Creation and an Old Earth - One Possibility

[FresnoJoe]

39 minutes ago, Kan said:

We both know that the Bible is written specifically to bring to light the gospel of Jesus Christ, beginning in Genesis with the familiar words "In the beginning, God created..."

Salvation is due to the creative power of God, which we understand to be, not only creative, but redemptive, as we go through the Bible. Our view of God's creative power, is paramount in understanding God and His Gift of salvation.

Some people think that it does not matter what we think about the creation, however I believe that Genesis lays the foundations of all doctrine in the Bible about God and salvation through the Son. By the same comparison, a true understanding of the power in the gospel, should give us the correct view of creation.

~

What's It All About

Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Hebrews 10:7

But The Love

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2

Of God

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:11

[SavedOnebyGrace]

10 hours ago, Kan said:

We both know that the Bible is written specifically to bring to light the gospel of Jesus Christ, beginning in Genesis with the familiar words "In the beginning, God created..."

Salvation is due to the creative power of God, which we understand to be, not only creative, but redemptive, as we go through the Bible. Our view of God's creative power, is paramount in understanding God and His Gift of salvation.

Some people think that it does not matter what we think about the creation, however I believe that Genesis lays the foundations of all doctrine in the Bible about God and salvation through the Son. By the same comparison, a true understanding of the power in the gospel, should give us the correct view of creation.

On this basis, adding long periods of time or borrowed time and or any preexisting material into creation, produces a lie about the provisions in salvation, which are instant and complete in Christ, without any indebtedness to any human contribution or process of nature. The Gift of God in Salvation is a miracle, it is like creation, where God makes something from nothing, without the need for development, time or material, just His word alone is able to bring things into existence, and allow them to be as if they had always been. So sinners, may come to God, without any merit, sitting in darkness, and find complete acceptance and restoration for their souls, to be instantly in touch with God.

We cannot afford to have a watered down gospel, because there is no salvation is such versions, and by the same token, we ought to feel very strongly about the creation account, knowing that it reflects the characteristics of the Almighty, and not allowing it to be contaminated, by what men find more convenient in their limited perceptions. 

The idea of some sort of world before the beginning, that is the 1st day of creation, does not agree with its plainest interpretation. No matter how complex our knowledge of creation, it should always be able to be deduced from the plainest textual interpretation.

What some have bought forward about a Satanic disaster on earth before our creation, is an elaboration which cannot be supported from the plain text. If it were true, someone of the millions of saints that have lived before would have commented on it, but none of God's servants in the Bible or in history have done this with the scriptures.

Many have written detailed responses, using Holy Scriptures, explaining away your objections.  Since you object to them, you'll object to anything I will write.  I prefer not to waste the knowledge the Holy Spirit has imparted to me concerning OEC to the closed-minded.

[Kan]

18 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Many have written detailed responses, using Holy Scriptures, explaining away your objections.  Since you object to them, you'll object to anything I will write.  I prefer not to waste the knowledge the Holy Spirit has imparted to me concerning OEC to the closed-minded.

The particular theory that you see as supported from scripture, looks good in the way that it was presented, making literary comparisons between the two supposed eras of the earth's beginning. But it depends on making another period of time on earth, before its beginning, it denies the 6 day creation time.

It is on this point that many do not have faith in God, that He is able to produce such a creation in the stated time. So we have many voices deviating in whatever way possible.

It will be made very clear in the future why the creation week has been attacked, especially in regards to its timing, because the law of God states that the world and all that is in it, was made in 6 days, and that there were no eons of time on earth, before the beginning. Exodus 20:11. The law of God is the only thing given to the world written by the finger of God - the only such article ever on earth. Did God write a lie with His own finger? "In the beginning..." God created the earth and all that is in it, "in six days."

I do not believe or want to suggest that you don't have the Holy Spirit at your side, because of this view. But we are quite safe if we read the Bible as a newcomer, or a child, without any preconceived ideas and imaginations.

Many introduce fascinating fables under the pretext of scripture to make a name for themselves, but it only produces a death warrant. Paul said that people wrest the scriptures to their own destruction. The men who placed these ideas into the public arena are definitely not of God.

In summary, this theory of a pre "creation week" earth, blatantly ignores the text, it goes below poor English, and fails basic comprehension. 

 

 

[SavedOnebyGrace]

25 minutes ago, Kan said:

The particular theory that you see as supported from scripture, looks good in the way that it was presented, making literary comparisons between the two supposed eras of the earth's beginning. But it depends on making another period of time on earth, before its beginning, it denies the 6 day creation time.

You make my point.  You can't even write two sentences without making a false statement.  OEC and the Gap Theory does not deny the 6 days of creation (restoration).  I see it as 6-24 hour days plus 1-24 hour day as a day of rest.

[Kan]

18 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

You make my point.  You can't even write two sentences without making a false statement.  OEC and the Gap Theory does not deny the 6 days of creation (restoration).  I see it as 6-24 hour days plus 1-24 hour day as a day of rest.

I did not mean to misquote you. But we would have to agree that "beginning" means beginning, not "after another beginning."

Does the Bible read like this, - "before the beginning, there was a long time on earth where the devil roamed, and this was destroyed by a flood, and then the lord made another earth in 6 days."

[SavedOnebyGrace]

1 hour ago, Kan said:

I did not mean to misquote you. But we would have to agree that "beginning" means beginning, not "after another beginning."

Does the Bible read like this, - "before the beginning, there was a long time on earth where the devil roamed, and this was destroyed by a flood, and then the lord made another earth in 6 days."

You still don't understand.  Genesis 1:1,

Genesis 1:1  In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. (ESV)

This is not day 1 as I've explained elsewhere in these threads and posts.  This is a completed work on God's part. 

Jamieson Fausset Brown Commentary explains it this way:

In the beginning — a period of remote and unknown antiquity, hid in the depths of eternal ages; and so the phrase is used in Proverbs 8:22, Proverbs 8:23.
God — the name of the Supreme Being, signifying in Hebrew, “Strong,” “Mighty.” It is expressive of omnipotent power; and by its use here in the plural form, is obscurely taught at the opening of the Bible, a doctrine clearly revealed in other parts of it, namely, that though God is one, there is a plurality of persons in the Godhead - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who were engaged in the creative work (Proverbs 8:27; John 1:3, John 1:10; Ephesians 3:9; Hebrews 1:2; Job 26:13).
created — not formed from any pre-existing materials, but made out of nothing.
the heaven and the earth — the universe. This first verse is a general introduction to the inspired volume, declaring the great and important truth that all things had a beginning; that nothing throughout the wide extent of nature existed from eternity, originated by chance, or from the skill of any inferior agent; but that the whole universe was produced by the creative power of God (Acts 17:24; Romans 11:36). After this preface, the narrative is confined to the earth.

Genesis 1:2  The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

the earth was without form and void — or in “confusion and emptiness,” as the words are rendered in Isaiah 34:11. This globe, at some undescribed period, having been convulsed and broken up, was a dark and watery waste for ages perhaps, till out of this chaotic state, the present fabric of the world was made to arise.
the Spirit of God moved — literally, continued brooding over it, as a fowl does, when hatching eggs. The immediate agency of the Spirit, by working on the dead and discordant elements, combined, arranged, and ripened them into a state adapted for being the scene of a new creation. The account of this new creation properly begins at the end of this second verse; and the details of the process are described in the natural way an onlooker would have done, who beheld the changes that successively took place.

This is the explanation of the first two verses in Genesis.  Day 1 does not begin until verse Genesis 1:3, with God speaking,

Genesis 1:3  And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

God said — This phrase, which occurs so repeatedly in the account means: willed, decreed, appointed; and the determining will of God was followed in every instance by an immediate result. Whether the sun was created at the same time with, or long before, the earth, the dense accumulation of fogs and vapors which enveloped the chaos had covered the globe with a settled gloom. But by the command of God, light was rendered visible; the thick murky clouds were dispersed, broken, or rarefied, and light diffused over the expanse of waters. The effect is described in the name “day,” which in Hebrew signifies “warmth,” “heat”; while the name “night” signifies a “rolling up,” as night wraps all things in a shady mantle.

If you have e-Sword and/or the paper copies of Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible, you can supplement your understanding of the first three verses as presented in the Jamieson Fausset Brown Commentary.   These aren't my favorite commentaries, but they are easy to post into replies.

[JohnD]

5 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Many have written detailed responses, using Holy Scriptures, explaining away your objections.  Since you object to them, you'll object to anything I will write.  I prefer not to waste the knowledge the Holy Spirit has imparted to me concerning OEC to the closed-minded.

How have you tested the knowledge and the spirit (which you perceive of as the Holy Spirit)?

1 John 4:1 says we are to test the spirits to see if they are actually from God.

Just curious, have you done so?

 

 

[Kan]

6 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

You still don't understand.  Genesis 1:1,

Genesis 1:1  In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. (ESV)

This is not day 1 as I've explained elsewhere in these threads and posts.  This is a completed work on God's part. 

Jamieson Fausset Brown Commentary explains it this way:

In the beginning — a period of remote and unknown antiquity, hid in the depths of eternal ages; and so the phrase is used in Proverbs 8:22, Proverbs 8:23.
God — the name of the Supreme Being, signifying in Hebrew, “Strong,” “Mighty.” It is expressive of omnipotent power; and by its use here in the plural form, is obscurely taught at the opening of the Bible, a doctrine clearly revealed in other parts of it, namely, that though God is one, there is a plurality of persons in the Godhead - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who were engaged in the creative work (Proverbs 8:27; John 1:3, John 1:10; Ephesians 3:9; Hebrews 1:2; Job 26:13).
created — not formed from any pre-existing materials, but made out of nothing.
the heaven and the earth — the universe. This first verse is a general introduction to the inspired volume, declaring the great and important truth that all things had a beginning; that nothing throughout the wide extent of nature existed from eternity, originated by chance, or from the skill of any inferior agent; but that the whole universe was produced by the creative power of God (Acts 17:24; Romans 11:36). After this preface, the narrative is confined to the earth.

Genesis 1:2  The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

the earth was without form and void — or in “confusion and emptiness,” as the words are rendered in Isaiah 34:11. This globe, at some undescribed period, having been convulsed and broken up, was a dark and watery waste for ages perhaps, till out of this chaotic state, the present fabric of the world was made to arise.
the Spirit of God moved — literally, continued brooding over it, as a fowl does, when hatching eggs. The immediate agency of the Spirit, by working on the dead and discordant elements, combined, arranged, and ripened them into a state adapted for being the scene of a new creation. The account of this new creation properly begins at the end of this second verse; and the details of the process are described in the natural way an onlooker would have done, who beheld the changes that successively took place.

This is the explanation of the first two verses in Genesis.  Day 1 does not begin until verse Genesis 1:3, with God speaking,

Genesis 1:3  And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

God said — This phrase, which occurs so repeatedly in the account means: willed, decreed, appointed; and the determining will of God was followed in every instance by an immediate result. Whether the sun was created at the same time with, or long before, the earth, the dense accumulation of fogs and vapors which enveloped the chaos had covered the globe with a settled gloom. But by the command of God, light was rendered visible; the thick murky clouds were dispersed, broken, or rarefied, and light diffused over the expanse of waters. The effect is described in the name “day,” which in Hebrew signifies “warmth,” “heat”; while the name “night” signifies a “rolling up,” as night wraps all things in a shady mantle.

If you have e-Sword and/or the paper copies of Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible, you can supplement your understanding of the first three verses as presented in the Jamieson Fausset Brown Commentary.   These aren't my favorite commentaries, but they are easy to post into replies.

You have given a very clear answer, and I'm sorry if I did not take more notice of what you posted earlier. 

It is puzzling, because it says that "the earth was without form and void." Even so, we don't see the earth "appear" until the third day. The texts do allow an expanded thought, but what do the rest of the scriptures allow on that? Could it be that the earth was not materialized until the third day?

I believe "the waters" and the "face of the deep" are supernatural forms of power that cradle a new creation. For instance we read in the Psalms about the waters that be above the heavens (stars). But other people think that they are standard H2O. ? I can't allow an earth to be in existence before the spoken word on the first day. But that's just my view.

If we have the earth existing before this six day period, then when was it made? Chapter 2 verses 1 and 2, suggest the whole lot was made in six days. "...all His work..."

 

[n2thelight]

1 hour ago, Kan said:

You have given a very clear answer, and I'm sorry if I did not take more notice of what you posted earlier.

It is puzzling, because it says that "the earth was without form and void." Even so, we don't see the earth "appear" until the third day. The texts do allow an expanded thought, but what do the rest of the scriptures allow on that? Could it be that the earth was not materialized until the third day?

I believe "the waters" and the "face of the deep" are supernatural forms of power that cradle a new creation. For instance we read in the Psalms about the waters that be above the heavens (stars). But other people think that they are standard H2O. ? I can't allow an earth to be in existence before the spoken word on the first day. But that's just my view.

If we have the earth existing before this six day period, then when was it made? Chapter 2 verses 1 and 2, suggest the whole lot was made in six days. "...all His work..."

 

 

Go back to verse 1 God created the Heavens and the earth ...when He did this,it wa perfect....It the earth became void and without form.

The question one needs to ask is how and why

God destroyed it(not Noahs flood) because of satans rebellion

 

Try the below link it explains it well

http://www.thehiddenword.com/BibleStudies/Three%20Earth%20Ages%20And%20The%20End%20Of%20Time.pdf

 

Edited December 27, 2015 by n2thelight

[Kan]

12 hours ago, n2thelight said:

 

Go back to verse 1 God created the Heavens and the earth ...when He did this,it wa perfect....It the earth became void and without form.

The question one needs to ask is how and why

God destroyed it(not Noahs flood) because of satans rebellion

 

Try the below link it explains it well

http://www.thehiddenword.com/BibleStudies/Three%20Earth%20Ages%20And%20The%20End%20Of%20Time.pdf

 

The earth was without form and void. Not became without form and void.

But once again the theory introduces the earth as existing prior to the six days of creation. Also it makes the story of Satan pertain to earth, and not heaven, where the rebellion and war took place. He was cast out of heaven.

Moses quotes the Lord as saying when the earth appeared (or materialized, in my opinion). Chapter 1 verses 9 and 10, on the third day the earth was made, and then God called it so. Note that God made the heaven the day before and named it so. This could mean that the heaven and earth did not exist before that time. But it goes against the pre - existing earth theory, in any case.

Verses one and two are an introduction to the creation account, not a separate story. That's basic English. Check to see if your Bible shows a punctuation or indentation mark for the original paragraphs in writing. This helps decipher what subjects were grouped together. 

In a spiritual tone, if the creation story is considered to be paramount to the book of salvation, then it cannot speak of any pre - existing world or material before the word of God brings it into existence, because that implies that if God does a miracle, He is indebted to something else other than His word. This means that when you come to God for salvation, and you have absolutely nothing to offer, you are doomed.

But we understand that all of God's provisions are in His word, and that by it we may be saved without anything to contribute to our own salvation.

This truth is declared by the apostle Paul in II Corinthians 4:6,7 -  "For God who commanded the light to shine out of the darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ...that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us."

This is a direct reference to creation.

Any theory that teaches a pre - existing material before the spoken word, is one that says, "You have to have some merit of your own before God can do anything for you." That would be a doctrine of death, wouldn't it?

And seeing that the Bible is the book of salvation, it will not begin with a contradicting theme to it's purpose.

Of course it could be said that God made the earth before the six days, but where does the Bible actually allow that conclusion?