Confirming the Covenant

[Spock]

I only see one 3.5 yr period in Revelation. If there are two ple site me the exact references. Thank you.

[Serving]

On Thursday, 29 October 2015 at 2:45 AM, Last Daze said:

I want to focus on this aspect of the seventy weeks prophecy in Daniel 9.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week.  Daniel 9:27

I think I've heard about every possible explanation of this but something struck me recently as I re-read the gospels.  Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel and the focus of His ministry dealt with the condition of men's hearts and heavenly things.  The people could not get past the letter of the law and earthly things.  For example:

• Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated? But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.  Matthew 15:17-18
• You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.  Matthew 5:27-28
• If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?  John 3:12

Over, and over, and over again people were missing the point of His teachings because they were focused on the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law, the natural instead of the spiritual.  The reason that I find this applicable to Daniel 9:27 is that Christ is confirming the new covenant with Israel.

But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.  Jeremiah 31:33

The new covenant is one of the heart.  Jesus spent ~3.5 years confirming this covenant spoken of by Jeremiah, with Israel, as evidenced by His teachings.  Although the new covenant may not have "officially" begun until the shedding of His blood, His entire ministry revolved around explaining it, confirming it.  This leaves roughly 3.5 more years of Christ confirming the covenant with Israel.  I see a couple of possibilities both of which are by proxy:

• the disciples stayed in Israel for 3.5 years before taking the gospel to the Gentiles.
• the two witnesses minister to Israel in the wilderness for 3.5 years just before the return of Christ.

I know that certain things are to be accomplished during the prophecy of the seventy weeks which is why I tend toward the latter of those two.  However, I guess it's possible for those things to have been accomplished during the first century yet not fully realized until the return of Christ.

What I don't see is a future seven year period of time where the man of sin confirms a covenant with Israel for seven years.  Never is there mentioned a seven year period of time in the context of end times prophecy, nor are we ever instructed to look for one as a sign.

I'm not terribly adamant about the seventieth week, since it's only mentioned once, but it just stuck out to me how Christ's ministry of the heart and heavenly things fit the new covenant that Jeremiah spoke of but was largely misunderstood.  I'm open to any scripturally based viewpoints.

who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.  2 Corinthians 3:6

Hi Daze,

I think you should go with what occurred to you.

That it was Christ Himself being cut off (crucified) in the midst of the week .. and since He rose from the dead, being a living God, He continued confirming that very same covenant through His Apostles and by His Holy Ghost for the remainder of that 'week', being the other 3.5 years .. fulfilling this requirement : 'and he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week' ..

This reading of course means one thing .. that the 70 weeks prophecy is fulfilled .. meaning, what we are dealing with now is the remainder of desolations to persist until the consummation, which occurs after Christ returns and is consummated as King of the world before all men to whom every knee shall bow.

 

Meaning that the desolations which continue up til consummation are actually the results of the 70 weeks fulfilment .. the desolations are not a continuation of those 70 weeks, but are the results of the fulfilled '70 week' outcome.

 

70 times 7 = 490 years .. those 490 years concluded over 2000 years ago now and as I stated, what we have now are the ensuing desolations as a result of Israel rejecting the Messiah and His New Covenant ..

 

Interesting side note .. it was a JESUIT priest who first promoted this 70 weeks as some future event not yet fulfilled of which thing was never taught by any Christian previously ! .. this in itself should set off alarms in my book.

 

Thanks Daze.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Serving said:

Hi Daze,

I think you should go with what occurred to you.

That it was Christ Himself being cut off (crucified) in the midst of the week .. and since He rose from the dead, being a living God, He continued confirming that very same covenant through His Apostles and by His Holy Ghost for the remainder of that 'week', being the other 3.5 years .. fulfilling this requirement : 'and he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week' ..

This reading of course means one thing .. that the 70 weeks prophecy is fulfilled .. meaning, what we are dealing with now is the remainder of desolations to persist until the consummation, which occurs after Christ returns and is consummated as King of the world before all men to whom every knee shall bow.

 

Meaning that the desolations which continue up til consummation are actually the results of the 70 weeks fulfilment .. the desolations are not a continuation of those 70 weeks, but are the results of the fulfilled '70 week' outcome.

 

70 times 7 = 490 years .. those 490 years concluded over 2000 years ago now and as I stated, what we have now are the ensuing desolations as a result of Israel rejecting the Messiah and His New Covenant ..

 

Interesting side note .. it was a JESUIT priest who first promoted this 70 weeks as some future event not yet fulfilled of which thing was never taught by any Christian previously ! .. this in itself should set off alarms in my book.

 

Thanks Daze.

Good to see you back posting again, Serving.

That's certainly a possibility.  Any thoughts on what, if anything, may have signified the end of 70th week?  Taking the gospel to the Gentiles?

 

[Serving]

6 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Good to see you back posting again, Serving.

That's certainly a possibility.  Any thoughts on what, if anything, may have signified the end of 70th week?  Taking the gospel to the Gentiles?

 

Thanks Daze,

 

I always settled on 70ad as the signifier but I'm not so sure of that at the moment to be honest because as I went to explain it to you, I saw something which never stood out before today (hopefully it is a sign of a small growth spurt and not regression lol) .. anyway, I want to run it by a very wise friend of mine over the weekend and see what he thinks too before commenting further .. nevertheless, it doesn't affect the discernment of the 70 weeks as fulfilled, it's just something throwing my timeline out of whack is all .. so I hope to have a better understanding by next week if the Lord is willing.

But concerning the 'confirming the covenant', and what 'occurred' to you when reading it, I think you're on the right track, which is what I really wanted to express.

 

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Serving said:

Thanks Daze,

 

I always settled on 70ad as the signifier but I'm not so sure of that at the moment to be honest because as I went to explain it to you, I saw something which never stood out before today (hopefully it is a sign of a small growth spurt and not regression lol) .. anyway, I want to run it by a very wise friend of mine over the weekend and see what he thinks too before commenting further .. nevertheless, it doesn't affect the discernment of the 70 weeks as fulfilled, it's just something throwing my timeline out of whack is all .. so I hope to have a better understanding by next week if the Lord is willing.

But concerning the 'confirming the covenant', and what 'occurred' to you when reading it, I think you're on the right track, which is what I really wanted to express.

Yeah, it became more and more evident when I read the Gospels with that in mind.  It seemed that Israel had neglected the spiritual aspect of things, something we should be careful not to do.

• While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.  2 Corinthians 4:18

The unseen spiritual realm is actually "more real" than the seen natural realm since it's eternal.  It's just much less understood.

[Serving]

On Friday, 18 December 2015 at 7:53 PM, Last Daze said:

Yeah, it became more and more evident when I read the Gospels with that in mind.  It seemed that Israel had neglected the spiritual aspect of things, something we should be careful not to do.

• While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.  2 Corinthians 4:18

The unseen spiritual realm is actually "more real" than the seen natural realm since it's eternal.  It's just much less understood.

 

I know what you mean .. I used to liken the spirit realm as the 'real world' whereas we are bound in a virtual reality world, as it were, where the 'gamers' (angels) can literally 'log in' (enter our realm) and 'log out' at will .. so to speak.

Keeping with your theme, I see these requirements fulfilled in Christ already :

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Some examples I've quickly thrown together .. so I'm not going for the strongest examples just the ones that come to mind first  ..

finish the transgression

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

to make an end of sins

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

John is bolder :

John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

to make reconciliation for iniquity

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

to bring in everlasting righteousness

Romans 3:21-26  

26 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

to seal up the vision and prophecy

Matthew 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

to anoint the most holy

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

I believe that the Lord was anointed when the Spirit descended upon him after John baptised Him .. seeing every high priest must be anointed by God before he starts his ministry.

 

Again, there are better examples, but these should do to show that, as it stands, all these particular requirements for that verse were met by Christ already .. and all within the 70 weeks too .. other words, in this verse at least, there is no need for appeals to the 'future' for fulfilment.

 

[Last Daze]

23 hours ago, Serving said:

 

I know what you mean .. I used to liken the spirit realm as the 'real world' whereas we are bound in a virtual reality world, as it were, where the 'gamers' (angels) can literally 'log in' (enter our realm) and 'log out' at will .. so to speak.

Keeping with your theme, I see these requirements fulfilled in Christ already :

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Some examples I've quickly thrown together .. so I'm not going for the strongest examples just the ones that come to mind first  ..

finish the transgression

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

to make an end of sins

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

John is bolder :

John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

to make reconciliation for iniquity

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

to bring in everlasting righteousness

Romans 3:21-26  

26 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

to seal up the vision and prophecy

Matthew 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

to anoint the most holy

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

I believe that the Lord was anointed when the Spirit descended upon him after John baptised Him .. seeing every high priest must be anointed by God before he starts his ministry.

 

Again, there are better examples, but these should do to show that, as it stands, all these particular requirements for that verse were met by Christ already .. and all within the 70 weeks too .. other words, in this verse at least, there is no need for appeals to the 'future' for fulfilment.

 

Interesting.  I'll have to dwell on that a while.  Thanks.

[WilliamL]

On 12/19/2015 at 6:26 AM, Serving said:

...Keeping with your theme, I see these requirements fulfilled in Christ already :

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Some examples I've quickly thrown together .. so I'm not going for the strongest examples just the ones that come to mind first  ..

finish the transgression

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

...Again, there are better examples, but these should do to show that, as it stands, all these particular requirements for that verse were met by Christ already .. and all within the 70 weeks too .. other words, in this verse at least, there is no need for appeals to the 'future' for fulfilment.

1) You covered the other fulfillments of verse 24 well, no addition needed. But here is a more detailed explanation of "finish the transgression" :

to finish the transgression/peshah…     [The Hebrew word means and refers to the revolt/rebellion/apostasy of the priesthood, the one originally spoken of in Daniel 8:12, 13, 23. This took place when Antiochus Epiphanes, after being bribed, removed the pious Onias III from the high priesthood and installed his apostatizing brother Jason; latter 170s B.C. 1 Macc. 2:15 calls the subsequent debasement of the priesthood and Temple “the apostasy” [apostasian]. Similar corruptions of the priesthood, including bribes, took place during the time of Roman rule. Jesus condemned it, and prophesied the desolation of the religious establishment and destruction of Jerusalem and Temple because of it:

Matt. 23:29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! ... 35 ...upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the holy place and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation. ... 38 Behold, your house [i.e. the Temple] is left to you desolate."

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. ... 22 “For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled."

And where were these things written about the desolations of Jerusalem and its Temple? Nowhere else but in Daniel 9:26-27.

2) Another way of looking at Dan. 9:24-27 is to realize that it has no End Time terminology whatsoever; no --

– time of the end/latter time/latter days, or any similar term found elsewhere in Daniel;

– Great Tribulation/time of trouble such as never was, nor saints, nor any flight of God’s people;

– Messiah’s coming in the clouds, Divine Judgment, and/or the establishment of God’s kingdom;

– coming prince’s demise;

– raising of the dead.

The Hebrew also does not speak at all of an "abomination of desolation." This term is only found in the Greek texts for Daniel 9 from the 4th century AD, which derive from the Egyptian Codices Vaticanus and Sinaiticus; which texts also contain many other variants and additions to the Hebrew record. The Hebrew of the 2nd century BC Dead Sea Scrolls, on the other hand, very closely agree with the Masoretic text.

 

[Serving]

On Friday, 18 December 2015 at 10:39 AM, Last Daze said:

Good to see you back posting again, Serving.

That's certainly a possibility.  Any thoughts on what, if anything, may have signified the end of 70th week?  Taking the gospel to the Gentiles?

 

Hi Daze,

After all these years of confusion I have suffered with this prophecy I am confident I have finally nailed it.

To answer your question .. Yes.

Christ preached to Israel for 3.5 years and Paul preached for 3.5 years to the Gentiles, which together gives us that 1 'week' whereby Christ was crucified (cut off) in the middle (midst) of that same week. (Paul declares his ministry finished after his 3 years teaching the Gentiles which is found in Acts .. the outstanding .5 years would possibly be travel time, making up 3.5 years .. OR .. Paul generalized just like we all do .. you know, "yeah,  8 years ago I did such and such" (but it was really 8 1/2 years ago) .. we all do it.

Of course Paul preached for more than 3.5 years, but it was ONLY during the 1 'week' where the CONFIRMING of said covenant was officially being fulfilled within the 70 week parameter / allotment (remembering the scriptures say that the covenant was being CONFIRMED through the Apostles with miracles & signs & wonders) .. this was within the 70 'weeks' requirement.

Now the reason why God put in the separation of the 7 'weeks' & the 62 'weeks' was this (sorry bout the sloppy 'graph') ..

 

_____________________________________________________________________________________

From the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem ----- UNTO -----the Messiah the Prince  ..                       shall be

_____________________________________________________________________________________

                                               7 'weeks' = 49 years                                    -----   AND  -----            62 'weeks' = 434 years 

_____________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

                                                                                                            49 years + 434 years =483 years = 69 weeks

 

Now I can see WHY God separated the stages into 7 'weeks' AND 62 'weeks' ..

The 7 weeks contains the commandment to rebuild AND the actual rebuilding itself .. thus when the building itself was completed we can acknowledge that 7 'weeks' would have now passed (49 years) to accomplish that requirement .. lock that in.

 

Take that as phase 1.

 

Then God said 62 'weeks' UNTO Messiah  .. but what about the 7 'weeks' ? .. well, this is now phase 2, the 7 'weeks' was phase 1, phase 1 was specific in that it referred to the commandment to rebuild AND the rebuilding itself, so again, only AFTER phase 1 is completed we can begin the counting of the other 62 'weeks' leading UNTO Christ .. which together will make 69 'weeks' total .. because and again God said FROM the commandment to rebuild UNTO Christ would be 7 'weeks' AND 62 'weeks' which of course makes 69 'weeks' .. notice 'unto Christ' .. meaning the beginning of His Ministry (emerged) which commenced at His baptism by John the Baptist when He was 30 years old .. from here (Baptism) is the actual end of the 62 weeks  which at the SAME TIME is the signalling / ushering in of the actual starting point of the last 'week' (7 years = 1 'week').

 

Picture Christ's Baptism .. His being submerged in the Jordan = end of the 62 'weeks' .. to his resurfacing = beginning of His Ministry (Anointed) which in turn kicks off the count for the last week (70th week) for an example.

 

Take that as phase 2.

 

Now since God said AFTER the 62 'weeks' Messiah the Prince shall be cut off .. AFTER 62 weeks mind you .. and as we see, the 62 weeks & the 7 'weeks' are already completed because the city WAS rebuilt and Christ DID COME .. BUT ..  What of His Cutting Off (crucifixion)??

Christ has still NOT yet been CUT OFF even after those 7 'weeks' + 62 'weeks' = 69 'weeks' !! .. Meaning that we ONLY have ONE WEEK left / outstanding in which to manoeuver, whereby Christ is to be CUT OFF AFTER the 69 'weeks' of 7 'weeks' & 62 'weeks' .. there simply aren't any 'weeks' left EXCEPT ......  1 'week' remaining .

Well, that 1 'week' where he was cut off iS the 70th week itself !!

There just aren't any 'weeks' left at this stage except 1 'week' .. and the crucifixion MUST take place within the 70 weeks total itself .. thus the so called 'missing week' is NOT missing at all. (I just couldn't work it out until 'NOW') it was the 'week' of Christ's ministry and Pauls ministry which together lasted 7 years to the day (1 'week') to make up the 70th week.

 

And so, that was phase 3.

 

Thus .. 7 + 62 + 1 = 70 weeks .. (490 years).

 

And now we are left with 0 weeks left .. meaning, NO future "missing week' is possible because it was already fulfilled.

This is what I can see.

PS. From Artaxerxes to the Baptism of Christ in Jordan happens to be 483 years !! (give or take a few years as nobody is 100 % & certain to the precise year), meaning that the beginning of Christ's ministry at 30 years of age was in fact His appearing  (62 'weeks' UNTO Christ) and signalling for the final 'week' (+7 years = 490 years) which saw His crucifixion and Pauls 3.5 years of taking and CONFIRMING the covenant to the Gentiles)

Thanks Daze.

 

[Last Daze]

19 hours ago, Serving said:

 

There just aren't any 'weeks' left at this stage except 1 'week' .. and the crucifixion MUST take place within the 70 weeks total itself .. thus the so called 'missing week' is NOT missing at all. (I just couldn't work it out until 'NOW') it was the 'week' of Christ's ministry and Pauls ministry which together lasted 7 years to the day (1 'week') to make up the 70th week.

 

Thanks Serving for that clear explanation.  It makes perfect sense to me.  I'm not sure how anyone can rationalize the atonement for sin that Christ accomplished on the cross as happening outside of that last week.

I am curious though as to what the time markers are that you base the latter 3-3.5 year span on in Acts.  We know that Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel and He instructed His disciples not to go to the Gentiles:

• These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.  Matthew 10:5-6
• But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”  Matthew 15:24

He confirmed the new covenant with Israel for ~3.5 years and when they rejected Him, the Gentiles were grafted in.  Do you think that the early rain of the Holy Spirit, with the confirming signs and wonders that you mentioned, equates to the latter ~3.5 years of confirming the new covenant, this time among the Gentiles?  I'm not suggesting that the "sign" gifts only lasted 3.5 years but that they sufficiently confirmed the new covenant during that time, and the last week was completed.