Kan Posted November 28, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted November 28, 2015 2 minutes ago, SINNERSAVED said: gods ways are not our ways, and so some things are best left to God for we cannot comprehend or understand all of his ways, for who would send his son to the cross for you and for me , something that would not make any sense, but it is because God is a just and holy God and there is no way ,we will ever know what he does ,for he has formed us and will never be in question for he sees all ,and knows all, and we are just sinners saved by grace, waiting for the time of his redemption. Nevertheless what Gtan said is true in the aspect talked about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted November 28, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.98 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted November 28, 2015 God chose me. I answered his call. He is working in me until I become a finished work. I am nothing without God and never have been. And no one can take me out of His hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 3 hours ago, ghtan said: There are several scripture that suggests God does not know the entire future but I think the clearest is Mark 13:32 which we (I think it was with you) were discussing under a different thread. Jesus was God and he admitted he did not know the date of his return. You cannot get any more plain than that. The usual explanation is that Jesus voluntarily imposed restriction on his omniscience while he was on earth. Besides there being no scriptural backing for this idea, it invites several problems not least that it implies Jesus was not fully God even if only temporarily. Yet, our salvation rests on no less than God being sacrificed for our sins. If the future is not fixed, there is a better solution. I believe God had not fixed the date of Jesus' return and so he did not know the date and hence neither did Jesus. Jesus was merely saying that it was God's prerogative to decide the date; he did not say God knew it already. This solution preserves the full divinity of Jesus. A future that is not fixed allows me to take this view. Actually, Phil 2:5-11 makes the case that Jesus was limited (voluntarily and temporarily) in certain divine prerogatives while on earth. Jesus did not take His equality with God as something to be exploited to his own advantage according to Paul and he emptied himself of those prerogatives. He did not give up any attributes, but imposed upon himself a willingness to operate as a fully human person in complete reliance upon the Father. People forget that Jesus was modeling the Christian life. Jesus did not deal with Satan in His divinity, otherwise he could not have been tempted. Had he not been tempted, he could not have modeled for us how to handle it. Jesus dealt with temptation in his humanity, overcoming it with the Word of God and with the power of the Holy Spirit and that is exactly how He expects us to deal with temptation. Jesus prayed, as a man, even though He was God. Again, he was modeling prayer for us. Jesus, more than once, proclaimed that he was doing the works of His Father and that His words were the words of the Father. Jesus did not, according to him, operate apart from the constant direction of the Father. It is clear that Jesus, as a man, though still fully God, accepted and voluntarily took upon Himself the limitations of a man for the duration of His time on earth. Note that as God Jesus was, prior to this incarnation, omnipresent. Yet in a physical body, he was not omnipresent thus limited to one place in space and time. That does not mean Jesus was not fully God. None of the limitations he operated under, in any way, diminished his deity. Where does the Bible say that God had not fixed the future date of the return of Jesus? That is an assumption you are drawing. Show from the OT and from the Gospels that it is clear that God had no idea when the Second Coming would come. There are over 1,500 references to Jesus' second coming in the OT. 36 OT prophets speak of it. Please show from them that God had no idea, no fixed date for the return of Jesus. Who says the future is not fixed? Where is that supported in Scripture??? Actually, a future that is not fixed diminishes God entirely because God always operates in the fullness of time. God is not in the dark about the future. If God is in the dark about the future, then He is blind to any potential obstacle to the plan of salvation. If God is in the dark about the future, then God cannot guarantee salvation to anyone. We cannot trust that God will be able keep us saved, that something won't come up that God didn't know about and completely thwart is ability to be faithful to His promises. Sorry, but I am not buying into your feeble, fleshly assumptions. I will stick to the Word of God which teaches that God is 100% omniscient. That's the truly Christian perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 3 hours ago, OakWood said: God is the standard for perfection. There is no other or higher standard, therefore whatever he does is perfect including changing his mind. If God operates in perfection, then there is no reason to change his mind. Changing his mind implies imperfection. It implies that God does things that don't work, that are less than perfect, and so he changes his mind to go down a better more perfect path. Perfection precludes a change of mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakWood Posted November 28, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 867 Topics Per Day: 0.24 Content Count: 7,331 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,860 Days Won: 31 Joined: 04/09/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/28/1964 Share Posted November 28, 2015 1 hour ago, shiloh357 said: If God operates in perfection, then there is no reason to change his mind. Changing his mind implies imperfection. It implies that God does things that don't work, that are less than perfect, and so he changes his mind to go down a better more perfect path. Perfection precludes a change of mind. I understand what you are saying.... I mean, I completely do and I have thought about this. But you do realise that it's a logical dilemma that we have here. If God changes his mind then he is less than perfect because his decisions were not right the first time, but if he doesn't change his mind then destiny is fixed, immutable and there is no point in anything that I or you do. There is no freedom and effectively there is no relationship with God because he is incapable of a relationship - we are nothing but words on his script. There is no feedback other than that which God has already pre-ordained...... we cannot have a relationship with God because we are incapable of influencing him in any way whatsoever. You have to understand what perfection really means. There is no such thing as perfection without a standard and God is the standard. Perfection is what God is and what comes from God. Whether God makes mistakes or not is irrelevant...... it is not for us to question them.... he puts them right anyway. He is always perfect because there is nothing that is higher than him. But if God is incapable of changing his mind then he is inferior to us and for God to be inferior to us is not possible. We are made in God's image. Have you ever asked yourself what that really means? Do we look like him? No of course not. Are we as clever as him? Well, definitely not. But in what way are we like him, and therefore in what way is he like us? God loves us and love to some extent or another it's a two-way relationship otherwise it is not love. It is impossible to have a two-way relationship with somebody or something that cannot respond - and even response requires a change even if it is only at the tiniest level. As you can probably guess.... I'm definitely not a Calvinist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SINNERSAVED Posted November 28, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 6 Topic Count: 150 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,195 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 2,409 Days Won: 14 Joined: 07/30/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 28, 2015 7 hours ago, shiloh357 said: Actually, Phil 2:5-11 makes the case that Jesus was limited (voluntarily and temporarily) in certain divine prerogatives while on earth. Jesus did not take His equality with God as something to be exploited to his own advantage according to Paul and he emptied himself of those prerogatives. He did not give up any attributes, but imposed upon himself a willingness to operate as a fully human person in complete reliance upon the Father. People forget that Jesus was modeling the Christian life. Jesus did not deal with Satan in His divinity, otherwise he could not have been tempted. Had he not been tempted, he could not have modeled for us how to handle it. Jesus dealt with temptation in his humanity, overcoming it with the Word of God and with the power of the Holy Spirit and that is exactly how He expects us to deal with temptation. Jesus prayed, as a man, even though He was God. Again, he was modeling prayer for us. Jesus, more than once, proclaimed that he was doing the works of His Father and that His words were the words of the Father. Jesus did not, according to him, operate apart from the constant direction of the Father. It is clear that Jesus, as a man, though still fully God, accepted and voluntarily took upon Himself the limitations of a man for the duration of His time on earth. Note that as God Jesus was, prior to this incarnation, omnipresent. Yet in a physical body, he was not omnipresent thus limited to one place in space and time. That does not mean Jesus was not fully God. None of the limitations he operated under, in any way, diminished his deity. Where does the Bible say that God had not fixed the future date of the return of Jesus? That is an assumption you are drawing. Show from the OT and from the Gospels that it is clear that God had no idea when the Second Coming would come. There are over 1,500 references to Jesus' second coming in the OT. 36 OT prophets speak of it. Please show from them that God had no idea, no fixed date for the return of Jesus. Who says the future is not fixed? Where is that supported in Scripture??? Actually, a future that is not fixed diminishes God entirely because God always operates in the fullness of time. God is not in the dark about the future. If God is in the dark about the future, then He is blind to any potential obstacle to the plan of salvation. If God is in the dark about the future, then God cannot guarantee salvation to anyone. We cannot trust that God will be able keep us saved, that something won't come up that God didn't know about and completely thwart is ability to be faithful to His promises. Sorry, but I am not buying into your feeble, fleshly assumptions. I will stick to the Word of God which teaches that God is 100% omniscient. That's the truly Christian perspective. point well made, I have to agree with you, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SINNERSAVED Posted November 28, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 6 Topic Count: 150 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,195 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 2,409 Days Won: 14 Joined: 07/30/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 28, 2015 5 hours ago, OakWood said: I understand what you are saying.... I mean, I completely do and I have thought about this. But you do realise that it's a logical dilemma that we have here. If God changes his mind then he is less than perfect because his decisions were not right the first time, but if he doesn't change his mind then destiny is fixed, immutable and there is no point in anything that I or you do. There is no freedom and effectively there is no relationship with God because he is incapable of a relationship - we are nothing but words on his script. There is no feedback other than that which God has already pre-ordained...... we cannot have a relationship with God because we are incapable of influencing him in any way whatsoever. You have to understand what perfection really means. There is no such thing as perfection without a standard and God is the standard. Perfection is what God is and what comes from God. Whether God makes mistakes or not is irrelevant...... it is not for us to question them.... he puts them right anyway. He is always perfect because there is nothing that is higher than him. But if God is incapable of changing his mind then he is inferior to us and for God to be inferior to us is not possible. We are made in God's image. Have you ever asked yourself what that really means? Do we look like him? No of course not. Are we as clever as him? Well, definitely not. But in what way are we like him, and therefore in what way is he like us? God loves us and love to some extent or another it's a two-way relationship otherwise it is not love. It is impossible to have a two-way relationship with somebody or something that cannot respond - and even response requires a change even if it is only at the tiniest level. As you can probably guess.... I'm definitely not a Calvinist! that was a awesome example, and I have to agree with that also, for what you said, God has changed his mind ,when he had given the people freedom and then they rebelled, and so it needs to be corrected, just like we need to be corrected or our kids, as a father to a son, I can see this ,and yet be perfect in a just and righteous move in correction at the needed time, this is very possible, thank you for the food for thought, and to look at it a different way , I do agree with both sides because you both are saying God is all knowing which he is , and if he was less then the God He is ,then who would be able to follow him in spirit and in truth ? BUT, God is awesome, and we still cannot understand the majesty and glory He has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken Posted November 28, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,379 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted November 28, 2015 5 hours ago, OakWood said: I understand what you are saying.... I mean, I completely do and I have thought about this. But you do realise that it's a logical dilemma that we have here. If God changes his mind then he is less than perfect because his decisions were not right the first time, but if he doesn't change his mind then destiny is fixed, immutable and there is no point in anything that I or you do. There is no freedom and effectively there is no relationship with God because he is incapable of a relationship - we are nothing but words on his script. There is no feedback other than that which God has already pre-ordained...... we cannot have a relationship with God because we are incapable of influencing him in any way whatsoever. You have to understand what perfection really means. There is no such thing as perfection without a standard and God is the standard. Perfection is what God is and what comes from God. Whether God makes mistakes or not is irrelevant...... it is not for us to question them.... he puts them right anyway. He is always perfect because there is nothing that is higher than him. But if God is incapable of changing his mind then he is inferior to us and for God to be inferior to us is not possible. We are made in God's image. Have you ever asked yourself what that really means? Do we look like him? No of course not. Are we as clever as him? Well, definitely not. But in what way are we like him, and therefore in what way is he like us? God loves us and love to some extent or another it's a two-way relationship otherwise it is not love. It is impossible to have a two-way relationship with somebody or something that cannot respond - and even response requires a change even if it is only at the tiniest level. As you can probably guess.... I'm definitely not a Calvinist! Hey brother ( me again, sorry ). It's a matter of destiny. That is the nature and partial definition of the word. The decisions we make are our own, but God knows ( not decide for us ) what they will be. You cannot apply human logic to divine understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken Posted November 28, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,379 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted November 28, 2015 35 minutes ago, SINNERSAVED said: BUT, God is awesome, and we still cannot understand the majesty and glory He has. Amen to that ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 5 hours ago, OakWood said: I understand what you are saying.... I mean, I completely do and I have thought about this. But you do realise that it's a logical dilemma that we have here. If God changes his mind then he is less than perfect because his decisions were not right the first time, but if he doesn't change his mind then destiny is fixed, immutable and there is no point in anything that I or you do. There is no freedom and effectively there is no relationship with God because he is incapable of a relationship - we are nothing but words on his script. There is no feedback other than that which God has already pre-ordained...... we cannot have a relationship with God because we are incapable of influencing him in any way whatsoever. You have to understand what perfection really means. There is no such thing as perfection without a standard and God is the standard. Perfection is what God is and what comes from God. Whether God makes mistakes or not is irrelevant...... it is not for us to question them.... he puts them right anyway. He is always perfect because there is nothing that is higher than him. But if God is incapable of changing his mind then he is inferior to us and for God to be inferior to us is not possible. We are made in God's image. Have you ever asked yourself what that really means? Do we look like him? No of course not. Are we as clever as him? Well, definitely not. But in what way are we like him, and therefore in what way is he like us? God loves us and love to some extent or another it's a two-way relationship otherwise it is not love. It is impossible to have a two-way relationship with somebody or something that cannot respond - and even response requires a change even if it is only at the tiniest level. As you can probably guess.... I'm definitely not a Calvinist! The fact that God doesn't change His mind does not mean that history is fixed. That history isn't fixed is the result of God not predetermining every event in history. I don't see the dilemma. If God changes his mind, it means that God isn't perfect. If God isn't perfect, he is subject to error and cannot be trusted. That is simply not the case and as Christians we can, based on Scripture rule that out. God is all knowing. If God is all knowing, he knows every possible outcome of every decision and is incapable of making a bad decision that he will later need rectify. So God already knows the beginning and ending of every life, of every decision that could be made. God knows all of that at once and is able process what appears to be an endless set of possibilities in his mind, which is infinitely superior to our own. To say that God could change his mind, denies one of the most important divine attributes he possesses. And if he is not all knowing, we can't really trust Him. God not being able to change his mind does not making him inferior, because God is all-knowing and that makes him superior and it means He has no reason to change his mind. Your argument appears to be, "I can't imagine God not changing his mind, so he must change his mind, because God cannot operate outside of what my mind has decided are the only possible ways for God to operate." God is not limited to the box we want to put Him in. We are made in His image, but we cannot push that further than what the Bible does. God has a number of what we call incommunicable attributes. These are attributes that God possesses, but which we do not share in common with Him. God is perfect, He is able to be everywhere at once. He is all powerful and He is all knowing. God is sinless and completely holy. God is eternal, lacking both a beginning and end. God is outside of time. He is not locked into linear time and he operates on a level of reality that transcends what we can even conceive of in our minds. While we share some attributes (mercy, forgiveness, love, hate, compassion, sadness, anger, etc.), there is much about God that we simply do not have in common though made in his image. I am not a Calvinist either, but neither do I think that an all-knowing God is imperfect enough to make mistakes that require a change of mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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