They come out for the Great White Throne Judgment and go directly into the Lake of Fire (the Second Death/Resurrection), when Death and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire.  Then the New Heaven and the New Earth and the New Jerusalem will come forth. A pure eternity.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I can think of a couple of verses that many people would say support the idea of Hades being a holding chamber of some sort. Remember these ideas are as old as the hills, you'll find them in pagan mythology and Catholicism, so it is no surprise that those ideas are still prevalent.

But do those texts really say that or have people been reading into it? I ask, because I have never picked up the idea of Hades being such a place from the KJV Bible. 

Kan

Yes these are as old as the hills.  Say 2000 years old.  Rev 20:12b - 14 -  The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.  The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and  each person was judged according to what he had done.  Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.  The lake of fire is the second death.  If anyone's name was not found written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.   and before all this will happen this has taken place. Rev 20:10 - And the Devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of fire burning with sulfur, where the beast and false prophet had been thrown (1000 years before).  They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So yes, Hades is a holding place.  Once in, those do not come out until the Great White Throne Judgment or Second Death.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

what if it is simply the grave.   only Jesus has risen from the grave never to die again.  the grave is holding everyone else , right ?   ((transport back 4000 years first, and 2000 years second, or find .....   someone who was there ....   He knows)) 

Yes, but where are their souls which are eternal.  The physical body dies, the soul remains, Where does it (soul) go when one's physical body dies?  There are the souls of the wicked, and the souls of the righteous.

In Christ

Montana Marv