When is Satan/Dragon/Devil thrown out of Heaven

[ezekiel]

Ezekiel 28

¹³ Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

¹⁴ Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Up and down are North and South. Stones of fire speaks for them self.

Montana Marv In the building of the Temple the house was build in the West.

Have you studied Solomon's Temple why in the world would he build two brass pillars with a capital.

1 Kings 7:16

And he made two chapiters of molten brass, to set upon the tops of the pillars: the height of the one chapiter was five cubits, and the height of the other chapiter was five cubits:

 

 

 

[BlindSeeker]

Good thread, excellent comments and reasoning. Here's my thoughts on the timing of the devil being cast out.

 According to scripture Jesus “beheld Satan… fall," past tense. Now in prophetic visions it is normal to see events come to pass before the events literally happen. The books of Isaiah, Daniel, and Revelation should provide adequate proof for any skeptic. However, the most significant proof that this was a "prophetic vision" and not just an "event" resulting from Jesus sending the disciple on theirs mission can be found in the following statements made by Jesus later on.

John 12:23 - And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit… 27 Now is My soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save Me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify Thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. 29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to Him. 30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of Me, but for your sakes. 31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me. 33 This he said, signifying what death He should die. 34 The people answered Him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth forever: and how sayest Thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

John 14:28 - Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away and come again unto you. If you love Me, ye would rejoice, because I said I go unto My Father: for My Father [being omnipresent] is greater than I [as a man]. 29 And now I told you before it come to pass, that when it is come to pass, you might believe. 30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.

John 16:7 - I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I [as a man] go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you. 8 And when He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment… 11 Of judgment because the prince of this world is judged.

In these verses we hear Jesus refer to Satan’s fall (which He had already "beheld") as something about to happen. We also see it referred to as the time in which "the prince of this world is judged." It was just prior to His crucifixion that Jesus said, "NOW shall the prince of this world be cast out" and "the prince of this world cometh." Both these phrases are unquestionably announcing an event about to occur and not one that already has, unless people wish to argue what “now” means like Bill Clinton tried with “is.”

Therefore, to me it seems evident time of occurrence of this “now” appears to be linked with the time of Christ’s death, or as John 12:23 refers to it, the time whereby Jesus was to be eternally “glorified.” For Jesus knew the devil “hath nothing in Me” while He had been locked in time and space via His humanity for He had remained in constant subjection to the infinite Holy Spirit of God. Having successfully lived as a man not governed by His fleshly appetites or emotions, it was impossible for the devil to find any place to justly accuse Him of sin or self-glorification. Jesus’ secret? He had committed Himself to the Spirit and kept His eyes on the joy set before Him.

Four key words I think all should take note of and remember that are clearly in scriptural context undeniably connected to the Jesus’ work upon the cross: "Justified, glorified, judged" and "condemned." God was "justified in the flesh" and therefore "glorified." The devil was "judged" and therefore "condemned," both at the same time. Both by the same event; the shedding of God’s blood on Calvary!

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, [God was] justified in the Spirit, [God was] seen of angels, [God] preached unto the Gentiles, [God was] believed on in the world, [God was] received up into glory.

[WilliamL]

Luke 10:18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan falling [aorist participle] like lightning from heaven."

There is a lot of ambiguity here. Aorist verbs, which are generally translated as past tense, are without time/horizon. Therefore, this statement of Jesus gives no indication of how long this falling takes place, nor when it ends. Nor, as Blindseeker points out, even when it begins, if this is taken to be a prophetic vision.

Also, the statement does not even necessarily mean that having fallen, satan could not re-ascend. If his falling was due to the faithfulness of the disciples, then an apostasy of the same might well undo things.

27 minutes ago, BlindSeeker said:

John 12: 31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Which world? Apparently that of the Covenant People of that Age. They fell into apostasy, and their world came to an end. Because this judgment is certainly different from the judgment of the world described in Revelation, which comes after the apostasy of the Church Age, when satan is cast down again.

[BlindSeeker]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Luke 10:18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan falling [aorist participle] like lightning from heaven."

There is a lot of ambiguity here. Aorist verbs, which are generally translated as past tense, are without time/horizon. Therefore, this statement of Jesus gives no indication of how long this falling takes place, nor when it ends. Nor, as Blindseeker points out, even when it begins, if this is taken to be a prophetic vision.

Also, the statement does not even necessarily mean that having fallen, satan could not re-ascend. If his falling was due to the faithfulness of the disciples, then an apostasy of the same might well undo things.

 

To be forthcoming, I am not overly familiar with reading Greek so as to be able to address this "aorist participle" with any authority, nor would I try. I simply must acknowledge that there are more learned men than I who have examined these things with considerable more depth than I have been able to. That said, I did some research into these "aorist verbs" and found this explanation that I felt was worthy of sharing with others who like me might need some light shed on the point you are making by referencing them. The below was copied from this site here.

For example, in Matthew 14:29, when Jesus was walking on the water, He told Peter "Come", which is in the aorist imperative form in Greek. Although Jesus used a verb in the aorist tense, He surely was not telling Peter to come at some time in the past, as 'came' would indicate; but He was telling him to do something at the present time. If Jesus would have desired to put some special emphasis on the progress of Peter's coming to Him, He could have said "Be coming" in the present imperative. Since the present tense indicates progressive or continuous kind of action, using the present would have indicated something to the affect that each and every step Peter took would have been a task or accomplishment in itself. This is one of the many examples which show that outside of the indicative mood, oftentimes the aorist tense is used (although the present tense is used quite frequently also). The diligent seeker of New Testament truth will take careful note of this most crucial aspect of Greek verb usage. 

And this is found at this site here.

Aorist Tense

The aorist is said to be "simple occurrence" or "summary occurrence", without regard for the amount of time taken to accomplish the action. This tense is also often referred to as the 'punctiliar' tense. 'Punctiliar' in this sense means 'viewed as a single, collective whole,' a "one-point-in-time" action, although it may actually take place over a period of time. In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense.

For example:

"God...made us alive together with Christ." Eph 2:5
"He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus." Phil 1:6

 

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Which world? Apparently that of the Covenant People of that Age. They fell into apostasy, and their world came to an end. Because this judgment is certainly different from the judgment of the world described in Revelation, which comes after the apostasy of the Church Age, when satan is cast down again.

 

Well that certainly is a perspective worthy of prayerful consideration, but not the only one. It is obvious that there is a judgment of men that has been deferred to the end as you mentioned being "described in Revelation." However, it also seems evident from scripture that there is another manifestation of His righteous judgment that God has not always been so quick to bring on men or nations until they have crossed a threshold of tolerance that He in His wisdom determined.

Also, while God has always shown Himself to be a God of mercy, He also stated He would by no means clear the *guilty. But can God have mercy without judgment? Personally, I don’t think so. For though without a doubt the time is nigh at hand where there will be an outpouring of judgment without mercy, mercy will never precede judgment but always follows after it. Such is why we are told to judge ourselves that we be not judge.

*Exodus 34:7 - Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Therefore, since the greatest display of judgment is witnessed in the pinnacle event of all eternity via Jesus death upon the cross where "He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: He chastisement of our peace was upon Him,” and mercy being witnessed as well in that “with His stripes we are healed. [Because] all we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.”

The work of the cross was an open display of the judgment of the world; because as the scripture says, “the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.” Therefore, God having justified Himself by executing His righteous judgment had secured forever that means through the shedding of ¹His blood whereby He could be ²just in justifying the ungodly who, having believed, have confessed their sins and turned from their wicked ways enabling God to in His righteous judgment to have mercy upon men. Therefore, God having been ³justified by openly ⁴defeating His adversary both judged and condemned the devil, and IMHO, cast the adversary forever out from His heavenly domain.

¹Acts 20:28 - Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He [God] hath purchased with His own blood.

² Romans 3:25 - Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

³1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, [God was] justified in the Spirit, [God was] seen of angels, [God] preached unto the Gentiles, [God was] believed on in the world, [God was] received up into glory.

⁴Colossians 2:15 - And having spoiled principalities and powers, He made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it [the cross].

 

 

[thereselittleflower]

8 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

Good thread, excellent comments and reasoning. Here's my thoughts on the timing of the devil being cast out.

 According to scripture Jesus “beheld Satan… fall," past tense. Now in prophetic visions it is normal to see events come to pass before the events literally happen. The books of Isaiah, Daniel, and Revelation should provide adequate proof for any skeptic. However, the most significant proof that this was a "prophetic vision" and not just an "event" resulting from Jesus sending the disciple on theirs mission can be found in the following statements made by Jesus later on.

John 12:23 - And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit… 27 Now is My soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save Me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify Thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. 29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to Him. 30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of Me, but for your sakes. 31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me. 33 This he said, signifying what death He should die. 34 The people answered Him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth forever: and how sayest Thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

John 14:28 - Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away and come again unto you. If you love Me, ye would rejoice, because I said I go unto My Father: for My Father [being omnipresent] is greater than I [as a man]. 29 And now I told you before it come to pass, that when it is come to pass, you might believe. 30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.

John 16:7 - I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I [as a man] go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you. 8 And when He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment… 11 Of judgment because the prince of this world is judged.

In these verses we hear Jesus refer to Satan’s fall (which He had already "beheld") as something about to happen. We also see it referred to as the time in which "the prince of this world is judged." It was just prior to His crucifixion that Jesus said, "NOW shall the prince of this world be cast out" and "the prince of this world cometh." Both these phrases are unquestionably announcing an event about to occur and not one that already has, unless people wish to argue what “now” means like Bill Clinton tried with “is.”

Therefore, to me it seems evident time of occurrence of this “now” appears to be linked with the time of Christ’s death, or as John 12:23 refers to it, the time whereby Jesus was to be eternally “glorified.” For Jesus knew the devil “hath nothing in Me” while He had been locked in time and space via His humanity for He had remained in constant subjection to the infinite Holy Spirit of God. Having successfully lived as a man not governed by His fleshly appetites or emotions, it was impossible for the devil to find any place to justly accuse Him of sin or self-glorification. Jesus’ secret? He had committed Himself to the Spirit and kept His eyes on the joy set before Him.

Four key words I think all should take note of and remember that are clearly in scriptural context undeniably connected to the Jesus’ work upon the cross: "Justified, glorified, judged" and "condemned." God was "justified in the flesh" and therefore "glorified." The devil was "judged" and therefore "condemned," both at the same time. Both by the same event; the shedding of God’s blood on Calvary!

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, [God was] justified in the Spirit, [God was] seen of angels, [God] preached unto the Gentiles, [God was] believed on in the world, [God was] received up into glory.

Unfortunately relying on English when the scriptures were written in Greek is not a wise practice.

• "Jesus “beheld Satan… fall," past tense."

 

In the Greek "I beheld"  is not in the past tense.

It is in the imperfect tense.

 

 

 

[Reinitin]

On 10/30/2015 at 11:53 AM, Montana Marv said:

We know that Satan has been the accuser of all the saints.  OT and NT Saints.  We saw it in Job, we see it today for the Church.  So when Satan is no longer in heaven, he ceases to be the accuser in heaven, day and night.  Who then can he accuse to God, if not there in heaven.  Once hurled down he knows his time is short. (Rev 12:12)

We see that once he is hurled down (along with his fallen angels) that he pursues the woman (Israel) who gave birth to the Christ child. (Rev 12:13).  Israel flees into the wilderness for 3 1/2 years or 1,260 days.  So Satan is thrown down at or just after the midpoint of the 70th Week.  As a side note; When does the A/C, beast, son of perdition, lawless one rule?  He must rule during the first 3 1/2 years, 1,260 days of the 70th Week.  For Satan is superior to the A/C.  AS in Matt 24:15 - So when you see standing in the holy place, the A/D spoken of through the prophet Daniel, let the reader understand, then let those in Judea flee to the mountains... (Rev 12)

So two individuals will take their seat in the Temple;  Antichrist and shortly afterward Satan, once the A/D was set up by the A/C.

We see more or less a world peace controlled by the A/C and the false prophet during the first half of the 70th Week.  Then we see a collapse in the trust of the world system when Satan comes down, and rules for the second half the the 70th Week.  Total chaos.  Look at the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl Judgments.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I'm by no means an eschatology scholar but, i think satan was cast out when the disciple started their ministry.  Luke 10 :18 I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.—The tense of the first Greek verb implies continuous action: I was beholding Satan as he fell . . . While they were working their Master had been following them in spirit, gazing, as it were, on each stage of their victorious conflict. Their triumph over the demons was the beginning and the earnest of a final conquest over Satan as “the prince of the demons.” There may, possibly, be a reference to the belief then beginning to be current among the Jews as to the fall of Satan after his creation; but the primary meaning of our Lord’s words is that he was now dethroned from his usurped dominion in the “high places” (comp. Ephesians 6:12), which symbolised the spiritual region of the soul and mind of man. The imagery reappears in a developed form in Revelation 12:9.

With Jesus in the temple as our high priest satan can not accuse us before God anymore we are under grace.

I think this was something that was. John was told about things in the past things present things that are and things in the future. I do not think he is in heaven accusing the church before God Jesus is the one walking among the lamp stands now not Satan. The accuser accuses us before man now.

 

 Revelation 12 makes it clear that that right was removed from Satan when Christ's mission was accomplished. In fact, Luke 10 makes the timing abundantly clear:

17. The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”
18. He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 
19. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 
20. However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.” (Luke 10:17-20).

I think this happened with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 a d.  We see that once he is hurled down (along with his fallen angels) that he pursues the woman (Israel) who gave birth to the Christ child. (Rev 12:13).  Israel flees into the wilderness for 3 1/2 years or 1,260 days. 

When does the A/C, beast, son of perdition, lawless one rule?  He must rule during the first 3 1/2 years, 1,260 days of the 70th Week.  For Satan is superior to the A/C.  AS in Matt 24:15 - So when you see standing in the holy place, the A/D spoken of through the prophet Daniel, let the reader understand, then let those in Judea flee to the mountains... (Rev 12)

was Antiochus. Right now we are dealing with the harlot on the beast.

 

Edited February 17, 2016 by Reinitin

[thereselittleflower]

1 hour ago, thereselittleflower said:

Unfortunately relying on English when the scriptures were written in Greek is not a wise practice.

• "Jesus “beheld Satan… fall," past tense."

 

In the Greek "I beheld"  is not in the past tense.

It is in the imperfect tense.

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Reinitin said:

I'm by no means an eschatology scholar but, i think satan was cast out when the disciple started their ministry.  Luke 10 :18 I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.—The tense of the first Greek verb implies continuous action: I was beholding Satan as he fell . . . While they were working their Master had been following them in spirit, gazing, as it were, on each stage of their victorious conflict. Their triumph over the demons was the beginning and the earnest of a final conquest over Satan as “the prince of the demons.”

 

 

Yes, that is the imperfect tense.

 

 

[Montana Marv]

Reinitin

Hold your horse lady.

Rev 12:10 - For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

He is filled with fury, because he knows his time is short. 

Rev was written about 95 AD.  Who are Johns brothers (those in Christ like himself)  If Satan was removed after Christs ministry.  John had no brothers in Christ to be accused.  For the Church did not begin until Pentecost, after Christs ministry.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[thereselittleflower]

 

6 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Reinitin

Hold your horse lady.

Rev 12:10 - For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

He is filled with fury, because he knows his time is short. 

Rev was written about 95 AD.  Who are Johns brothers (those in Christ like himself)  If Satan was removed after Christs ministry.  John had no brothers in Christ to be accused.  For the Church did not begin until Pentecost, after Christs ministry.

In Christ

Montana Marv

That doesn't mean it's future.

[BlindSeeker]

15 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Reinitin

Hold your horse lady.

Rev 12:10 - For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

He is filled with fury, because he knows his time is short. 

Rev was written about 95 AD.  Who are Johns brothers (those in Christ like himself)  If Satan was removed after Christs ministry.  John had no brothers in Christ to be accused.  For the Church did not begin until Pentecost, after Christs ministry.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Well, I guess it is going to depend on which translation you are reading as to whether it reads "acccuses" or "accused." Here are 7 with the past tense being implied -

(KJV) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

(DBY) And I heard a great voice in the heaven saying, Now is come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ; for the accuser of our brethren has been cast out, who accused them before our God day and night:

(MKJV) And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night.

(MNT) And I heard a great voice in heaven, which said: "Now it is come! the salvation and the power, The kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ! For the accuser of our brethren is thrown down, Who accused them before our God, day and night.

(NKJV) Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

(Oracl) And I heard a great voice saying, in heaven, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ; because the accuser of our brethren is cast out, who accused them before our God day and night.

(TCNT) And I heard a loud voice in Heaven which said-- 'Now has begun the day of the Salvation, and Power, and Dominion of our God, and the Rule of his Christ; for the Accuser of our Brothers has been hurled down, he who has been accusing them before our God day and night.

Still regardless, if we simply follow the text being mindful the fact that the accuser is a finite being locked in time and space, then if he has been cast down he is no longer before God to accuse.