Last Daze Posted January 8, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 8, 2016 9 hours ago, MorningGlory said: Well, number two makes a strong case for Jerusalem. I am still undecided as to what I believe about this though. Btw, why do you call yourself 'unworthydude'? Nineveh is also called the great city. “Arise, go to Nineveh the great city and cry against it, for their wickedness has come up before Me.” Jonah 1:2 Probably should look a little deeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted January 9, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 9, 2016 1 hour ago, inchrist said: I don't see how Babylon is Jerusalem Rev 18: 21Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said: "With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, never to be found again. Zech 14:16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. If Jerusalem is Babylon; as you can see she is to be destroyed and never be found again...Yet Jerusalem exists? where is Jesus to rule from during the millennium? If Jerusalem being Babylon is never to be found again? Why are people worshipping Jesus in the Millennial in Jerusalem? Inchrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unworthydude Posted January 9, 2016 Group: Junior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 105 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 61 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/24/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 9, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, inchrist said: I don't see how Babylon is Jerusalem Rev 18: 21Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said: "With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, never to be found again. Zech 14:16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. If Jerusalem is Babylon; as you can see she is to be destroyed and never be found again...Yet Jerusalem exists? where is Jesus to rule from during the millennium? If Jerusalem being Babylon is never to be found again? Why are people worshipping Jesus in the Millennial in Jerusalem? Exactly. Earthly Jerusalem will be "desolated", a.k.a., destroyed... Never to be found again. Based on your argument, why is it necessary for God to bring with Him a "New Jerusalem" if the current one is fine? The eternal Jerusalem is not the earthly one but a heavenly one. Gal 4:25-26 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. (26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Rev_3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Rev_21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Heb_12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, Heb 11:15-16 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. (16) But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. There are two Jerusalems. One of them has a future the other does not. One is a bride and the other is a whore. This is clear all over the Old Testament. I know you don't "see" it but I pray God will show you as He opened my eyes. It's so clear that when you see it, it will open up so much of the prophets to you. I have been overwhelmed by His Spirit in this discovery. It truly is the truth. Read Hosea, Zachariah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc. with this perspective and you will know. The Bible is Israel-centric to God's plan. We Christians are a side show, grafted in to the tree. Rom 11:11-12 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. (12) Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? Edited January 9, 2016 by unworthydude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unworthydude Posted January 9, 2016 Group: Junior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 105 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 61 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/24/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 9, 2016 (edited) 18 hours ago, Last Daze said: Nineveh is also called the great city. “Arise, go to Nineveh the great city and cry against it, for their wickedness has come up before Me.” Jonah 1:2 Probably should look a little deeper. True, other cities were called great but not in the context of Revelation. Why go to the book of Jonah to interpret Revelation? Why should we look deeper when John clearly says that Jerusalem is called the great city. Why rule out Jerusalem as a great city in the book of Revelation when it clearly fits. If you look up the words "great city", Jerusalem is the only city called by that term by John. What's interesting too is that Jerusalem is also called Sodom and Egypt metaphorically. Then after that we see this great city being called Babylon. It's pretty clear if you understand the long awaited prophecies of the Old Testament Rev_11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Rev_11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. Rev_14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Rev_16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. Rev_17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Rev_18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. Rev_18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! Rev_18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! Rev_18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. Rev_18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. Rev_21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Edited January 9, 2016 by unworthydude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unworthydude Posted January 9, 2016 Group: Junior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 105 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 61 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/24/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 9, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, inchrist said: New Jerusalem descends down after the millennium The Bible describes cities anthropomorphically. When speaking about a city God uses language as if it is a person. The thing to keep in mind is that He also describes buildings, some literal and some metaphorical. The Jerusalem in bondage to sin, a whore and unfaithful is the city of people to be destroyed by the nations as a judgment. Current Jerusalem is not just a location. When Jesus comes back He restores a new faithful people who make up a new city. The city is His people and not just literal bricks and temple. Look how Jesus talks to "Jerusalem" the city. Luk_13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! New Jerusalem is even called a bride. Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Rev 21:9-10 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, "Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb." (10) And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, The church is a spiritual house made of living stones and a cornerstone, Christ. 1Pe 2:5-6 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. (6) For it stands in Scripture: "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame." When Jesus comes back, old Jerusalem will already be destroyed and what He recreates will be a new city of heavenly people in a new earthly Israel with a city again called Jerusalem. It will be a camp and a beloved place where His people rule until the heavens and earth pass away entirely and the heavenly Jerusalem becomes our eternal home and city. Rev 20:9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, If there is no heaven or earth, how does the New Jerusalem come down? Look what happens to current Jerusalem...It suffers a "decree of utter destruction". Zec 14:8-11 On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea. It shall continue in summer as in winter. (9) And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one. (10) The whole land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. But Jerusalem shall remain aloft on its site from the Gate of Benjamin to the place of the former gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's winepresses. (11) And it shall be inhabited, for there shall never again be a decree of utter destruction. Jerusalem shall dwell in security. Edited January 9, 2016 by unworthydude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted January 9, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 9, 2016 3 hours ago, unworthydude said: True, other cities were called great but not in the context of Revelation. Why go to the book of Jonah to interpret Revelation? Why should we look deeper when John clearly says that Jerusalem is called the great city. Why rule out Jerusalem as a great city in the book of Revelation when it clearly fits. If you look up the words "great city", Jerusalem is the only city called by that term by John. What's interesting too is that Jerusalem is also called Sodom and Egypt metaphorically. Then after that we see this great city being called Babylon. It's pretty clear if you understand the long awaited prophecies of the Old Testament Rev_11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Rev_11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. Rev_14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Rev_16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. Rev_17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Rev_18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. Rev_18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! Rev_18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! Rev_18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. Rev_18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. Rev_21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, How can the blood of all who have been slain, let's start with Abel, be found in Jerusalem? As you quoted earlier: And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.” Revelation 18:24 Unless you can explain how the blood of Abel is found in Jerusalem then yes, you need to look deeper, perhaps behind the scenes at the source. Babylon is the kingdom of Satan, the destroying mountain, that influences the human race in rebellion and ungodliness. Every once in a while a city epitomizes that and is allegorically referred to as "Babylon". Think of it like magma under the earth's crust that wells up and produces a volcano that spews magma everywhere. The volcano would be "Babylon" and the magma, Satan's influence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted January 9, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 9, 2016 6 hours ago, Last Daze said: How can the blood of all who have been slain, let's start with Abel, be found in Jerusalem? As you quoted earlier: And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.” Revelation 18:24 Unless you can explain how the blood of Abel is found in Jerusalem then yes, you need to look deeper, perhaps behind the scenes at the source. Babylon is the kingdom of Satan, the destroying mountain, that influences the human race in rebellion and ungodliness. Every once in a while a city epitomizes that and is allegorically referred to as "Babylon". Think of it like magma under the earth's crust that wells up and produces a volcano that spews magma everywhere. The volcano would be "Babylon" and the magma, Satan's influence. Jesus' own words: Matthew 23 34"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36"Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Lament over Jerusalem 37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. Revelation 18:24In her was found the blood of prophets and of God's holy people, of all who have been slaughtered on the earth." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unworthydude Posted January 9, 2016 Group: Junior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 105 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 61 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/24/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 9, 2016 (edited) 13 hours ago, inchrist said: That's not what scripture states Isaiah 31:4-5 (KJV) 4 For thus hath the Lord spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for the noise of them: so shall the Lord of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof. 5 As birds flying, so will the Lord of hosts defend Jerusalem ; defending also he will deliver it; and passing over he will preserve it. Zechariah 14:1-12 (KJV) 1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one. 10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. 11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. 12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. Again we see the Jesus defending Jerusalem or Zion and this would be the prophesied time that the children of Israel would be saying, “Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord” His defending it does not mean that it was not "taken" or "destroyed". You can't leave those passages out. Biblical language must be understood here. Jerusalem is judged by God but repents when Christ protects them. The old unfaithful Jerusalem is purged and the new believers of their Messiah are defended. Remember, the 70 weeks is a time of judgment, leading up to Jerusalem being taken or desolated. The siege of Jerusalem by all nations is pretty devastating unless you willing to say it's not. The destruction language is to be kept in mind as well as the defense of Jerusalem and it's people. God has always preserved for Himself a remnant. Rom 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. Isa 37:31-32 And the surviving remnant of the house of Judah shall again take root downward and bear fruit upward. (32) For out of Jerusalem shall go a remnant, and out of Mount Zion a band of survivors. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this. Zec 12:6-11 "On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a blazing pot in the midst of wood, like a flaming torch among sheaves. And they shall devour to the right and to the left all the surrounding peoples, while Jerusalem shall again be inhabited in its place, in Jerusalem. (7) "And the LORD will give salvation to the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem may not surpass that of Judah. (8) On that day the LORD will protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them on that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the angel of the LORD, going before them. (9) And on that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. (10) "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn. (11) On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. Zechariah 12:6-14 (KJV) 6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 7 The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them. 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. As you can see scriptures showing Jerusalem being defended by Jesus and safely inhabited again in her own place. Absolutely!! God is going to save His people. But remember this: 1Pe_4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? Zec 14:2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and Luk_21:23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. Dan_8:19 He said, "Behold, I will make known to you what shall be at the latter end of the indignation, for it refers to the appointed time of the end. Dan_11:36 "And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done. Rev 17:16-17 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, (17) for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. Edited January 10, 2016 by unworthydude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted January 9, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 9, 2016 3 hours ago, thereselittleflower said: Jesus' own words: Matthew 23 34"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36"Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Lament over Jerusalem 37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. Revelation 18:24In her was found the blood of prophets and of God's holy people, of all who have been slaughtered on the earth." That doesn't really explain how the blood of Abel was found in Jerusalem. And it doesn't address anyone outside of the righteous. Babylon contains the blood of all who have been slaughtered, not just the righteous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted January 10, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 10, 2016 1 hour ago, Last Daze said: That doesn't really explain how the blood of Abel was found in Jerusalem. And it doesn't address anyone outside of the righteous. Babylon contains the blood of all who have been slaughtered, not just the righteous. Does God need to explain how? It is Jerusalem Jesus lamented over in connection with the words that all the righteous blood of the world would be found in her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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