thereselittleflower Posted February 5, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 5, 2016 3 hours ago, other one said: I hope you realize that whole books are written on your questions... The Quran was channeled to Mohammad by a fallen angel over many years. Mohammad wrote each of the visits on strips of paper and put them into a jar. After Mohammad's death his teachings were just word of mouth for a few years until they opened the jar and started putting the paper strips together. Not knowing the order they were written in they just put them into the Quran from the longest of them to the shortest. And it is a jumbled up mess unless you read them in chronological order. Between 650 and 656 the third Caliph Uthman ibn Affan caused the text of the Qur'an (Koran) to be codified. He placed Zayd ibn Thabit (Zaid Ibn Thabit), the personal scribe of Prophet Muhammad , in charge of the project. However there are two other sets of books that are considered teachings also. The hadiths. Bukhari is the one that is relied on the most and is considered second only to the Quran as to Islamic tradition. It is a writing of the things that people remembered Mohammad saying. There are other hadiths, but I am not familiar with the others. Such claims did not surface until 200 years after Mohammed's death. What Islam started as, and what it ended up as, are probably 2 very different things altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted February 5, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 597 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,117 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,851 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 5, 2016 7 hours ago, SINNERSAVED said: I was thumbing through the web links, and came across this, would this be a real and valid observation, or is it fable ? check it out tell me what you think? thank you http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/2006/04apr/catholicislam.html I do not trust anything that David Ike says, and very little of Chick. They do mention the names of people that existed but have no real proof of any of it outside what the one Jesuit said and I don't know him at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted February 5, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 597 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,117 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,851 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 5, 2016 4 hours ago, thereselittleflower said: Such claims did not surface until 200 years after Mohammed's death. What Islam started as, and what it ended up as, are probably 2 very different things altogether. I would agree that the texts we have today were finalized in the 900's, but the writing of it was started in the early 650's. Much like the Bible it ended up with different manuscripts. Shia's and Sunni's have different routes as to how it was finished. However it is the Shia route that gives us the order that the Quran was actually written.... and it really does take a whole book to give all the details of it. But most scholars will say that the codification of the Quran was in the early 650's and the final product later. I would suggest that Saved actually pick up a book or two if it matters and look into it himself. I personally am not comfortable with what either of us write here in this thread for neither of us are willing to get into the detail of the whole truth of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldSchool2 Posted February 5, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 701 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,511 Content Per Day: 1.35 Reputation: 1,759 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/16/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/18/1955 Share Posted February 5, 2016 On 12/24/2015 at 11:06 PM, SINNERSAVED said: so how did mohammed publish this book ?.... "Quran" literally means to recite, which strongly suggests that Mohammad was illiterate. Eventually his oral history was written down by an army of scribes and ultimately edited into its present violent form under the 'Uthman caliphate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted February 5, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 5, 2016 27 minutes ago, OldSchool2 said: "Quran" literally means to recite, which strongly suggests that Mohammad was illiterate. Eventually his oral history was written down by an army of scribes and ultimately edited into its present violent form under the 'Uthman caliphate. written down 200 years later . . . lots of editing possible there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted February 5, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 5, 2016 30 minutes ago, other one said: I would agree that the texts we have today were finalized in the 900's, but the writing of it was started in the early 650's. Much like the Bible it ended up with different manuscripts. Shia's and Sunni's have different routes as to how it was finished. However it is the Shia route that gives us the order that the Quran was actually written.... and it really does take a whole book to give all the details of it. But most scholars will say that the codification of the Quran was in the early 650's and the final product later. I would suggest that Saved actually pick up a book or two if it matters and look into it himself. I personally am not comfortable with what either of us write here in this thread for neither of us are willing to get into the detail of the whole truth of it. The story of Mohammed was not written down until 200 years after his death. Much is probably embellished, added, changed, etc. What the koran was originally and what it became, as well as the Islamic religion which was first a heretical christian sect split off from the Orthodox Church and what it has become, is a result of those intervening 200 years. Seems a lot happened during those 200 years that probably had little to do with what it originally was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted February 5, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 5, 2016 56 minutes ago, other one said: I do not trust anything that David Ike says, and very little of Chick. They do mention the names of people that existed but have no real proof of any of it outside what the one Jesuit said and I don't know him at all. And Alberto Rivera is a known liar and scam artist. That anyone would post his lies as worthy of discussion or belief is beyond the pale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted February 5, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 597 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,117 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,851 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 5, 2016 1 hour ago, thereselittleflower said: The story of Mohammed was not written down until 200 years after his death. Much is probably embellished, added, changed, etc. What the koran was originally and what it became, as well as the Islamic religion which was first a heretical christian sect split off from the Orthodox Church and what it has become, is a result of those intervening 200 years. Seems a lot happened during those 200 years that probably had little to do with what it originally was. That is simply not true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SINNERSAVED Posted February 5, 2016 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 6 Topic Count: 150 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,195 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 2,409 Days Won: 14 Joined: 07/30/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 5, 2016 4 hours ago, thereselittleflower said: And Alberto Rivera is a known liar and scam artist. That anyone would post his lies as worthy of discussion or belief is beyond the pale. can you prove your accusation, ? or is this your opinion again, prove this , anyone can say anything about anything, so show me that this link is what you say it is, can you do that ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted February 5, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 5, 2016 3 hours ago, other one said: That is simply not true I'm sorry but it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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