*Deidre* Posted March 9, 2016 Group: Senior Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 521 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 608 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/03/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 9, 2016 On 1/31/2016 at 8:23 AM, Littlelambseativy said: I will be the contrary voice in this discussion....one can be immersed as many times as they want but unless they are baptized by the Holy Spirit, they are not baptized. The thief on the cross was not immersed but on accepting Jesus and acknowledging Him as the Son of God and the Holy Spirit entering into him to convict and baptize him of who Jesus was, no amount of baptizing in water would gain him paradise/ heaven. It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that gains us eternal life. I know of many not immersed but baptized by the Holy Spirit including me, who I know without a shadow of a doubt will be in the rapture or have or will enter heaven before because it is the Holy Spirit that does the baptizing and makes a difference in a Christian's life. This...amen. I was baptized as a child physically, but it wasn't until last year, that I was born again. That I felt baptized by the Holy Spirit. Well stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorL Posted March 10, 2016 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 308 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 139 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/13/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/14/1944 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Greetings Deidre, 22 hours ago, *Deidre* said: This...amen. I was baptized as a child physically, but it wasn't until last year, that I was born again. That I felt baptized by the Holy Spirit. Well stated. Undoubtedly there is a wide range of opinion on this subject, but in the following there is no direct mention of Holy Spirit baptism, nor baptism of children. Acts 8:5-6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. There is no need of Holy Spirit infusion to believe what is preached. Salvation is by belief of the gospel, and this belief will motivate the individual to become identified with the death and resurrection of Christ through the waters of baptism. The thief on the cross was fully identified with Jesus in his crucifixion, and in the hope of the resurrection and coming kingdom, and in effect underwent a greater baptism than we experience. Kind regards Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted March 10, 2016 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.38 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 10, 2016 Can anyone show from Scripture or any other source, that the thief on the cross who confessed Yeshua as Messiah, had never in his life been immersed for the forgiveness of his sins ? ((earlier ((obviously)) in his life// like before he got arrested and charged and tried and convicted and crucified)) . . and second, entirely different , where / when does Yahweh's WORD/Yeshua approve of willful disobedience ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted March 10, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.34 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted March 10, 2016 12 minutes ago, simplejeff said: Can anyone show from Scripture or any other source, that the thief on the cross who confessed Yeshua as Messiah, had never in his life been immersed for the forgiveness of his sins ? Had he been baptized under the preaching of John the Baptizer, he would have already repented, and not been hanging on a cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted March 10, 2016 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.38 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 10, 2016 the romans put Jews and Christians and gentiles to death on a cross, didn't they ? Regardless of if they had repented or not. And even if they were not guilty of anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Deidre* Posted March 10, 2016 Group: Senior Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 521 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 608 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/03/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 10, 2016 1 hour ago, TrevorL said: Greetings Deidre, Undoubtedly there is a wide range of opinion on this subject, but in the following there is no direct mention of Holy Spirit baptism, nor baptism of children. Acts 8:5-6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. There is no need of Holy Spirit infusion to believe what is preached. Salvation is by belief of the gospel, and this belief will motivate the individual to become identified with the death and resurrection of Christ through the waters of baptism. The thief on the cross was fully identified with Jesus in his crucifixion, and in the hope of the resurrection and coming kingdom, and in effect underwent a greater baptism than we experience. Kind regards Trevor I came back to Christianity by the Holy Spirit. I left Christianity for a time, and the Holy Spirit brought me back. Not everyone's faith walk or how we have come to Christ, is identical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorL Posted March 10, 2016 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 308 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 139 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/13/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/14/1944 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Greetings simplejeff, 4 hours ago, simplejeff said: Can anyone show from Scripture or any other source, that the thief on the cross who confessed Yeshua as Messiah, had never in his life been immersed for the forgiveness of his sins ? The thief on the cross was justified by faith at the time of his repentance on the cross. It is irrelevant whether or not he had been baptised earlier by John or Jesus. What is important is to desist from using the thief on the cross as an excuse to refuse or not practice water baptism. I suggest that his confession, request and crucifixion with Jesus is the prime example of the very meaning of baptism. It has been suggested that John's record of the crucifixion states that the thief was crucified with Jesus, while the other was only crucified.John 19:32 (KJV): Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. Also Paul uses these terms to describe the crucified life, showing that this is an example to all believers, especially to the Galatians who had started to turn aside unto Judaism. Again this highlights the true meaning of baptism, a uniting by faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus.Galatians 2:20 (KJV): I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Kind regards Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kindle Posted April 18, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 53 Topic Count: 88 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 4,064 Content Per Day: 1.36 Reputation: 3,748 Days Won: 8 Joined: 02/23/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted April 18, 2016 (edited) Only god can change you through Christ also through the spirit. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Galatians 5:22-23King James Version (KJV) 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. being baptized is just an outward showing to the world that you have excepted Christ. even Christ was baptized. Edited April 18, 2016 by worthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartSearcher Posted April 19, 2016 Group: Junior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 82 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 99 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/28/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/20/1990 Share Posted April 19, 2016 I am sure the op has more than received her answer but for the sake of other new believers who might come upon this thread i want to give my input. No baptism does not change someone at least not water baptism. What changes a person is not baptism nor is it how well they go to church or know the scriptures it isn't about how often or how well they pray it isn't about how well they serve nor is it as to how they praise God. Anyone can do all of this but you see there is a difference between a Christian by title and a Christian by heart, Notice how i said a Christian by heart. The heart has everything to do with a person what is in the heart decides on what they believe what what lens they see through it decides who they are not just as a believer but as a person. Only a heart that is influenced by God can change, true enough the human will enables us as people to change and mature to change our view and understanding but to change in a Christ like way only God can do this. I was baptized I was dunked in the water but it had no effect on me however the more time I spent with God actively seeking him out in any situation however I could as i grew closer to him as i began to develop a deeper bond and relationship with him this is what changed me this is how my thoughts slowly yet surely became his thoughts his way of seeing slowly yet surely became my way of seeing his heart slowly yet surely and even now is slowly yet surely becoming my own. If the issue at hand is that one has a very hard time resisting the worldly temptations and they continue to keep falling over and over and over again then i have some experience in this. there was a time when I stole money constantly to feed my addiction, even though I was a christian I was too weak to overcome my addiction I cried out to God I begged him to help me I felt i was going to go to hell but I feared the most i would lose him. In my mind I saw a mental image of me falling down over and over and over again, I felt that I deserved his judgement and that it might come at any second and I would not disagree with it. But in that mental image as i saw myself falling down over and over what I saw wasn't his judgement it wasn't a lightning bolt striking an already down and beaten sinner what I saw instead surprised me I saw him lifting my face with caring eyes I heard him whisper in my heart get back up and keep fighting keep your hearts eyes on me. Such words were filled with life, instead of condemning me he encouraged me instead of tearing and cutting me down he built me up he upheld me when I myself couldn't stand. No matter how many times I fell I refused to stay down, true enough my addiction was strong and caused me to sin but desire for him to know him more to have a deeper and closer bond and love with him was stronger and because I kept my hearts eyes on him eventually we made it through that storm. A persons heart is not based on how much they don't fall down it is based on if they refuse to stay down or not and who their hearts eyes are set on. It's so very easy to keep our eyes focused on us on our weakness our sins our flaws our screw ups it's so easy to keep our eyes focused on the storm but if instead look past ourselves look past the storm and keep our eyes locked on him the impossible is then made possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyr212 Posted April 25, 2016 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 33 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/05/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted April 25, 2016 Yes, Baptism relieves us of original sin. It makes us clean and worthy to God. I think the actual act of being baptized would bring a significant change to goodness if one is truly trying to follow in Jesus' footsteps. God Bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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