Rapture

[SINNERSAVED]

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I agree.  It does seem ludicrous to give instructions to people who won't need them.   The church is clearly present during the great tribulation.

• After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands.....Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?”  I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.  Revelation 7:9,13-14

If the rapture happens before the great tribulation, where does this great multitude beyond number come from?  There is zero biblical support anywhere for some kind of "great revival".  That idea, along with "tribulation saints" was conjured out of necessity in an attempt to make the pre-trib seem plausible.  The truth is that just the opposite is true.  Those days will be deceptive and lead to apostasy, not very fertile ground for a "great revival".

• And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.  Matthew 24:4-5
• Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.  2 Thessalonians 2:8-10

The church will in no way be a restraint to the man of sin.

• It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.  Revelation 13:7
• He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.  Daniel 7:25

How can those who have been given into his hand, and who he will overcome, be a restraint to him?  That makes no sense, especially when putting forth the "great revival" argument at the same time.

Let me see if I got this right, the "pre-trib saints / Holy Spirit" make up the "A" team which can restrain evil / Satan but the great revival "multitude beyond number tribulation saints / Holy Spirit" make up the "B" team and they aren't able to?  How does anyone take the pre-trib notion seriously?

Remember, God is not going to fulfill prophecy by our consensus.  If you truly want to know, go with what the Bible plainly says, not what you want it to say.

I am in total agreement with you , and that's what I was looking for, thank you brother, that was AWESOME !

[SINNERSAVED]

1 hour ago, Rick_Parker said:

I don't participate in debates about the Rapture. Nor whom the "Restrainer" is. I simply supply supporting scriptures, in context. Everyone can therefore come to their own conclusions.

So who do you say is the restrainer ? 

for I will go with Michael the arch angel, this is my opinion

,because at the end, Michael and his angels go to war ,with satan and his angels and Michael wins,

and He defeats the dragon, so that's why I say it is Him,  do you still want scripture on this ? and I would not call this a debate,

but input of what we all think is the truth ,so there is no harm in saying what we think also, or we would all be in a box.

i am open to here who you may think it is ? nothing wrong with opinions, or thoughts or beliefs, no one here to judge anyone.

[Guest]

I'm not worried about being judged by you or anyone else. I believe that Scripture teaches that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit. This is why:

“Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed” (2 Thes 2:5-8).

It seems like every time I post anything having to do with the restrainer, I get a bunch of questions about who or what the restrainer is, or as the NIV translates it “the one who now holds it (the secret power of lawlessness) back”. The word “restrainer” is a translation of the Greek word katecho (ka-te’-kho) which can also mean “to hold back” or “hinder”.

Down through the years there have been several different views on the identity of the restrainer.  Some of the most popular have been the State of Israel, the Roman Empire, the general principle of law and government, the Archangel Michael, and the Holy Spirit.

The general idea of 2 Thes. 2:5-8 is that some force or being is preventing the full power of lawlessness from being released upon the Earth and will continue to do so until he is taken out of the way. From the context we know that this “power of lawlessness” will ultimately reside in the anti-Christ, called the man of lawlessness in 2 Thes. 2:3, 8.

When speaking about the power holding the anti-Christ back in verse 6, the Greek word Paul used is in the neuter gender. But in verse 7 he used personal pronouns of the masculine gender to describe the one exercising the power. By this we conclude that whoever is restraining the appearance of the anti-Christ has to be a living entity, not a thing.  And he has to be very powerful since according to verse 9 the anti-Christ’s appearance is a work of Satan.

Suddenly this living entity will be taken out of the place where the anti-Christ is trying to appear (Planet Earth), freeing him to make his appearance.  And from that point on, the power of the anti-Christ will be unrestrained, allowing him to do Satan’s worst.

Some question whether the word “taken” in the phrase “taken out of the way” is an accurate translation of the Greek word “ginomai”. They correctly claim that the most common translation of ginomai in the Bible is “to be, or become”.  But you have to put the word in the context of 2 Thes. 2:7 to understand where the restrainer is “to be”.  The Greek words that follow ginomai are “ek”, which means “out of” and implies both time and place, and “mesos” which means “middle, or midst”.

Put the whole thought together and you see the restrainer has “to be out of the midst” of the time and place he’s currently in before the lawless one can be revealed.  400 years ago the King James translators decided that the English phrase “taken out of the way”  while not a literal translation, best conveyed Paul’s intent.  Most modern translations agree.

I think everyone wishes that Paul had simply disclosed who the restrainer is instead of just describing what He is doing. But notice what he did say. "Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time" (2 Thes. 2:6).

He had obviously identified at least the restraining power, if not the restrainer himself, in a prior teaching. Otherwise he couldn’t have expected them to know about it/him. And if he knew he was writing to the entire Church (as I believe) and not just 1st Century Thessalonians, then we would expect to find the answer somewhere else in his letters to us. So let’s review our list of popular candidates; the State of Israel, the Roman Empire, the general principle of law and government, the Archangel Michael, and the Holy Spirit, and see if any of them qualify.

The State of Israel: Paul knew Israel was in its last days, and would be absent for most of the Church Age. If he didn’t learn it from his time with the Lord in Arabia (Galatians 1:11-24) he certainly knew it from his attendance at the council in Jerusalem. There, James disclosed that Israel was being set aside until the Lord took from among the Gentiles a people for Himself (Acts 15:13-18). And Jesus said that when the anti-Christ makes his appearance many in Israel will accept him, thinking he’s the Messiah (Isaiah 28:15, John 5:43). Besides, Israel is a nation, not a being. For these reasons I would disqualify Israel as a candidate.

The Roman Empire: The Roman Empire is the candidate preferred by those who believe all end times prophecies were fulfilled by 70 AD. This is interesting to me because their candidate for the anti-Christ is the Roman Emperor Nero. So rather than restraining the man of lawlessness, the Roman Empire was responsible for bringing their anti-Christ to power, and rather than being taken out of the way so Nero could be revealed, they made him their leader. Many who believe in the future fulfillment of end times prophecies see this chain of events repeating itself with a revived Roman Empire and the real anti-Christ. Also, like Israel the Roman Empire was a political entity, not a being.

Law and Government: The general principle of law and government has been a restrainer of sorts by establishing rules for acceptable behavior among people. This is especially true in cases where legal systems have been based on Judeo-Christian principles. But as we are increasingly coming to realize, a system of law and government is powerless unless the subjects of the system are voluntarily obedient. And once again we don’t use masculine personal pronouns in reference to a system.

The Archangel Michael: That brings us to the Archangel Michael. In the Book of Daniel, Michael is seen as Israel’s protector (Daniel 10:21, 12:1). But Paul never spoke of him at all, and in the entire New Testament he’s only mentioned twice, once when he was disputing with Satan for the body of Moses (Jude 1:9), and once in his expulsion of Satan from Heaven just before the beginning of the Great Tribulation (Rev. 12:7-9).

According to Daniel 12:1 Michael will arise to protect the believing remnant of Israel at the same time. That means having just expelled Satan from heaven, Michael would have to rush to defend the remnant of Israel against him as Satan unleashes his full fury against God’s people on Earth (Rev. 12:13-17).

So here are the major problems I have seeing Michael as the restrainer. First, how could Paul have expected us to know he was referring to Michael as the restrainer if in all his writings he never once mentioned Michael in any context at all? If Paul had told the Thessalonians that Michael is the restrainer would he have failed to mention it in any of his letters? I don’t think so. And second, how could Michael stand aside to permit Satan’s power to be unleashed without restraint while at the same time standing up to protect Israel from the very thing he has just enabled Satan to let loose upon them. It doesn’t make sense to me.

The Holy Spirit: That leaves the Holy Spirit Himself and there happens to be Biblical precedent for both His restraining influence and His abrupt withdrawal before a worldwide judgment. In support of His restraining influence, John 16:8 has the Lord saying the role of the Holy Spirit is to convict the world of guilt in regard to sin, and righteousness, and judgment. Notice the Lord didn’t say He would convict only believers, but the world, believers or not. The Greek word John used there is “kosmos”, which means the whole world.

Just as everyone intuitively knows there’s a God (Romans 1:18-20), everyone intuitively knows right from wrong. Paul said even those who don’t have the law will do things the law requires by nature because the requirements of the law are written on our hearts, and our consciences will accuse or defend our actions accordingly (Romans 2:14-15). I believe the “guilty conscience” that even unbelievers experience when they do wrong is the Holy Spirit convicting them in regard to sin, righteousness, and judgment. Throughout the Church Age this conviction has been a major restraining force against evil in the world.

In 1 Tim. 4:1-2 Paul wrote, “The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.” (In Paul’s time applying a fire-heated piece of metal to a wound was an accepted way to help stop the bleeding and close the wound. It’s called cauterization, an extremely painful process that left a hideous scar.)

This tells us the current trend of making good appear to be evil and vice versa is a sign that the end is near. Hypocritical liars from inside and outside the church have been causing a gigantic paradigm shift in the world. They intuitively know the things they are trying to teach us are wrong and the conviction of the Holy Spirit has wounded their consciences. By repeatedly suppressing the guilt they feel they’ve effectively “cauterized” their consciences to close the wound. This has left their consciences hideously scarred, but allows them to continue spreading their lies without feeling the guilt.

In the process they’ve also destroyed their powers of discernment which means that each succeeding lie is easier to accept and repeat than the one before it.  We’ve seen the proof of this as things our parents’ generation would have abhorred are now being celebrated in ours.

As for the Holy Spirit being temporarily taken out of the way, Genesis 6:1-3 tells of the time before the Great Flood when certain angels rebelled against God, exchanged their angelic form for human form and began having children with human women. Genesis 6:4 calls these children the Nephilim. They apparently had incredible skills and abilities and eventually led the whole world astray. Before long the entire creation had been irreparably corrupted.

Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years” (Genesis 6:3)

Noah and his family had not been genetically corrupted by this hybrid invasion. The Lord commissioned him and his sons to build an ark to preserve themselves, their wives, and selected animals and 120 years after His pronouncement He destroyed the whole world in the Great Flood.

The Hebrew word translated “contend” in Genesis 6:3 means “to act as a judge”. In other words the role of the Holy Spirit in pre-flood times was to convict the world of guilt in regard to sin, and righteousness, and judgment just like He’s doing in our time (John 16:8). And before the flood God said there would come a time when His Spirit would step aside and allow a time of judgment to proceed, just like Paul said the restrainer would do at the end of the age.

So The Holy Spirit has been holding back the secret power of lawlessness and will continue to do so until He is taken out of the way. All things considered, I believe the Bible makes a compelling case in support of the Holy Spirit being the restrainer Paul spoke of in 2nd Thessalonians.

That is my opinion, take it or leave it. But, I won't debate about it. It is up to each individual to make up their own mind as to whether they want to believe Scripture, in context, as GOD would lead, or not.

[SINNERSAVED]

22 hours ago, bopeep1909 said:

The rapture of the Church and the second coming are two separate events

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).
 

http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html

where do you get that the rapture is before the tribulation? if Jesus said you will have tribulation, and you will be killed for his name sake? in the book of matthew, he also states do not be deceived when they say the lord is here or there, for all will see his coming , and at the last trumpet  at the second coming, before his wrath is poured out,

the angels are holding the four winds to gather  his people, so it is at the same time and at the same day, that this happens, the church is not mentioned  at all  in revelation chapter three and  on, but its because there is no church, we are now individuals and the true followers only go, those filled with the holy spirit , there will be people from your church that will not make it, and left ,for they did not have or repented to receive salvation,

we are not exempt from the tribulation to come, if they say rapture is to get out and then tribulation comes, that is a dangerous assumption and teaching, for this ,

takes away your preparedness to face and to be ready if you do go through tribulation, and this is what satan wants you to believe, all the scripture you show supporting the pre rapture, is actually the supporting scriptures of  the gathering when Jesus comes at his second return, so scripture is correct , but the timing is post tribulation not prior too.

and if you set it that way the scriptures flow really easy and its makes more sense,

if you take it as before tribulation, then half of revelation will not come together in  order, and then there is confusion and taking scripture out of context,

i was raised in a church, that believed this rapture before tribulation i went with it for over thirty years, but when reading the bible and having scripture interpret scripture, and match the events side by side, .hands down , the gathering is at the end of tribulation , as when Jesus states after the tribulation he comes, this is factual and biblical

i am only saying this in love Bo Peep. God loves you , and all of us and we want to be there for each other ,of one truth and one mind , and one God.

[SINNERSAVED]

19 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

pearls?  wood hay stubble?  gems ? gold? silver ? test test test 

5 results

 

1. WHO OR WHAT IS 'TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY' 2 Thessalonians 2:7?

   www.logosapostolic.org/bible.../RP355-9-2Thessalonians2v7.htm - Cached - Similar

   This bible study proves that neither the church nor the Holy Spirit are taken out of
   ... #9.023 Conclusion - Nothing is taken out of the way in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 ...
   the restrainer is the Holy Spirit working through the church, and that this scripture
   ... Tribulation judgment, the restraining hand of the Holy Spirit shall be removed ...

2. 6 Pre-Tribulational Arguments Refuted | No Pre-Trib

   nopretrib.com/6-pre-tribulational-arguments-refuted/ - Cached - Similar

   Feb 21, 2014 ... And/or biblical support for a pre-tribulation rapture? ..... The Restrainer ......
   revelation of the Man of Sin, since nothing is “taken out of the way.”

3. Book Review: End Times Passover: Etymological Challenges to ...

   www.godandscience.org/doctrine/end_times_passover.html - Cached

   May 10, 2007 ... Both books refute the prevalent pre-tribulation rapture scenario, ... To his credit,
   Mr. Ortiz quotes long passages of scripture and commentaries, so that readers
   know that nothing is taken out-of-context. ... The restrainer.

4. All comments on Chuck Missler on Harpazo: the Restrainer, the Day ...

   https://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=bqnHGFgyNx0... - Cached

   After the tribulation when He returns to reign, there is a completely different
   description. .... the tribulation had begun and the holy Spirit is not taken out this is
   a false teaching is easily rebuked with scripture .... Because NOTHING is taken
   away.

5. His By Grace Christian Bible Study Forum - View topic - 2 ...

   biblestudy.bb3host.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8683

   There are some who say that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit working through the
   ... This is one of the strongest arguments by the pre-tribulation teachers, ...
   Conclusion - Nothing is taken out of the way in 2 Thessalonians 2:7

    

 

 

i am open to here who you may think it is ? nothing wrong with opinions, or thoughts or beliefs, no one here to judge anyone.

  0

•  

 

 

that was awesome , I like that., i totally understand that point you made, and you are correct nothing is taken out, true !!.,

 but it is when michael stands up , something happens, i think this is still what is holding back the full impact of satan., even though all stays the same on earth.

[SINNERSAVED]

25 minutes ago, Rick_Parker said:

I'm not worried about being judged by you or anyone else. I believe that Scripture teaches that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit. This is why:

“Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed” (2 Thes 2:5-8).

It seems like every time I post anything having to do with the restrainer, I get a bunch of questions about who or what the restrainer is, or as the NIV translates it “the one who now holds it (the secret power of lawlessness) back”. The word “restrainer” is a translation of the Greek word katecho (ka-te’-kho) which can also mean “to hold back” or “hinder”.

Down through the years there have been several different views on the identity of the restrainer.  Some of the most popular have been the State of Israel, the Roman Empire, the general principle of law and government, the Archangel Michael, and the Holy Spirit.

The general idea of 2 Thes. 2:5-8 is that some force or being is preventing the full power of lawlessness from being released upon the Earth and will continue to do so until he is taken out of the way. From the context we know that this “power of lawlessness” will ultimately reside in the anti-Christ, called the man of lawlessness in 2 Thes. 2:3, 8.

When speaking about the power holding the anti-Christ back in verse 6, the Greek word Paul used is in the neuter gender. But in verse 7 he used personal pronouns of the masculine gender to describe the one exercising the power. By this we conclude that whoever is restraining the appearance of the anti-Christ has to be a living entity, not a thing.  And he has to be very powerful since according to verse 9 the anti-Christ’s appearance is a work of Satan.

Suddenly this living entity will be taken out of the place where the anti-Christ is trying to appear (Planet Earth), freeing him to make his appearance.  And from that point on, the power of the anti-Christ will be unrestrained, allowing him to do Satan’s worst.

Some question whether the word “taken” in the phrase “taken out of the way” is an accurate translation of the Greek word “ginomai”. They correctly claim that the most common translation of ginomai in the Bible is “to be, or become”.  But you have to put the word in the context of 2 Thes. 2:7 to understand where the restrainer is “to be”.  The Greek words that follow ginomai are “ek”, which means “out of” and implies both time and place, and “mesos” which means “middle, or midst”.

Put the whole thought together and you see the restrainer has “to be out of the midst” of the time and place he’s currently in before the lawless one can be revealed.  400 years ago the King James translators decided that the English phrase “taken out of the way”  while not a literal translation, best conveyed Paul’s intent.  Most modern translations agree.

I think everyone wishes that Paul had simply disclosed who the restrainer is instead of just describing what He is doing. But notice what he did say. "Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time" (2 Thes. 2:6).

He had obviously identified at least the restraining power, if not the restrainer himself, in a prior teaching. Otherwise he couldn’t have expected them to know about it/him. And if he knew he was writing to the entire Church (as I believe) and not just 1st Century Thessalonians, then we would expect to find the answer somewhere else in his letters to us. So let’s review our list of popular candidates; the State of Israel, the Roman Empire, the general principle of law and government, the Archangel Michael, and the Holy Spirit, and see if any of them qualify.

The State of Israel: Paul knew Israel was in its last days, and would be absent for most of the Church Age. If he didn’t learn it from his time with the Lord in Arabia (Galatians 1:11-24) he certainly knew it from his attendance at the council in Jerusalem. There, James disclosed that Israel was being set aside until the Lord took from among the Gentiles a people for Himself (Acts 15:13-18). And Jesus said that when the anti-Christ makes his appearance many in Israel will accept him, thinking he’s the Messiah (Isaiah 28:15, John 5:43). Besides, Israel is a nation, not a being. For these reasons I would disqualify Israel as a candidate.

The Roman Empire: The Roman Empire is the candidate preferred by those who believe all end times prophecies were fulfilled by 70 AD. This is interesting to me because their candidate for the anti-Christ is the Roman Emperor Nero. So rather than restraining the man of lawlessness, the Roman Empire was responsible for bringing their anti-Christ to power, and rather than being taken out of the way so Nero could be revealed, they made him their leader. Many who believe in the future fulfillment of end times prophecies see this chain of events repeating itself with a revived Roman Empire and the real anti-Christ. Also, like Israel the Roman Empire was a political entity, not a being.

Law and Government: The general principle of law and government has been a restrainer of sorts by establishing rules for acceptable behavior among people. This is especially true in cases where legal systems have been based on Judeo-Christian principles. But as we are increasingly coming to realize, a system of law and government is powerless unless the subjects of the system are voluntarily obedient. And once again we don’t use masculine personal pronouns in reference to a system.

The Archangel Michael: That brings us to the Archangel Michael. In the Book of Daniel, Michael is seen as Israel’s protector (Daniel 10:21, 12:1). But Paul never spoke of him at all, and in the entire New Testament he’s only mentioned twice, once when he was disputing with Satan for the body of Moses (Jude 1:9), and once in his expulsion of Satan from Heaven just before the beginning of the Great Tribulation (Rev. 12:7-9).

According to Daniel 12:1 Michael will arise to protect the believing remnant of Israel at the same time. That means having just expelled Satan from heaven, Michael would have to rush to defend the remnant of Israel against him as Satan unleashes his full fury against God’s people on Earth (Rev. 12:13-17).

So here are the major problems I have seeing Michael as the restrainer. First, how could Paul have expected us to know he was referring to Michael as the restrainer if in all his writings he never once mentioned Michael in any context at all? If Paul had told the Thessalonians that Michael is the restrainer would he have failed to mention it in any of his letters? I don’t think so. And second, how could Michael stand aside to permit Satan’s power to be unleashed without restraint while at the same time standing up to protect Israel from the very thing he has just enabled Satan to let loose upon them. It doesn’t make sense to me.

The Holy Spirit: That leaves the Holy Spirit Himself and there happens to be Biblical precedent for both His restraining influence and His abrupt withdrawal before a worldwide judgment. In support of His restraining influence, John 16:8 has the Lord saying the role of the Holy Spirit is to convict the world of guilt in regard to sin, and righteousness, and judgment. Notice the Lord didn’t say He would convict only believers, but the world, believers or not. The Greek word John used there is “kosmos”, which means the whole world.

Just as everyone intuitively knows there’s a God (Romans 1:18-20), everyone intuitively knows right from wrong. Paul said even those who don’t have the law will do things the law requires by nature because the requirements of the law are written on our hearts, and our consciences will accuse or defend our actions accordingly (Romans 2:14-15). I believe the “guilty conscience” that even unbelievers experience when they do wrong is the Holy Spirit convicting them in regard to sin, righteousness, and judgment. Throughout the Church Age this conviction has been a major restraining force against evil in the world.

In 1 Tim. 4:1-2 Paul wrote, “The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.” (In Paul’s time applying a fire-heated piece of metal to a wound was an accepted way to help stop the bleeding and close the wound. It’s called cauterization, an extremely painful process that left a hideous scar.)

This tells us the current trend of making good appear to be evil and vice versa is a sign that the end is near. Hypocritical liars from inside and outside the church have been causing a gigantic paradigm shift in the world. They intuitively know the things they are trying to teach us are wrong and the conviction of the Holy Spirit has wounded their consciences. By repeatedly suppressing the guilt they feel they’ve effectively “cauterized” their consciences to close the wound. This has left their consciences hideously scarred, but allows them to continue spreading their lies without feeling the guilt.

In the process they’ve also destroyed their powers of discernment which means that each succeeding lie is easier to accept and repeat than the one before it.  We’ve seen the proof of this as things our parents’ generation would have abhorred are now being celebrated in ours.

As for the Holy Spirit being temporarily taken out of the way, Genesis 6:1-3 tells of the time before the Great Flood when certain angels rebelled against God, exchanged their angelic form for human form and began having children with human women. Genesis 6:4 calls these children the Nephilim. They apparently had incredible skills and abilities and eventually led the whole world astray. Before long the entire creation had been irreparably corrupted.

Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years” (Genesis 6:3)

Noah and his family had not been genetically corrupted by this hybrid invasion. The Lord commissioned him and his sons to build an ark to preserve themselves, their wives, and selected animals and 120 years after His pronouncement He destroyed the whole world in the Great Flood.

The Hebrew word translated “contend” in Genesis 6:3 means “to act as a judge”. In other words the role of the Holy Spirit in pre-flood times was to convict the world of guilt in regard to sin, and righteousness, and judgment just like He’s doing in our time (John 16:8). And before the flood God said there would come a time when His Spirit would step aside and allow a time of judgment to proceed, just like Paul said the restrainer would do at the end of the age.

So The Holy Spirit has been holding back the secret power of lawlessness and will continue to do so until He is taken out of the way. All things considered, I believe the Bible makes a compelling case in support of the Holy Spirit being the restrainer Paul spoke of in 2nd Thessalonians.

That is my opinion, take it or leave it. But, I won't debate about it. It is up to each individual to make up their own mind as to whether they want to believe Scripture, in context, as GOD would lead, or not.

hello Rick Parker, thank you for your honest assessment on your view, and i see what you are saying, and yes i am not here to judge, or to debate, i am only trying to get the answers to the scriptures, and to understand for my self, and no one else, that was a lot to read, but , i do appreciate your side,

so not debating, i want to say, that why i said michael the arch angel is because, there are spirits and principles of darkness and powers at work,

and God has his angels and spirits of light, and his holy powers at work. to subdue and over come the evil and the demonic presence of the lawless one,

but God is a God of truth, and He is a just God, and if there be a time, that He says He will allow the evil one for a time period of 42 months to overcome the saints,

then He is allowing satan , to do what is stated by Gods word and scripture, for God does not go back on his word, and there fore we trust and have faith in our God.

so God allows this to happen, and it will be for the  testing of the saints and whosoever believe in God and puts there trust in God, whoever is left to suffer this, it is Gods will that it be done, for He controls all things

, most people will not really surrender them selves ,unless faced with no other way out, but to make a choice that they know ,have to be made, in acceptance ,or rejection of God, others will wilfully follow with out pressure ,

you have heard the when you squeeze good grapes, you get the best wine,  I.E we are like grapes, and for us to truly know God ,and really call upon his name , we may need to be under a certain amount of pressure, to make the decision that you will need to be accountable for,

so getting back to God is in complete control , and  i believe his angels are at work holding back until ,the appointed time for each event of Gods ,will be fulfilled, and that even means that if we are to suffer ,

Jesus, told us to stay focus on Him until the end , for He that endures until the end shall be saved, look at the  spirit telling the seven churches from the start what is acceptable and what is not, in the beginning of revelation.

so it cannot be the holy spirit , and this is my thought and my own opinion, for the holy spirit dwells with in us greater is He that is in you, then is in the world

so we have the holy spirit with us no matter what, and the spirit will speak the words it needs to say when the time comes, through us the spirit will know what to say,

there is scripture through all this,,

the big danger !! if the rapture don't happen,, is the belief , that we get out of here free pass, of the tribulation, and when they find out the ones that were deceived, they will hate God for they believed a lie. and think God has abandon them,

so you see, we need to be about Jesus , and its all about Jesus, and our working out our salvation with God,

its not about what anyone, who knows more then the other, it is about the loving Savior , and we giving our selves , as sacrifice to HIm , this is our rightful worship,

we need to be about Gods will , and be used as He wishes, not what we want and what we are not going to do , for we must deny our selves, and stop following the world

for many , many go through the wide and broad way, that leads to destruction and death, and only a few go through the straight and narrow. blessings brother,

[Last Daze]

3 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Last Daze

It is the Holy Spirit who seals us, He indwells us. 1 Cor 6:11 - But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.  This is the three fold ministry of the H.S. We do not have a seal of God on our forehead as in Rev 9:4.

This great multitude which comes out of the great Tribulation are all flesh and blood.  (see Zech 8:23)  Also look closely at this multitude which comes out of the Great Tribulation, they had to wash their robes.  These also are the one's who will be ruled with a rod of iron by Christ.

The Holy Spirit has done the work for us as those in Christ.  We need to wash nothing.

I would say those given into his hand in Rev 13 as tribulation Saints will be (Mormons, J.W.'s and others which we may consider as "Christian Cults")  They failed at their first attempt to reach Christ, they may get a second chance, but it cost them dearly.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Yes, we were washed per the above verse.  Our robes, however, are our righteous acts, a distinct difference.  They are the result of our faith.

• It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.  Revelation 19:8
• I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.  Revelation 7:14
• And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.  Revelation 12:11

Those who came out of the great tribulation washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb.  They, like the Lamb, overcame the world by remaining true to God, even unto death.  It's not that they "had to" wash their robes, they "did" wash their robes by their righteous faithfulness.

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, SINNERSAVED said:

the big danger !! if the rapture don't happen,, is the belief , that we get out of here free pass, of the tribulation, and when they find out the ones that were deceived, they will hate God for they believed a lie. and think God has abandon them,

I see this as an important issue as well.  People tend to only prepare for what they expect to encounter.  It's just common sense and human nature.

Seeing pre-trib as the only possibility is dangerous for obvious reasons.  I certainly hope that those who push pre-trib don't do so to the exclusion of its potential failure.  That would be irresponsible.

Five were wise.  Five were foolish.  The wise were better prepared.

[WilliamL]

Last Daze beat me to it again. (now 2nd post back)

But as always, I gotta add something.

The whole period of Israel's sudden flight out of Egypt on Passover night, after Egypt's holy places had been defiled by their dead [= their abomination of desolation], was a type and shadow of the Church's latter day flight of Matt. 24:16 and Rev. 12:6, right after they see the AD in the Holy Place.

The whole period of Israel's trials in the wilderness up to their coming to Mount Sinai corresponds to great tribulation/trial of the Church, likewise in the wilderness.

YHWH's descent upon Mount Sinai in clouds, amidst quake and fire and thick darkness, all were types of Christ's coming in the clouds immediately following the great similar natural-world cataclysms of the 6th Seal: Matt. 24:29-30, Rev. 6:12f.

YHWH then called the elect of his people up onto the mountain into his Presence, just as Jesus will call his people up unto heavenly Mount Zion. Paul explicitly states this parallel in Heb. 12:18-28.

Now to the point: just days before YHWH descended upon Mount Sinai, "the people...washed their clothes." The fulfillment of this type is that which is reported in Rev. 7:14 : "These...washed their robes." The former was a type and shadow of the latter, and Last Daze has explained the latter well.

[WilliamL]

Regarding the identity of the one katechon/holding fast or restraining, there are a couple of arguments that I think have been missed. If Paul meant the Holy Spirit or Michael, there should have been absolutely no reason why he wouldn't have merely said so, since he was reminding (2:5) people of what he had told them before.

On the other hand, if this was an oblique reference to the government or its ruler, there would have been ample reason to be discreet. Especially since Paul, like the others of his time, believed that Jesus was to return soon, therefore presumably during the dominion of the Roman Empire.

However, Jesus did not meet their expectations, and so another possibility arises, and that is that the one holding fast is the spiritual prince of the 6th head of the Beast of Rev. 17:10, the “one that is.” The seventh head who follows after is referred to as a “him/male,” so undoubtedly the 6th would also be a male. The demise of the 6th world-ruling spirit's authority, through the death or removal of his human ruler and collapse of that world-ruling system, might open the door for the latter-day son of perdition. But all of this is still just spec, as far as I can see. Too little info to work with.