If no rapture

[thereselittleflower]

3 hours ago, rollinTHUNDER said:

You're using a poor translation.  It should say the tribes of the earth will mourn, not all people of the earth.  The reason is because the sign of the Son of man will signal the end of the times of the Gentiles (rapture).  The tribes here, is referring to the remnant Jews, and the other tribes that are still scattered among the nations.  They will then mourn for the one they have pierced, and they will lift up their heads and know that their redemption draws near, for He will save them.

Matthew 24:30 - And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

But the second coming will be a time of wrath, no mourning here.  And this will be at least two weeks later, judging from the phases of the moon.  There was no moon in Matthew 24, but this moon in Rev. 6 is a blood moon, which is a full lunar eclipse.  The difference is that a new moon sheds no light, but a full moon always comes two weeks later. 

Revelation 6:12-17 - And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood ¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. ¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. ¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; ¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: ¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

If you still can't tell the difference, you just can't see it yet.  Hopefully one day you will.

 

 

Cheers. 

Again, your argument appears to be based on semantics.  Whether we say  "all the tribes of the earth" or "all the people of the earth" is really immaterial.  The point is the appearance of the sign of Son of Man, the Coming of the Son of Man is one and the same event.  

As far as whether it should be tribe or people, Thayer's Greek Lexicon says of the use of the word

• φυλή phylḗ, foo-lay'; from G5453 (compare G5444); an offshoot, i.e. race or clan:—kindred, tribe.

• a tribe

  1. in the NT all the persons descending from one of the twelve sons of the patriarch, Jacob

• a nation, people

in Matthew 24:30 that   "a nation, people" is what is grammatically conveyed:

• Thayer's Greek Lexicon
  STRONGS NT 5443: φυλή
  
  φυλή, φυλῆς, ἡ (from φύω), from Pindar and Herodotus down;

  1. a tribe; in the N. T. all the persons descended from one of the twelve sons of the patriarch Jacob (the Sept. for מַטֵּה and שֵׁבֶט; also for מִשְׁפָּחָה, see πατριά, 2): Hebrews 7:13f; with the addition of the genitives Ασηρ, Βενιαμίν, etc., Luke 2:36; Acts 13:21; Romans 11:1; Philippians 3:5; Revelation 5:5; Revelation 7:5-8;δώδεκα φυλάς τοῦ Ἰσραήλ, Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30; James 1:1;Revelation 21:12; (πᾶσα φυλή υἱῶν Ἰσραήλ, Revelation 7:4).

  2. a race, nation, people: Matthew 24:30; 

 

so actually, the translation I used is not poor at all.

 

A 2 week period is an interesting take.  Even if it were a two week period, in the greater scheme of things, with the entirety of time of earth's existence, 2 weeks is a mere blip, not even that -  a micro,  micro, micro blip.

 Even if I agreed with you that there were a 2 week period between the appearance of the sign of the Son of man in heaven and the "coming" of the Son of man in the clouds, I would not at all say they are two different events.  They would still be one and the same.

The imagery used here by Jesus is that of an ancient King returning to his kingdom, being met outside the city by his faithful subjects, who then escort him into the city.    It is all one and the same event.

 

I'm curious though, what do you think happens in that up to 2 week period of time?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[thereselittleflower]

2 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Well therese, what I said that I did not see in her vision is a PRE-TRIB rapture. I see the invisble aspect, but she herself said that sign that is seen, is Jesus Himself. She also said:

" I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man, even Jesus"

When is that, where is the language in the Bible" Matt 24, when Jesus returns after the tribulation, where did MM assert that it was pre-trib?

I agree she didn't make it a "pre-tribulation" event.   In fact, by what she said, one would be led to believe, if they were going to put it  in terms of a tribulation, it would happen AFTER the tribulation, for she saw these same believers going through many trials with a false christ:

• I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that it it were possible the very elect will be deceived. - [This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus]; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will he shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed - but the trial of real faith will be found to honour and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold.

  I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive - for it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work - he will have a counterpart for every part of God's truth, and an imitation for every work of the Spirit.

  The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God - and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he - when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will he outward trial too, but 'tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out.

In fact, except for the challenge to the words of Christ that every eye will see him when he returns, I can find little, if anything, wrong with what she said - but this would be dependent on how one would interpret her words here, which continue after the part I quoted above:

• [The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept].

  I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit - have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan - be full of eyes within -be clay in the hands of the potter -submit to be filled, filled with God. This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the Lamb.

  I saw it to be the will of God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people, was their turning from Jesus, who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enters in he shall find pasture. They were bypassing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God.

  When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it - they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God's holiness, and a ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross.

  I saw that night, and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been - the servants of God sealed in their foreheads - great conformity to Jesus - his holy holy image seen in his people - just the bride made comely by his comeliness put upon her.

  This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air - and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry.

  Amen and Amen Even so come Lord Jesus.''

 

But to dismiss her influence on Darby because she didn't make it a pre-trib claim is really to do disservice, I believe, to the influence she did play in his forming his ideas about the rapture, etc.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

10 hours ago, thereselittleflower said:

A 2 week period is an interesting take.  Even if it were a two week period, in the greater scheme of things, with the entirety of time of earth's existence, 2 weeks is a mere blip, not even that.   Even if I agreed with you that there were a 2 week period between the appearance of the sign of the Son of man in heaven and the "coming" of the Son of man in the clouds, I would not at all say they are two different events.  They would still be one and the same.

Most Gentile believers don't realize just how significant that 2 week period is, because they have been taught that the old covenant is obsolete, because Christ fulfilled the Mosaic law.  But the Mosaic law has not been fulfilled yet, not entirely.  And Jesus said that not one jot or tittle will be removed from the law until ALL is fulfilled.  And just as some of the old covenant prophecies have been fulfilled, some still remain unfulfilled, especially the prophecies relating to the endtime.

But also, the old covenant biblical feasts must be fulfilled as well, because they are God's appointed times.  This is why the two week period should not be overlooked.  Christ fulfilled the spring feasts in the 1st century (Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits & Pentecost).  But when He returns He will also fulfill the fall feast (Trumpets, Atonement & Tabernacles).  I believe, along with many others, that the rapture will occur on the feast of trumpets (1 Tishri).  This feast does not begin until the first tiny sliver of the new moon appears and is witnessed.  It does not always appear on the first night, because sometimes it doesn't show until the next day, which is why it is the only feast that does not have a set time to begin, because no one knows the day or the hour the moon will appear. 

The next feast is the Day of Atonement nine days later (10th of Tishri).  The ten days in between trumpets & Atonement are known by the Jews as the days of awe.  It's a time of repentance for them, in hopes that their sins will be for given for that year.  After the rapture, all nations will be gathered to attack Israel, but they will mourn when they see the Son of man appear and repent (Matt. 24:29-31).  I believe Christ will forgive them and save the remnant on the Day of Atonement.  Five days later the moon will be full at the beginning of the feast of Tabernacles (15th of Tishri), which is what I believe we are seeing in Rev. 6:12-17.

It appears that you are a post-tribber, believing the rapture and second coming will happen on the same day and/or that there's only a second coming and no rapture.  If so, good luck with that.  To me, that's like saying Christ fulfilled all of the spring feasts in one day as well, when we know that was not the case.  And neither will the fall feasts be fulfilled in a single day either.  It's not even possible, as I see it.  However, I will say that the post-trib view is much closer to the truth than pre-trib and mid-trib.  As for me, I'm sticking with pre-wrath.  The pre-wrath rapture rocks, but only if you're one of His elect.  If not, be prepared to enter into the hour of trial, when the saints will be overcome (martyred) by the beast (Rev. 3:10, 6:9-11, 13:7-8, 20:4).

 

 

Cheers. 

 

[n2thelight]

Time for the chart again =)

 

Matthew 24, 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 are the same event
The following tables demonstrate very well that all three passages in the Bible that are referring to the second coming of Christ are precisely that. God never intended for His Word to be cryptic or some mountain of confusion where one or more passages are supposedly referring to the second coming and others to some supposed fictional secret rapture.

By comparing point by point in the following two passages, we can observe that both of the following two chapters are referring to the same event. Observe the perfect parallels below.

1 Thessalonians 4	1 Corinthians 15
4:16 - the Lord Himself shall come	15:23 - are Christ’s at His coming
4:14 - sleep	15:51 - sleep
4:16 - shout, voice, trump	15:52 - the trumpet shall sound
4:16 - dead in Christ shall rise first	15:52 - dead shall be raised

 

Now compare Matthew 24 with the above events using 1 Thessalonians since some erroneously teach that Matthew 24 is talking about the glorious second coming of Jesus, which they teach is a different event to the above chapters which they say refers to a secret rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4 and 5	Matthew 24
4:15 - coming (Parousia)	24:27 - coming (Parousia)
4:17 - clouds	24:30 - clouds
4:16 - shout, voice trump	24:31 - sound of a trumpet
4:17 - caught up together	24:31 - gather together
5:1 - times and seasons	24:36 - day or hour
5:2 - a thief	24:43 - a thief
5:3 - sudden destruction	24:39 - took them all away
5:6 - watch	24:42 - watch

 

As you can see, not only are these the same event and so parallel each other perfectly but are even in the same order. There are not two different aspects of the return of Jesus. There is only one second coming and the theory of a secret rapture with a second chance is just another deception of the enemy.

Matthew 24	1 Thessalonians 4	1 Corinthians 15
Jesus coming	Jesus coming	At His coming
Trumpet	Trumpet	Last trump
Angels gather saints	Dead saints raised	Dead saints raised
Angels gather saints	Living saints caught up	Living saints changed
Coming in the clouds	Coming in the clouds	Not mentioned

[Omegaman 3.0]

5 hours ago, thereselittleflower said:

But to dismiss her influence on Darby because she didn't make it a pre-trib claim is really to do disservice, I believe, to the influence she did play in his forming his ideas about the rapture, etc.

I have never said she did not influence Darby, my only contention was that I do not blame here for dispenstionalism, or the pretrib notion, like some of my post-trib brethren do. I think many of them have heard this, and then pass it on, without have actually read the contents of what she said. I try not to parrot others, if I hear something new to me, I try to investigate it myself. In fact, that is how I switched to post-trib in the first place, I heard of it, then searched the scriptures literally daily, like some other believers I read about once, to see whether these things we so. 

[thereselittleflower]

3 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I have never said she did not influence Darby, my only contention was that I do not blame here for dispenstionalism, or the pretrib notion, like some of my post-trib brethren do. I think many of them have heard this, and then pass it on, without have actually read the contents of what she said. I try not to parrot others, if I hear something new to me, I try to investigate it myself. In fact, that is how I switched to post-trib in the first place, I heard of it, then searched the scriptures literally daily, like some other believers I read about once, to see whether these things we so. 

I agree, dispensationalism came from Darby.  But whether or not he would have come up with dispensationalism as it came to be without MacDonald's contribution is questionable.

 

 

[WilliamL]

13 hours ago, rollinTHUNDER said:

I'll show you another way in Matthew:

Matthew 24:31 = rapture = Judgment of house of God (1 Pet. 4:17-18)
Matthew 25:31 = second coming = judgment of the nations (Math. 25:31-46)

When the Presence of YHWH came during the Exodus era, He stayed.

You seem to miss the possibility (which I take as a certainty) that when Christ descends to take up his elect in the Rapture, the continuing Presence will remain in this realm to execute His Wrath. A number of OT prophecies speak about God's dealing with Israel and her enemies on earth during this time, personally. The Lord's Second Coming is continuous, not intermittent, beginning at the time of the Rapture, and even somewhat before.

Acts 3:19 ... times of refreshing [shall] come from the Presence of the Lord, 20 and ... He [shall] send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

[simplejeff]

Well,  if the Shepherd has abaondoned His sheep TODAY,  wouldn't he just be a hireling ?

[rollinTHUNDER]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

When the Presence of YHWH came during the Exodus era, He stayed.

You seem to miss the possibility (which I take as a certainty) that when Christ descends to take up his elect in the Rapture, the continuing Presence will remain in this realm to execute His Wrath. A number of OT prophecies speak about God's dealing with Israel and her enemies on earth during this time, personally. The Lord's Second Coming is continuous, not intermittent, beginning at the time of the Rapture, and even somewhat before.

Acts 3:19 ... times of refreshing [shall] come from the Presence of the Lord, 20 and ... He [shall] send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

I'm not able to understand the point you're trying to make here.  Though, I assume you are trying to force Christ to the earth immediately after the rapture in order that He might stay?  Is that it?

[WilliamL]

45 minutes ago, rollinTHUNDER said:

I'm not able to understand the point you're trying to make here.  Though, I assume you are trying to force Christ to the earth immediately after the rapture in order that He might stay?  Is that it?

I am not "trying to force Christ" to do anything, would be a useless endeavor.

The point I am making is that when the Lord personally intervenes again in history, that intervention will be continuous from then on. For just one example:

Ezek. 20:34 “I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury/wrath poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. 36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you,” says the Lord GOD.

This takes place on earth during the "time of Jacob's trouble," that is, during the time of God's Wrath. After the Rapture of the elect.