The beast that goes into Perdition

[n2thelight]

41 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

I don't think you are understanding the context of the conversation.

I agree with you that he foreknew us even though we didn't exist yet.

 

What this conversation is about is some are claiming God personally knew us in a time before the creation account in Genesis.  That before we were human, before Adam and Eve were created, we had already been created and were living as something else altogether.  Some are claiming we lived on a pre-genesis earth with lucifer, that some of us rebelled with him, and then God decided to give us a second chance as humans.

Others are simply saying that God created all our souls before he created the heavens and the earth, and that before we are conceived in the womb, we are "somewhere else" waiting to be given a chance to become human.

When I am speaking against God knowing us before we were conceived, I am speaking against this concept that God personally knew us by being acquainted with us because our souls were already created before the earth was made.

 

 

c

 

 Guess maybe Im not understanding

You keep saying before we were human,which I call flesh,which shall return to dust.

How else could He have known us,personally?

[gdemoss]

19 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Thanks for an honest reply

I'll just say,once I understood the gap His Word really opened up to me.I understood for instance,the question I asked you,of why He hated Esau.How He could ordain Jeremiah a prophet before he was even born.I understood why He could interfere in some of our lives.I understood why some are of the Elect.

 

It's like knowing all of your children, not because He knows everything but because He knew us on a very personal level.

 

I feel satans sin,then known as lucifer was commited eons before the Garden

I understand.  The gap theory provides a foundation for you to answer many of the questions that you could not previously answer.  And it fits the general model of what you see around you in creation.  It then is much like the variablness I see in arguments that continue on to this day such as Calvin and Arminious.  

I am in the maximum amount of danger when everything seems to line up according to all I know and understand amd there exists something I do not know.  I believe that is why they are called rulers of darkness in high places.

In 2013 I was caught up in prophetic events that I was fully persuaded were happening all around me based on a perceived perfect timeline of human history tediously gathered that matched perfectly overlaying the scriptures.  I prepared for that which I perceived to be true and it never came.  Much of my life then was irreversibly destroyed.  I had to repent and rebuild.  For this cause I am hesitant to receive knowledge just because it makes sense to me.  My understanding is flawed.

Thank you for being a brother who is kind!

[thereselittleflower]

3 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

 Guess maybe Im not understanding

You keep saying before we were human,which I call flesh,which shall return to dust.

How else could He have known us,personally?

He didn't know us "personally" until we were conceived.

There is no well of souls, etc.

[n2thelight]

1 hour ago, thereselittleflower said:

He didn't know us "personally" until we were conceived.

There is no well of souls, etc.

Again,scripture proves you wrong

[n2thelight]

1 hour ago, gdemoss said:

I understand.  The gap theory provides a foundation for you to answer many of the questions that you could not previously answer.  And it fits the general model of what you see around you in creation.  It then is much like the variablness I see in arguments that continue on to this day such as Calvin and Arminious.

I am in the maximum amount of danger when everything seems to line up according to all I know and understand amd there exists something I do not know.  I believe that is why they are called rulers of darkness in high places.

In 2013 I was caught up in prophetic events that I was fully persuaded were happening all around me based on a perceived perfect timeline of human history tediously gathered that matched perfectly overlaying the scriptures.  I prepared for that which I perceived to be true and it never came.  Much of my life then was irreversibly destroyed.  I had to repent and rebuild.  For this cause I am hesitant to receive knowledge just because it makes sense to me.  My understanding is flawed.

Thank you for being a brother who is kind!

Thank you as well....

[BlindSeeker]

14 hours ago, gdemoss said:

I understand.  The gap theory provides a foundation for you to answer many of the questions that you could not previously answer.  And it fits the general model of what you see around you in creation.  It then is much like the variablness I see in arguments that continue on to this day such as Calvin and Arminious.  

I am in the maximum amount of danger when everything seems to line up according to all I know and understand amd there exists something I do not know.  I believe that is why they are called rulers of darkness in high places.

In 2013 I was caught up in prophetic events that I was fully persuaded were happening all around me based on a perceived perfect timeline of human history tediously gathered that matched perfectly overlaying the scriptures.  I prepared for that which I perceived to be true and it never came.  Much of my life then was irreversibly destroyed.  I had to repent and rebuild.  For this cause I am hesitant to receive knowledge just because it makes sense to me.  My understanding is flawed.

Thank you for being a brother who is kind!

I do appreciate your openness and honesty. I too have been at a similar place where I had to place all my beliefs safely on the altar of the God I did/do truly believed in... and that because everything I had been taught and believed didn't work as I clearly saw scripture stated it should in the life of a believer.

Over the years, however, I also discovered that part of my problem was a heart that wasn't wholeheartedly seeking and loving the God I knew. I'm not sharing that as a subtle accusation, honoring your openness with a like honest and open reply as well. One of my favourite verses (I have sooo many, lol) is this one in II Peter

II Peter 1:2 - Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord.

When Peter says, “Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God,” what many fail to understand from the English transliteration is that the Greek word which was translated “knowledge” is not a noun, but actually more of a verb. In the original Greek the word implies “recognition, i.e. (by implication) full discernment, acknowledgement: (ac-knowledge-ing).” Note the context below in which the same Greek word was used, but translated differently in Paul’s epistle to the Colossians.

Colossians 2:2 - That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, even of the Father and of Christ; 3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Thus Peter and Paul agree that true faith will remain in action by it faithfully (i.e., loving obedience) acknowledging God in all things. That is actually how Young’s Literal Translation renders it -

II Peter 1:2 - Grace to you, and peace be multiplied in the acknowledgement of God and of Jesus our Lord!

We all know that a person can walk into a room and have knowledge of another in the room and yet still fail to acknowledge them. Similarly, so can we discern the difference between receiving the grace of God in vain and thus having a vain religious faith, and that of correctly recieving grace's empowering in our loving obedience with true faith. True faith not only has and therefore grows in its "knowledge" of God, it "acknowledges" God and His will and is compelled into action because of one’s love and gratitude to Him. The subtle exhortation then being that we need continue to acknowledge God through our faith with loving obedience or we run the risk of falling into a stagnant faith (vain believism) that merely professes a belief in a particular so-called “Christian” theology but lacks an intimate knowledge of God and our Savior Jesus Christ.

James 1:21 - Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

James 2:17 - Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.  18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works... 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

It is only when *faith is truly alive through the correct responsive action of love that God’s grace and peace can be “multiplied” in our lives. For if “by grace ye are saved,” it is through active faith that we are saved to the uttermost. Not by the works of faith we do, but by our active faith allowing the grace of God to gather us unto Himself through the “sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience, and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.” 

James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Be not deceived, if a man knows to do good and does it not, it is both a sin and grievance to the Holy Spirit of God. So keep your honesty pure and continue in love and gratitude to abide in His love and He will multiply His grace and peace in your life.

“Awake thou that sleepest, arise from the dead, Christ shall give thee light. Awake to righteousness and sin not. For some [of you] have not the [intimate] knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.”

(Eph. 6:14, I Cor. 15:34)

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2016 by BlindSeeker
grammatic, added a verse

[thereselittleflower]

2 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

I do appreciate your openness and honesty. I too have been at a similar place where I had to place all my beliefs safely on the altar of the God I did/do truly believed in... and that because everything I had been taught and believed didn't work as I clearly saw scripture stated it should in the life of a believer.

Over the years, however, I also discovered that part of my problem was a heart that wasn't wholeheartedly seeking and loving the God I knew. I'm not sharing that as a subtle accusation, honoring your openness with a like honest and open reply as well. One of my favourite verses (I have sooo many, lol) is this one in II Peter

II Peter 1:2 - Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord.

When Peter says, “Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God,” what many fail to understand from the English transliteration is that the Greek word which was translated “knowledge” is not a noun, but actually more of a verb. In the original Greek the word implies “recognition, i.e. (by implication) full discernment, acknowledgement: (ac-knowledge-ing).” Note the context below in which the same Greek word was used, but translated differently in Paul’s epistle to the Colossians.

 

 

 

 

 

Actually this is not quite true

 

The word translated "knowledge" in 2 Peter 1:2 is

• ἐπίγνωσις epígnōsis, ep-ig'-no-sis; from G1921; recognition, i.e. (by implication) full discernment, acknowledgement:—(ac-)knowledge(-ing, - ment).
• Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

  1. precise and correct knowledge

     1. used in the NT of the knowledge of things ethical and divine

 

• Thayer's Greek Lexicon
  STRONGS NT 1922: ἐπίγνωσις
  
  ἐπίγνωσις, ἐπιγνώσεως, ἡ (ἐπιγινώσκω, which see (cf. also Lightfoot onColossians 1:9; Trench, § 75 at the end)), precise and correct knowledge; used in the N. T. of the knowledge of things ethical and divine: ,,,,, with the genitive of the person known; — of God, especially the knowledge of his holy will and of the blessings which he has bestowed and constantly bestows on men through Christ: Ephesians 1:17; Colossians 1:10; 2 Peter 1:2;

 

as we an see this word, as used by Peter here, is not about acknowledging the person of God, but is used in the New Testament to refer to "the knowledge of things ethical and divine"  "especially the knowledge of his holy will and of teh blessings which he has bestowed and constantly bestows on men through Christ."

This is not mere recognition, this is actual knowledge of things divine, things ethical, God's holy will and the blessings which He bestows on us because we know Him.

 

 

 

Quote

Colossians 2:2 - That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, even of the Father and of Christ; 3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Thus Peter and Paul agree that true faith will remain in action by it faithfully (i.e., loving obedience) acknowledging God in all things. That is actually how Young’s Literal Translation renders it -

II Peter 1:2 - Grace to you, and peace be multiplied in the acknowledgement of God and of Jesus our Lord!

 

 

Notice that in Colossians the form of word is actually different than the word used in 2 Peter.  Here it is  ἐπίγνωσιν instead of   ἐπιγνώσει so they have different meanings.  

Here in Colossians it means:

• knowledge of things ethical and divine: absolutely, Philippians 1:9;Colossians 3:10; κατ' ἐπίγνωσιν, Romans 10:2; with the genitive of the thing known, Colossians 1:9; Colossians 2:2; Philemon 1:6; 

as opposed to 2 Peter where it means:

• the knowledge of his holy will and of the blessings which he has bestowed and constantly bestows on men through Christ

 

So we see the word is used somewhat differently in 2 Peter and is not talking about acknowledging God as we see here in Colossians,  but is talking about the knowledge of ethical and divine things itself imparted from knowing God.

So what has happened in the post above is the translation of 2 Peter 1:2 has been deliberately altered to change what the scripture here actually says incorrectly use it to bolster a teaching.     This is always dangerous and can easily lead to error.

It is a dangerous thing to alter what the scriptures say to suit one's teaching, even if what immediately follows is true, for it lays the groundwork and foundation for further error later on.    Eve was deceived in the garden because she altered what God had said to Adam and satan was able to use her error against her.

He still does the same today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MorningGlory]

9 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Again,scripture proves you wrong

Since there IS no 'well of souls' the onus is on you, N2thelight, to provide Scripture to verify something that no one else has ever read in the Bible. 

[thereselittleflower]

10 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Again,scripture proves you wrong

All you've done is alter the meaning of scriptures to suit you.  

As I said above,   

It is a dangerous thing to alter what the scriptures say to suit one's teaching, for it lays the groundwork and foundation for further error later on.    Eve was deceived in the garden because she altered what God had said to Adam and satan was able to use her error against her.

He still does the same today.

 

[thereselittleflower]

On 2/18/2016 at 3:31 PM, Sister said:

Right.  If the "sons of God" went into the daughters of men, then they pro-created by mating with man, producing a another type of "species", half flesh, half spirit type children.  This was not allowed, and those particular angels responsible for that, are locked up till this day.  They are not free to roam around.  Their offspring were not killed in the flood completely. They are what we call "evil spirits".  They are working under the fallen angels. The angels nor their offspring are not allowed to "procreate" today, but have taught man how to do that in the lab mixing genes.

 

If this happened, this is different than the Incarnation.

There was no procreating in the Incarnation.