douggg Posted May 20, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted May 20, 2016 (edited) 18 hours ago, BlindSeeker said: Plus, Daniel 8:22 and 23 are excellent examples of how the grammar is correct in light of the whole prophetic passage, that the four kingdoms are clearly defined as each of them having “their [own individual] kingdom.” Daniel 8:22 - Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. I pray you are not so blinded by your own theory and pride that you fail to see this simple truth here, that the plural of kingdoms continues in the word "their." It is one kingdom in the text of Daniel 8:23. The "their" reflects the plural of - "transgressors", not kingdoms. In verse 8:17 below, the angel was giving an explanation of the previous vision Daniel saw, which concludes in the end times, with the little horn's transgression of the desolation. Quote Quote 17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. 20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. We know for an absolute fact that Media and Persia, Greece and the break up kingdoms are historic. - verses 8:20-22. What is left to finish explaining the entire vision is the transgression of desolation by the little horn; that completes the vision in the end times.. So in Daniel 8:23 there is no connection to Daniel 8:22. Daniel 8:23 is about the little horn, and completion of the vision in the end times. There is a gap between the four break-up kingdoms and the little horn's end times completion of the vision of over 2000 years. We know that in retrospect. It could not have been understood until our day. Media and Persia, Greece and the break up kingdoms, there was no gap between those. But like the prince who shall come and confirm the covenant in Daniel 9:26-27. There is a gap of 2000 years to the end times, to complete the Daniel 8 prophecy as well. When you try to connect the historic events ending with the the break up kingdoms - to the end times events of the little horn and the kingdom of the transgressors, it not going to work because they are of different eras. The fulfillment of what is now the historic verses 8:20-22 validates that the prophecy is true, for those of us who live in the end times when the entire prophecy of Daniel 8 is completed. Edited May 20, 2016 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted May 21, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,041 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 426 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 21, 2016 14 hours ago, douggg said: It is one kingdom in the text of Daniel 8:23. The "their" reflects the plural of - "transgressors", not kingdoms. In verse 8:17 below, the angel was giving an explanation of the previous vision Daniel saw, which concludes in the end times, with the little horn's transgression of the desolation. We know for an absolute fact that Media and Persia, Greece and the break up kingdoms are historic. - verses 8:20-22. What is left to finish explaining the entire vision is the transgression of desolation by the little horn; that completes the vision in the end times.. So in Daniel 8:23 there is no connection to Daniel 8:22.... [edited] Apart from the fact that your baiting and switching here, because the topic we were discussing was “kingdom” versus “kingdoms,” and now were on a historical review of the beast and Daniel, I must be honest with you that now I do fear you are blinded by your own theory and pride if you truly fail to see the obvious correlation of verse 23 to verse 22. Tell me, just what part of “And” are you not understanding here? Daniel 8:22,23 - Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. Actually, let’s do this, because I am sure you are aware that there was no capitalization or punctuation in the original Hebrew, so let’s remove all that and look at it that way in the English… now that being broken whereas four stood up for it four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation but not in his power and in the latter time of their kingdom when the transgressors are come to the full a king of fierce countenance and understanding dark sentences shall stand up So, perhaps you can further explain your words below… 14 hours ago, douggg said: Daniel 8:23 is about the little horn, and completion of the vision in the end times. There is a gap between the four break-up kingdoms and the little horn's end times completion of the vision of over 2000 years. We know that in retrospect. It could not have been understood until our day. Media and Persia, Greece and the break up kingdoms, there was no gap between those. But like the prince who shall come and confirm the covenant in Daniel 9:26-27. There is a gap of 2000 years to the end times, to complete the Daniel 8 prophecy as well. When you try to connect the historic events ending with the the break up kingdoms - to the end times events of the little horn and the kingdom of the transgressors, it not going to work because they are of different eras. So, Douggg, enlighten me. Just where or how did you come up with that? It certainly isn’t from the scriptures. Or did you somehow get a peek at the original Hebrew text and noticed there was 2000-character gap dividing the content of verse 22 from that of verse 23 and figured it must have a 2000-year significance? What if your foundation for making such a bold statement and splitting the passage in two and altering the clear flow of thought within the prophecy? Now, to be honest, Douggg, and I don’t mean to be offensive, but I’ve lost any hope or confidence that you will truly consider anything I or anyone else says to you contrary to what you believe. Especially in light of your apparent inability to see the obvious, that and your doggedness of changing topics as we go. Nevertheless, below is a perspective of one who was by far much closer to both the time and subject of the matter and significantly more qualified than both of us to rightly divide this part of Daniel’s prophecy. So since other people are reading along on this thread, perhaps they might be inspired to prayerful reconsider all these things in light of what Josephus wrote below. Josephus – Antiquities of the Jews – Book 10 – Chapter 11 – Para 7 …He also related, that when he stood up, he was shown a great ram, with many horns growing out of his head, and that the last was higher than the rest: that after this he looked to the west, and saw a he-goat carried through the air from that quarter; that he rushed upon the ram with violence, and smote him twice with his horns, and overthrew him to the ground, and trampled upon him: that afterward he saw a very great horn growing out of the head of the he-goat, and that when it was broken off, four horns grew up that were exposed to each of the four winds, and he wrote that out of them arose another lesser horn, which, as he said, waxed great; and that God showed to him that it should fight against his nation, and take their city by force, and bring the temple worship to confusion, and forbid the sacrifices to be offered for one thousand two hundred and ninety-six days. Daniel wrote that he saw these visions in the Plain of Susa; and he hath informed us that God interpreted the appearance of this vision after the following manner: He said that the ram signified the kingdoms of the Medes and Persians, and the horns those kings that were to reign in them; and that the last horn signified the last king, and that he should exceed all the kings in riches and glory: that the he-goat signified that one should come and reign from the Greeks, who should twice fight with the Persian, and overcome him in battle, and should receive his entire dominion: that by the great horn which sprang out of the forehead of the he-goat was meant the first king; and that the springing up of four horns upon its falling off, and the conversion of every one of them to the four quarters of the earth, signified the successors that should arise after the death of the first king, and the partition of the kingdom among them, and that they should be neither his children, nor of his kindred, that should reign over the habitable earth for many years; and that from among them there should arise a certain king that should overcome our nation and their laws, and should take away their political government, and should spoil the temple, and forbid the sacrifices to be offered for three years' time. And indeed it so came to pass, that our nation suffered these things under Antiochus Epiphanes, according to Daniel's vision, and what he wrote many years before they came to pass. In the very same manner Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman government, and that our country should be made desolate by them. All these things did this man leave in writing, as God had showed them to him, insomuch that such as read his prophecies, and see how they have been fulfilled, would wonder at the honor wherewith God honored Daniel… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted May 21, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted May 21, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, BlindSeeker said: Apart from the fact that your baiting and switching here, because the topic we were discussing was “kingdom” versus “kingdoms,” and now were on a historical review of the beast and Daniel, I must be honest with you that now I do fear you are blinded by your own theory and pride if you truly fail to see the obvious correlation of verse 23 to verse 22. Tell me, just what part of “And” are you not understanding here? Daniel 8:22,23 - Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. Actually, let’s do this, because I am sure you are aware that there was no capitalization or punctuation in the original Hebrew, so let’s remove all that and look at it that way in the English… now that being broken whereas four stood up for it four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation but not in his power and in the latter time of their kingdom when the transgressors are come to the full a king of fierce countenance and understanding dark sentences shall stand up The angel explained to Daniel the vision in the same segments the vision was given. Segment 4 was the last of the series of segments. segment 1, segment 2, segment 3, and segment 4. Segment 4 is end times as the entire vision is not finished until the end times. Segments 1, 2, 3 are historic and the information is available from any known history source. Within the vision itself, the separation between what we now know to be historic verses and the end times verses takes place between Daniel 8:8 (end of the historic verses) and Daniel 8:9 (beginning of the end times verses). segment 1 20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. segment 2 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. segment 3 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. segment 4 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. Quote So since other people are reading along on this thread, perhaps they might be inspired to prayerful reconsider all these things in light of what Josephus wrote below. Josephus – Antiquities of the Jews – Book 10 – Chapter 11 – Para 7 Josephus (100AD) lived in the first century, not the end times - and his interpretation of Daniel 8 regarding Antiochus IV is therefore erroneous because he could not foresee the end times - 2000 years after his time, when the entire prophecy of Daniel 8, including that of the little horn, as stated in the text, will be completed. The same goes for Rashi (1000 AD), and Adam Clarke (1800's), and his notion of a day equals a year to get 2015 for completion of the time, times, and half times, proved to be in error. Quote Now, to be honest, Douggg, and I don’t mean to be offensive, but I’ve lost any hope or confidence that you will truly consider anything I or anyone else says to you contrary to what you believe. Perhaps you should consider that your reliance on commentators who lived not in the end times is misplaced. Jesus is coming and his reward is with him. Edited May 21, 2016 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted May 21, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,041 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 426 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 21, 2016 8 hours ago, douggg said: The angel explained to Daniel the vision in the same segments the vision was given. Segment 4 was the last of the series of segments. segment 1, segment 2, segment 3, and segment 4. Segment 4 is end times as the entire vision is not finished until the end times. Segments 1, 2, 3 are historic and the information is available from any known history source. [Edited] Perhaps you should consider that your reliance on commentators who lived not in the end times is misplaced. Tell me Douggg, which of these "segments" of history you yourself were an eyewitness to, and what parts of history have you embraced as factual because of the reports of other historians? Which are in fact commentators.... 8 hours ago, douggg said: Within the vision itself, the separation between what we now know to be historic verses and the end times verses takes place between Daniel 8:8 (end of the historic verses) and Daniel 8:9 (beginning of the end times verses). segment 1 20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. segment 2 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. segment 3 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. segment 4 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. The "separation" between the "segments" are simple definable by the transfer of power and focus of the scripture, but are linear in time. You sitll haven't explained the foundation of your 2000-year gap theory.... 8 hours ago, douggg said: Josephus (100AD) lived in the first century, not the end times - and his interpretation of Daniel 8 regarding Antiochus IV is therefore erroneous because he could not foresee the end times - 2000 years after his time, when the entire prophecy of Daniel 8, including that of the little horn, as stated in the text, will be completed. The same goes for Rashi (1000 AD), and Adam Clarke (1800's), and his notion of a day equals a year to get 2015 for completion of the time, times, and half times, proved to be in error. Actually, Josephus was there to watch the fourth beast trample and devour and scatter the residue of the Jews. He witnessed the end of Israel in all its civil and governmental attributes and the temple, with all the record of the priestly genealogies, sacrifice and oblations scatter to the wind by the wrath of God for their iniquities and rejection of the Lamb of God. Just because Israel was rebirthed does not mean that as a nation with all its governmental and geographical attributes didn't end in 70 AD. Again, you have only seeked in cconfirm my fear that your own pride in this matter, which is unmistakably marked by your constant assertions that are void of sound scriptural validation, (unless injected with personal conjectures here and there between verses), will eventual serve to prove you are the one in error. As far as Adam Clarke goes, he doesn't need my validation to prove he was a man of integrity who diligently sought to prove all things. I will on the other hand remind you and everyone else reading of what I posted earlier concerning, as you put it, "his notion of a day equals a year to get 2015 for completion of the time, times, and half times..." However, for the open record regarding the date Adam Clarke concluded, he clearly stated the following, “But I neither lay stress upon nor draw conclusions from these dates." So I'd be careful telling everyone how wrong he is.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted May 21, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted May 21, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, BlindSeeker said: Tell me Douggg, which of these "segments" of history you yourself were an eyewitness to, and what parts of history have you embraced as factual because of the reports of other historians? Which are in fact commentators.... I am an eyewitness to the end times. Matthew 24: 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. ____________________________________________________________ As to your other question. What historian or commentator of any sort claims that Media-Persia, Greece, the four breakup kingdoms - is not a historical fact? Quote The "separation" between the "segments" are simple definable by the transfer of power and focus of the scripture, but are linear in time. You sitll haven't explained the foundation of your 2000-year gap theory.... Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 9, Daniel 11, Daniel 12, all conclude in the end times. Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Quote Actually, Josephus was there to watch the fourth beast trample and devour and scatter the residue of the Jews. He witnessed the end of Israel in all its civil and governmental attributes and the temple, with all the record of the priestly genealogies, sacrifice and oblations scatter to the wind by the wrath of God for their iniquities and rejection of the Lamb of God. Just because Israel was rebirthed does not mean that as a nation with all its governmental and geographical attributes didn't end in 70 AD. Josephus (100AD) did not live in the end times, by 2000 years. The conclusion of the entire vision in Daniel 8 did not take place in Josephus's day, nor before. The parts about the little horn are still forthcoming. Quote As far as Adam Clarke goes, he doesn't need my validation to prove he was a man of integrity who diligently sought to prove all things. I will on the other hand remind you and everyone else reading of what I posted earlier concerning, as you put it, "his notion of a day equals a year to get 2015 for completion of the time, times, and half times..." However, for the open record regarding the date Adam Clarke concluded, he clearly stated the following, “But I neither lay stress upon nor draw conclusions from these dates." So I'd be careful telling everyone how wrong he is.... I never said anyone lacked integrity. As far as bible prophecy interpretation, Adam Clarke was proven wrong on his notion of a day is a year, regardless if he doubted his own interpretation, and the base date and rationale to add his 1260 years to it get 2015. That is something that has been proven wrong. He was wrong on a number of his other interpretations as well. Adam Clarke certainly did not forsee the formation of the EU in the end times, over a hundred years after him. Jesus is coming soon and his reward is with him. Edited May 21, 2016 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted May 22, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,041 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 426 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 22, 2016 On 21/5/2016 at 11:37 AM, douggg said: I am an eyewitness to the end times. Well, the question was in relation to the past. But based upon your answer I assume it is safe to assume you weren't there to see all history unfold and are obligated like the rest of us to utilize the accounting of men that have gone before us as we endeavor to rightly divide the Word of Truth. On 21/5/2016 at 11:37 AM, douggg said: Matthew 24: 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Ok, let’s examine your submittal of Matthew 24:34 in the pure light of some scriptural reality… if you have the patience. Hebrews 8:13 - In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. The above two verses speak of the destruction of the temple that was not afar off. This of course would have been the fulfillment of Jesus words to the disciples when they were marveling at the immense size of the stones used in its erection. Josephus – Antiquities of the Jews – Book XV – Chapter 11: “Now the temple was built of stones that were white and strong, and each of their length was twenty-five cubits [FIFTY feet long], their height was eight [SIXTEEN feet in thickness], and their breadth about twelve [TWENTY-FOUR feet broad].” Matthew 24:1 - And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. So we can reasonably assume that that generation which heard His words had not passed away yet. But let’s look at the following verse. Matthew 24:3 - And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? However, in order to truly understand the answer Jesus gives to the disciples’ questions that leads up to His statement in verse 34, it is absolutely necessary to understand their question in its true historical setting and not one’s preconceived notion. That means anyone, even you Douggg, seeking to rightly divide this passage, they need to realize the necessity to first establish exactly what the limit of the disciples’ understanding and what it was that they at that time were expecting to soon come to pass. Otherwise, you will hear their question in the light of your own understanding. Without a doubt, until one sets aside their own preconceived ideas as to what they were asking then they are going doubtlessly going to misunderstand Jesus’s answer to them. But if one utilizes the scriptures properly, then one might actually gain an understanding of their questions and what they were truly asking. Otherwise on what foundation is there any hope one might gain clarity as to what Jesus was actually saying in His answer to their specific questions. So, let’s look at a few scriptural references to determine the disciples’ awareness of the soon coming events and the reality of the Kingdom of God. John 13:36 - Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow Me now; but thou shalt follow Me afterwards. 37 Peter said unto Him, Lord, why cannot I follow Thee now? John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see Me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see Me, because I go to the Father. 17 Then said some of His disciples among themselves, What is this that He saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see Me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see Me: and, Because I go to the Father? 18 They said therefore, What is this that He saith, A little while? we cannot tell what He saith. 19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask Him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see Me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see Me? From the above verses we can see that neither Peter nor the other disciples had any awareness of the Lord’s soon coming death, let alone His resurrection. Certainly this was not due to the Lord’s failure to forewarn them. Rather, this apparent incognizant was due to the stronghold of their own selfish preconceived ideas of what was about to take place, as is evident in the following verses. John 2:19 - Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? Mark 8:31 - And He began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 And He spake that saying openly. And Peter took Him, and began to rebuke Him. Matthew 16:21- From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto His disciples, how that He must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22 Then Peter took Him, and began to rebuke Him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23 But He turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Matthew 20:17 - And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them, 18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn Him to death, 19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again. Mark 9: 31- For He taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill Him; and after that He is killed, He shall rise the third day. 32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask Him. 33 And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house He asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way? 34 But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest. Luke 9:43 - And they were all amazed at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, He said unto His disciples, 44 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. 45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask Him of that saying. 46 Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest. The disciples repeated failed to understand Jesus’s words to them that He was going to the cross to die. The whole concept was so foreign to what they thought was happening that they had actually argued amongst themselves who should be greatest in their preconceived ideas concerning what they believed Jesus was about to accomplish for the Jewish nation; which was that the Messiah was going to restore a physical kingdom, as was evident of the incredible praise that had erupted with the people on final His entrance into Jerusalem. Matthew 21:1 - And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples, 2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto Me. 3 And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them. 4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, 5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass. 6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them, 7 And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set Him thereon. 8 And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way. 9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest. 10 And when He was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this? 11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee. This grand entrance into the city has a tremendous impact on the disciples and everybody. This was the entrance of a King coming. Immediately after entering the city Jesus went straight to the temple and condemned the condition and practices of the then present religious system. However, neither the people nor the disciples understood what Jesus was saying regarding the Kingdom of God. They all thought it was the restoration of Israel and liberating from the Romans. Luke 13:18 - Then said He, Unto what is the Kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I resemble it? Luke 17:20 - And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Luke 19:11 - And as they heard these things, He added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. All these things together caused the disciples and others to believe Jesus was soon going to be the new King over Jerusalem. This perception was founded upon their misunderstanding of Old Testament prophesies concerning the Messiah and Jerusalem. It was also this perception that enable the religious leaders to compel Palate to have Jesus crucified and post upon the cross the title “King of the Jews.” The disciples had no clue Jesus was going to the cross and was going to die. When He did die, they were shaken, confused, and some even began to disperse. Therefore, after Jesus’s crucifixion and resurrection, we see in scripture how Jesus came and instructed His disciples as to what the scriptures He had quoted and preached from really meant that He might open their understanding of the Kingdom of God. Luke 24:13 - And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs. 14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened. 15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. 16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know Him. 17 And He said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? 18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days? 19 And He said unto them, What things? And they said unto Him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: 20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and have crucified Him. 21 But we trusted that it had been He which should have redeemed Israel [from Roman/Gentile rule] and beside all this, today is the third day since these things were done. 25 Then He said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into His glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself. Still forty days later after Jesus's resurrection and even up to just prior to His ascension, the disciples were still considerably clouded with their own carnal perception of what was going to happen to Jerusalem. They did not and could not fully understand it all until after the Holy Ghost would be given to them. John 14: 25 - These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved Me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for My Father is greater than I. 29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe. John 16:4 - But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you. 5 But now I go My way to Him that sent Me; and none of you asketh Me, Whither goest thou? 6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you. 12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. Acts 1:2 - Until the day in which He was taken up, after that He through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom He had chosen: 3 To whom also He shewed Himself alive after His passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith He, ye have heard of Me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of Him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? The importance of all these references is they establish the fact that the disciples had no idea or even the slightest comprehension at all concerning of a Second Coming of Christ for “they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear,” (Luke 19:11). So then just how could they be asking Jesus about His "second coming?" People only think that because that is what they've been taught and so that is what they see... Therefore, what was it they were really wanting to know when they asked the questions of Jesus, “Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” If we can figure that part out then we can begin to rightly divide Jesus’ answer to them. What we must remember that they asked the questions due to Jesus’ statement, “See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.” Therefore, the first part of the disciples’ question, “when shall these things be?” deals with the destruction of the Herodian Temple. This was accomplished in 70 A.D. when, as recorded in Josephus, War, book vii. c. 1, “Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the whole city and temple.” Now the disciples, knowing that Jesus was of God and a promoter of true religion, would certainly expect that if the Temple was going to be destroyed, as Jesus said, and if Jesus truly was going to be made “King of the Jews,” then the new King must be intending to put, as it were, “new wine [a system of religious worship] into new bottles [or a new temple].” Certainly none of this could not be accomplished under the present Roman/Herodian rule, Jesus must first come into power, hence the question, “What shall be the sign of thy coming?” The 3rd part of the disciples’ question, “Tell us, . . . what shall be the sign of the end of the world?” By their asking for a “sign of the end of the world,” they are referring to the end of this “age” of the existing governmental rule, the “the end of the world” as world then was. For if Jesus was going to be King, then Herod was going to have be replaced. But Herod was but one of a lineage of “Herods.” Therefore, if Herod was to be replace by Jesus as the new King, then the Government which put Herod into place would have to be overthrown as well, which was the Romans. Herod himself is shown to acknowledge their rule over him in the writings of Josephus, “I am now, by God’s will, your governor, and I have had peace a long time, and have gained great riches and large revenues, and, what is the principal filing of all, I am at amity with and well regarded by the Romans, who, if I may so say, are the rulers of the whole world.” (Josephus Wars book XV – chapter 11) Jesus answered the disciples’ questions exactly in the light in which they were asked. He did not ignore their ignorance as to what was about to happen and answer with something completely detached from their actual questions. For remember, the disciples had no idea or comprehension at all of a Second Coming of Christ for “they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear,” (Luke 19:11). All these things began to come to pass on that generation, exactly as Matthew 24:34 states. On 21/5/2016 at 11:37 AM, douggg said: As to your other question. What historian or commentator of any sort claims that Media-Persia, Greece, the four breakup kingdoms - is not a historical fact? I'm sorry Douggg, but why would you even ask me that question? Where has that even been part of our discussion? My point was simply you only know these things because of historians and commentators, because you stated to me "Perhaps you should consider that your reliance on commentators who lived not in the end times is misplaced." Yet you yourself are dependant on them for the very information which serves as a foundation for what you believe. On 21/5/2016 at 11:37 AM, douggg said: Josephus (100AD) did not live in the end times, by 2000 years. The conclusion of the entire vision in Daniel 8 did not take place in Josephus's day, nor before. The parts about the little horn are still forthcoming. Well, except for Josephus not living here with us today, the rest I would conclude to be no more than your own opinion which stands in direct oppositon to Josephus as an eyewitness of the end of the Nation of Israel in 70 AD. On 21/5/2016 at 11:37 AM, douggg said: I never said anyone lacked integrity. As far as bible prophecy interpretation, Adam Clarke was proven wrong on his notion of a day is a year, regardless if he doubted his own interpretation, and the base date and rationale to add his 1260 years to it get 2015. That is something that has been proven wrong. He was wrong on a number of his other interpretations as well. Adam Clarke certainly did not forsee the formation of the EU in the end times, over a hundred years after him. It is something that you believe has been proven wrong and have yet to even reasonably substantiate your persistent assertion beyond “Douggg says so.”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted May 22, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted May 22, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, BlindSeeker said: Well, the question was in relation to the past. But based upon your answer I assume it is safe to assume you weren't there to see all history unfold and are obligated like the rest of us to utilize the accounting of men that have gone before us as we endeavor to rightly divide the Word of Truth. Ok, let’s examine your submittal of Matthew 24:34 in the pure light of some scriptural reality… if you have the patience. .................................................... All these things began to come to pass on that generation, exactly as Matthew 24:34 states. Restate your case. but this time based on what Matthew 24:34 actually says. "fulfilled, not begin to come to pass" . All the events from Matthew 24:15-31, fullfilled. Didn't happen to Josephus's or Adam Clarke's generations. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 9, Daniel 11, Daniel 12, all conclude in the end times. Josephus and Adam Clarke did not live in the end times. The little horn is still forthcoming. He is not Antiochus IV. Edited May 22, 2016 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted May 22, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,041 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 426 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 22, 2016 1 hour ago, douggg said: Restate your case. but this time based on what Matthew 24:34 actually says. "fulfilled, not begin to come to pass" . All the events from Matthew 24:15-31, fullfilled. Didn't happen to Josephus's or Adam Clarke's generations. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 9, Daniel 11, Daniel 12, all conclude in the end times. Josephus and Adam Clarke did not live in the end times. The little horn is still forthcoming. He is not Antiochus IV. Ok. But it's going to take a little bit of time, so stick with me here Douggg. Let’s pick up where I left off in the chapter... Matthew 24:4 - And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Many we’re coming in the name of “Jesus,” but still preached as Paul warned “another Jesus, whom we have not preached, . . . another spirit, . . . another gospel.” Likewise, we have Jude warning the church with this admonition- Jude 1:3 - Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. These men were in the church of Jesus Christ, but were denying the tenants of the gospel and had turn the grace that saves one from their sin into lawlessness being antinomians. On the other hand, the legalistic crowd attempted to subvert the church of Galatia. Galatians 2:4 - And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. Even Peter address this- II Peter 2:1 - But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. As does John too- 1 John 4:1 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Now I know some people, perhaps you Douggg, don’t think it means people coming in Jesus Christ’s own name, professing they believe Him to be the Christ, but preaching “another Gospel” that is so corrupt that if presents “another Jesus” that is contrary to the Son of God because it is actually “another spirit.” Some believe it to be (contrary to Jesus’s own words) the coming of false Christs. Well that too happened, and even Paul was question if he was not a famous deceiver who had convinced many to follow him, howbeit they all died while the deceiver escaped. Acts 21:38 Art not thou that Egyptian, which before these days madest an uproar, and leddest out into the wilderness four thousand men that were murderers? But the false Christs are actually addressed by Jesus in verses 23, 24. Next Verse: Matthew 24:6 - And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. Ok, let’s look first at famines in that generation- Acts 7:11 - Now there came a dearth [Famine] over all the land of Egypt and Chanaan, and great affliction: and our fathers found no sustenance. Acts 11:28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth [Famine] throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. And Josephus’s accounts of famines- Josephus - Wars Book 4 -Chap. 1 - para. 9 - But of the people of Gamala, those that were of the bolder sort fled away and hid themselves, while the more infirm perished by famine; but the men of war sustained the siege till the two and twentieth day of the month Hyperberetmus . . . Josephus - Wars Book 4 -Chap. 3 - para. 3 - . . . the captains of these troops of [Jewish] robbers, being satiated with rapines in the country, got all together from all parts, and became a band of wickedness, and all together crept into Jerusalem, which was now become a city without a governor . . . besides the seditions they raised, were otherwise the direct cause of the city's destruction also; for as they were an unprofitable and a useless multitude, they spent those provisions beforehand [destroyed their own stored food] which might otherwise have been sufficient for the fighting men. Moreover, besides the bringing on of the war, they were the occasions of sedition and famine therein. Josephus - Wars book 4 -Chap. 6 - para. 9 - . . . as freed from such men as might hinder their designs, and plat some stop to their wickedness. Accordingly, they made no longer any delay, nor took any deliberation in their enormous practices, but made use of the shortest methods for all their executions and what they had once resolved upon, they put in practice sooner than any one could imagine. But their thirst was chiefly after the blood of valiant men, and men of good families; the one sort of which they destroyed out of envy, the other out of fear; for they thought their whole security lay in leaving no potent men alive . . . Nor did Niger of Peres escape their hands; he had been a man of great valor in their war with the Romans, but was now drawn through the middle of the city, and, as he went, he frequently cried out, and showed the scars of his wounds; and when he was drawn out of the gates, and despaired of his preservation, he besought them to grant him a burial; but as they had threatened him beforehand not to grant him any spot of earth for a grave, which he chiefly desired of them, so did they slay him [without permitting him to be buried]. Now when they were slaying him, he made this imprecation upon them, that they might undergo bothfamine and pestilence in this war, and besides all that, they might come to the mutual slaughter of one another; all which imprecations God confirmed against these impious men, and was what came most justly upon them, when not long afterward. they tasted of their own madness in their mutual seditions one against another. Josephus - Wars Book5 -Chap. 1 - para 4 - And now there were three treacherous factions in the city, the one parted from the other. Eleazar and his party, that kept the sacred first-fruits, came against John in their cups. Those that were with John plundered the populace, and went out with zeal against Simon. This Simon had his supply of provisions from the city, in opposition to the seditious. When, therefore, John was assaulted on both sides, he made his men turn about, throwing his darts upon those citizens that came up against him, from the cloisters he had in his possession, while he opposed those that attacked him from the temple by his engines of war. And if at any time he was freed from those that were above him, which happened frequently, from their being drunk and tired, he sallied out with a great number upon Simon and his party; and this he did always in such parts of the city as he could come at, till he set on fire those houses that were full of corn, and of all other provisions. The same thing was done by Simon, when, upon the other's retreat, he attacked the city also; as if they had, on purpose, done it to serve the Romans, by destroying what the city had laid up against the siege, and by thus cutting off the nerves of their own power. Accordingly, it so came to pass, that all the [storage] places that were about the temple were burnt down, and were become an intermediate desert space, ready for fighting on both sides of it; and that almost all that corn was burnt, which would have been sufficient for a siege of many years. So they were taken by the means of the famine, which it was impossible they should have been, unless they had thus prepared the way for it by this procedure. Josephus - Wars Book5 -Chap. 8 - para 2 - For God had blinded their minds for the transgressions they had been guilty of, nor could they see how much greater forces the Romans had than those that were now expelled, no more than they could discern how a famine was creeping upon them; for hitherto they had fed themselves out of the public miseries, and drank the blood of the city. But now poverty had for a long time seized upon the better part, and a great many had died already for want of necessaries Josephus - Wars Book5 -Chap. 9 - para 3 - For that the Romans are not unacquainted with that famine which is in the city, whereby the people are already consumed, and the fighting men will in a little time be so too . . . And though their fortifications should prove too strong for the Romans to break through them, yet would the famine fight for the Romans against them. Josephus - Wars Book5 -Chap. 10 - para 2, 3, 4,& 5 - 2. The madness of the seditious did also increase together with their famine, and both those miseries were every day inflamed more and more; for there was no corn which any where appeared publicly, but the robbers came running into, and searched men's private houses; and then, if they found any, they tormented them, because they had denied they had any; and if they found none, they tormented them worse, because they supposed they had more carefully concealed it 3. It was now a miserable case, and a sight that would justly bring tears into our eyes, how men stood as to their food, while the more powerful had more than enough, and the weaker were lamenting [for want of it.] But the famine was too hard for all other passions, and it is destructive to nothing so much as to modesty; for what was otherwise worthy of reverence was in this case despised; insomuch that children pulled the very morsels that their fathers were eating out of their very mouths, and what was still more to be pitied, so did the mothers do as to their infants; and when those that were most dear were perishing under their hands, they were not ashamed to take from them the very last drops that might preserve their lives: and while they ate after this manner, yet were they not concealed in so doing; but the seditious every where came upon them immediately, and snatched away from them what they had gotten from others; for when they saw any house shut up, this was to them a signal that the people within had gotten some food; whereupon they broke open the doors, and ran in, and took pieces of what they were eating almost up out of their very throats, and this by force: the old men, who held their food fast, were beaten; and if the women hid what they had within their hands, their hair was torn for so doing; nor was there any commiseration shown either to the aged or to the infants, but they lifted up children from the ground as they hung upon the morsels they had gotten, and shook them down upon the floor. But still they were more barbarously cruel to those that had prevented their coming in, and had actually swallowed down what they were going to seize upon, as if they had been unjustly defrauded of their right. They also invented terrible methods of torments to discover where any food was, and they were these to stop up the passages of the privy parts of the miserable wretches, and to drive sharp stakes up their fundaments; and a man was forced to bear what it is terrible even to hear, in order to make him confess that he had but one loaf of bread, or that he might discover a handful of barley-meal that was concealed; and this was done when these tormentors were not themselves hungry . . . 4. These were the afflictions which the lower sort of people suffered from these tyrants' guards; but for the men that were in dignity, and withal were rich, they were carried before the tyrants themselves; some of whom were falsely accused of laying treacherous plots, and so were destroyed; others of them were charged with designs of betraying the city to the Romans; but the readiest way of all was this, to suborn somebody to affirm that they were resolved to desert to the enemy. And he who was utterly despoiled of what he had by Simon was sent back again to John, as of those who had been already plundered by Jotre, Simon got what remained; insomuch that they drank the blood of the populace to one another, and divided the dead bodies of the poor creatures between them; so that although, on account of their ambition after dominion, they contended with each other, yet did they very well agree in their wicked practices; for he that did not communicate what he got by the miseries of others to the other tyrant seemed to be too little guilty, and in one respect only; and he that did not partake of what was so communicated to him grieved at this, as at the loss of what was a valuable thing, that he had no share in such barbarity. 5. It is therefore impossible to go distinctly over every instance of these men's iniquity. I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly: - That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world. Finally, they brought the Hebrew nation into contempt, that they might themselves appear comparatively less impious with regard to strangers. They confessed what was true, that they were the slaves, the scum, and the spurious and abortive offspring of our nation, while they overthrew the city themselves, and forced the Romans, whether they would or no, to gain a melancholy reputation, by acting gloriously against them, and did almost draw that fire upon the temple, which they seemed to think came too slowly; and indeed when they saw that temple burning from the upper city, they were neither troubled at it, nor did they shed any tears on that account, while yet these passions were discovered among the Romans themselves; which circumstances we shall speak of hereafter in their proper place, when we come to treat of such matters. Now the Earthquakes- Josephus - Wars book 4 -Chapter 4 - paragraph 5; And now did the Idumeans make an acclamation to what Simon had said; but Jesus went away sorrowful, as seeing that the Idumeans were against all moderate counsels, and that the city was besieged on both sides. Nor indeed were the minds of the Idumeans at rest; for they were in a rage at the injury that had been offered them by their exclusion out of the city; and when they thought the zealots had been strong, but saw nothing of theirs to support them, they were in doubt about the matter, and many of them repented that they had come thither. But the shame that would attend them in case they returned without doing any thing at all, so far overcame that their repentance, that they lay all night before the wall, though in a very bad encampment; for there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming. Next Verse: Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows [birthpangs]. Cross reference: I Thess. 5:1 - But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (Note: “travail” is the same greek word as “sorrows” above) Josephus WARS Book 6 - Chap 5 - para 3 - Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, A VOICE FROM THE FOUR WINDS, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" Dougggg, please note, the above Josephus account actually goes with verse 31 as well, but we’ll address it later. Next Verse: Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. Hardly seems necessary to address this one does it Douggg, for we both know that this generation was full of persecution, just look ad Saul/Paul. But here’s one verse for the road… Hebrews 10: 32 - But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; 33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. Next Verse: Matthew 24:11 - And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Cross reference: Acts 8:9 - But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: 10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. 11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries. Next Verse: Matthew 24:12 - and because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. Cross references: Galatians 1: 6 - I marvel that ye are so soon removed from Him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: II Timothy 1:15 - This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. II Timothy 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. II Timothy 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge. Next Verse: Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. I know you’ll love this one Douggg…. Adam Clarke's Commentary: Verse 13. But he that shall endure] The persecutions that shall come-unto the end; to the destruction of the Jewish polity, without growing cold or apostatizing-shall be saved, shall be delivered in all imminent dangers, and have his soul at last brought to an eternal glory. It is very remarkable that not a single Christian perished in the destruction of Jerusalem, though there were many there when Cestius Gallus invested the city; and, had he persevered in the siege, he would soon have rendered himself master of it; but, when he unexpectedly and unaccountably raised the siege, the Christians took that opportunity to escape. See Eusebius, Hist. Eccles lib. iii. c. 5 Cross references: I Thess. 5:6 - Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath [the coming destruction of Jerusalem], but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Hebrews 10:35 - Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise [God hath not appointed us to wrath - I Thess. 5:9] 37 For yet a little while, and he [Titus the Roman general] that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. Next Verse: Matthew 24: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Cross references: “preached in all the world” Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. Col. 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister. Cross references: “for a witness unto all nations” Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. Acts 13:40 - Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you. Paul was quoting Habakkuk who warned the Jews that Jerusalem and the Temple was going to be destroyed by the Chaldeans, except this time it was going to be the fourth beast, Rome. Habakkuk 1:5 - Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you. 6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs. TO BE CONTINUED>>>> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted May 22, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,041 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 426 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 22, 2016 Here's the rest Douggg, all the way up to verse 39. Next Verse: Matthew 24: 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) This one you’re not going to like Douggg because ole’ Josephus, well… you have your reasons… Josephus - Wars Book 5 -Chap.1 - para. 1 - Now as to the attack the zealots made upon the people, and which I esteem the beginning of the city's destruction, it hath been already explained after an accurate manner; as also whence it arose, and to how great a mischief it was increased. But for the present sedition, one should not mistake if he called it a sedition begotten by another sedition, and to be like a wild beast grown mad, which, for want of food from abroad, fell now upon eating its own flesh. para. 3 - . . . slew moreover many of the priests, as they were about their sacred ministrations. For notwithstanding these men were mad with all sorts of impiety, yet did they still admit those that desired to offer their sacrifices, although they took care to search the people of their own country beforehand, and both suspected and watched them; while they were not so much afraid of strangers, who, although they had gotten leave of them, how cruel soever they were, to come into that court, were yet often destroyed by this sedition; for those darts that were thrown by the engines came with that force, that they went over all the buildings, and reached as far as the altar, and the temple itself, and fell upon the priests, and those that were about the sacred offices; insomuch that many persons who came thither with great zeal from the ends of the earth, to offer sacrifices at this celebrated place, which was esteemed holy by all mankind, fell down before their own sacrifices themselves, and sprinkled that altar which was venerable among all men, both Greeks and Barbarians, with their own blood; till the dead bodies of strangers were mingled together with those of their own country, and those of profane persons with those of the priests, and the blood of all sorts of dead carcasses stood in lakes in the holy courts themselves. And now, "O must wretched city, what misery so great as this didst thou suffer from the Romans, when they came to purify thee from thy intestine hatred! 'For thou couldst be no longer a place fit for God, nor couldst thou long continue in being, after thou hadst been a sepulcher for the bodies of thy own people, and hadst made the holy house itself a burying-place in this civil war of thine. Yet mayst thou again grow better, if perchance thou wilt hereafter appease the anger of that God who is the author of thy destruction." But I must restrain myself from these passions by the rules of history, since this is not a proper time for domestical lamentations, but for historical narrations; I therefore return to the operations that follow in this sedition. Cross references: Luke 13:1 - There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Josephus - Wars Book 5 -Chap.1 - para. 5 - They agreed in nothing but this, to kill those that were innocent. The noise also of those that were fighting was incessant, both by day and by night; but the lamentations of those that mourned exceeded the other; nor was there ever any occasion for them to leave off their lamentations, because their calamities came perpetually one upon another, although the deep consternation they were in prevented their outward wailing; but being constrained by their fear to conceal their inward passions, they were inwardly tormented, without daring to open their lips in groans. Nor was any regard paid to those that were still alive, by their relations; nor was there any care taken of burial for those that were dead; the occasion of both which was this, that every one despaired of himself; for those that were not among the seditious had no great desires of any thing, as expecting for certain that they should very soon be destroyed; but for the seditious themselves, they fought against each other, while they trod upon the dead bodies as they lay heaped one upon another, and taking up a mad rage from those dead bodies that were under their feet, became the fiercer thereupon. They, moreover, were still inventing somewhat or other that was pernicious against themselves; and when they had resolved upon any thing, they executed it without mercy, and omitted no method of torment or of barbarity. Josephus - Wars Book 6 -Chap.2 - para. 1 - And WHO IS THERE THAT DOES NOT KNOW what the writings of the ancient prophets contain in them, - and particularly that oracle which is just now going to be fulfilled upon this miserable city? For they foretold that this city should be then taken when somebody shall begin the slaughter of his own countrymen. And are not both the city and the entire temple now full of the dead bodies of your countrymen? It is God, therefore, it is God himself who is bringing on this fire, to purge that city and temple by means of the Romans, and is going to pluck up this city, which is full of your pollutions." Next Verse: Matthew 24: 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: From Wikipedia The fourth-century church fathers Eusebius and Epiphanius of Salamis cite a tradition that before the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 the Jerusalem Christians had been miraculously warned to flee to Pella (Tabaquat Fahil) in the region of the Decapolis across the Jordan River. Ancient sources The people of the Church in Jerusalem were commanded by an oracle given by revelation before the war to those in the city who were worthy of it to depart and dwell in one of the cities of Perea which they called Pella. To it those who believed on Christ traveled from Jerusalem, so that when holy men had altogether deserted the royal capital of the Jews and the whole land of Judaea…"- — Eusebius, Church History 3, 5, 3 This heresy of the Nazoraeans exists in Beroea in the neighbourhood of Coele Syria and the Decapolis in the region of Pella and in Basanitis in the so-called Kokaba (Chochabe in Hebrew). From there it took its beginning after the exodus from Jerusalem when all the disciples went to live in Pella because Christ had told them to leave Jerusalem and to go away since it would undergo a siege. Because of this advice they lived in Perea after having moved to that place, as I said." - — Epiphanius, Panarion 29,7,7-8 For after all those who believed in Christ had generally come to live in Perea, in a city called Pella of the Decapolis of which it is written in the Gospel that it is situated in the neighbourhood of the region of Batanaea and Basanitis, Ebion's preaching originated here after they had moved to this place and had lived there."- — Epiphanius, Panarion 30, 2, 7 So Aquila, while he was in Jerusalem, also saw the disciples of the disciples of the apostles flourishing in the faith and working great signs, healings, and other miracles. For they were such as had come back from the city of Pella to Jerusalem and were living there and teaching. For when the city was about to be taken and destroyed by the Romans, it was revealed in advance to all the disciples by an angel of God that they should remove from the city, as it was going to be completely destroyed. They sojourned as emigrants in Pella, the city above mentioned in Transjordania. And this city is said to be of the Decapolis."— Epiphanius, On Weights and Measures 15 Next Verses: Matthew 24: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. Not really anything to expound upon Douggg… So, Next Verse: Matthew 24: 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! If all this doesn’t break your heart, nothing will. But first recognize how this was prophecied in the Law of Moses… Cross references: Deut. 28:53 - And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee: Deut. 28:55 - So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates. Deut. 28:57 - And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates. Josephus - Wars Book 6 -Chap.3 - para. 3,4,& 5 - 3. Now of those that perished by famine in the city, the number was prodigious, and the miseries they underwent were unspeakable; for if so much as the shadow of any kind of food did any where appear, a war was commenced presently, and the dearest friends fell a fighting one with another about it, snatching from each other the most miserable supports of life. Nor would men believe that those who were dying had no food, but the robbers would search them when they were expiring, lest any one should have concealed food in their bosoms, and counterfeited dying; nay, these robbers gaped for want, and ran about stumbling and staggering along like mad dogs, and reeling against the doors of the houses like drunken men; they would also, in the great distress they were in, rush into the very same houses two or three times in one and the same day. Moreover, their hunger was so intolerable, that it obliged them to chew every thing, while they gathered such things as the most sordid animals would not touch, and endured to eat them; nor did they at length abstain from girdles and shoes; and the very leather which belonged to their shields they pulled off and gnawed: the very wisps of old hay became food to some; and some gathered up fibres, and sold a very small weight of them for four Attic [drachmae]. But why do I describe the shameless impudence that the famine brought on men in their eating inanimate things, while I am going to relate A MATTER OF FACT, the like to which no history relates, either among the Greeks or Barbarians . . . 4. There was a certain woman that dwelt beyond Jordan, her name was Mary; her father was Eleazar, of the village Bethezob, which signifies the house of Hyssop. She was eminent for her family and her wealth, and had fled away to Jerusalem with the rest of the multitude, and was with them besieged therein at this time. The other effects of this woman had been already seized upon, such I mean as she had brought with her out of Perea, and removed to the city. What she had treasured up besides, as also what food she had contrived to save, had been also carried off by the rapacious guards, who came every day running into her house for that purpose. This put the poor woman into a very great passion, and by the frequent reproaches and imprecations she east at these rapacious villains, she had provoked them to anger against her; but none of them, either out of the indignation she had raised against herself, or out of commiseration of her case, would take away her life; and if she found any food, she perceived her labors were for others, and not for herself; and it was now become impossible for her any way to find any more food, while the famine pierced through her very bowels and marrow, when also her passion was fired to a degree beyond the famine itself; nor did she consult with any thing but with her passion and the necessity she was in. She then attempted a most unnatural thing; and snatching up her son, who was a child SUCKING AT HER BREAST, she said, "O thou miserable infant! for whom shall I preserve thee in this war, this famine, and this sedition? As to the war with the Romans, if they preserve our lives, we must be slaves. This famine also will destroy us, even before that slavery comes upon us. Yet are these seditious rogues more terrible than both the other.Come on; be thou my food, and be thou a fury to these seditious varlets, and a by-word to the world, which is all that is now wanting to complete the calamities of us Jews." As soon as she had said this, she slew her son, and then roasted him, and eat the one half of him, and kept the other half by her concealed. Upon this the seditious came in presently, and smelling the horrid scent of this food, they threatened her that they would cut her throat immediately if she did not show them what food she had gotten ready. She replied that she had saved a very fine portion of it for them, and withal uncovered what was left of her son. Hereupon they were seized with a horror and amazement of mind, and stood astonished at the sight, when she said to them, "This is mine own son, and what hath been done was mine own doing! Come, eat of this food; for I have eaten of it myself! Do not you pretend to be either more tender than a woman, or more compassionate than a mother; but if you be so scrupulous, and do abominate this my sacrifice, as I have eaten the one half, let the rest be reserved for me also." After which those men went out trembling, being never so much aftrighted at any thing as they were at this, and with some difficulty they left the rest of that meat to the mother. Upon which the whole city was full of this horrid action immediately; and while every body laid this miserable case before their own eyes, they trembled, as if this unheard of action had been done by themselves. So those that were thus distressed by the famine were very desirous to die, and those already dead were esteemed happy, because they had not lived long enough either to hear or to see such miseries. 5. This sad instance was quickly told to the Romans, some of whom could not believe it, and others pitied the distress which the Jews were under; but there were many of them who were hereby induced to a more bitter hatred than ordinary against our nation. But for Caesar, he excused himself before God as to this matter, and said that he had proposed peace and liberty to the Jews, as well as an oblivion of all their former insolent practices; but that they, instead of concord, had chosen sedition; instead of peace, war; and before satiety and abundance, a famine. That they had begun with their own hands to burn down that temple which we have preserved hitherto; and that therefore they deserved to eat such food as this was. That, however, this horrid action of eating an own child ought to be covered with the overthrow of their very country itself, and men ought not to leave such a city upon the habitable earth to be seen by the sun, wherein mothers are thus fed, although such food be fitter for the fathers than for the mothers to eat of, since it is they that continue still in a state of war against us, after they have undergone such miseries as these. And at the same time that he said this, he reflected on the desperate condition these men must be in; nor could he expect that such men could be recovered to sobriety of mind, after they had endured those very sufferings, for the avoiding whereof it only was probable they might have repented. Next Verse: Matthew 24: 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: This is really simple to understand, since the gates of Jerusalem were closed on the Sabbath, and winter travel would be harsher, making one want to go and gather extra clothes out of his house. Cross references: Nehemiah 13:18 - Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the sabbath. 19 And it came to pass, that when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath, I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the sabbath: and some of my servants set I at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the sabbath day. 20 So the merchants and sellers of all kind of ware lodged without Jerusalem once or twice. 21 Then I testified against them, and said unto them, Why lodge ye about the wall? if ye do so again, I will lay hands on you. From that time forth came they no more on the sabbath. Next Verses: Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. I know this is a favourite end times hell on earth verse for many, but it does have its application to 70AD. Some we have already seen in dealing with famine, and some already covered in verse 19. But here’s a few more historical point that are noteworthy. Josephus - Wars Book 5 -Chap. 10 - para 5 - WHAT INTOLERABLE THINGS THOSE THAT STAYED BEHIND SUFFERED. . . 5. It is therefore impossible to go distinctly over every instance of these men's iniquity. I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly: - That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world. Josephus - Wars Book 6 -Chap. 9 - para 1 - Now when Titus was come into this [upper] city, he admired not only some other places of strength in it, but particularly those strong towers which the tyrants in their mad conduct had relinquished; for when he saw their solid altitude, and the largeness of their several stones, and the exactness of their joints, as also how great was their breadth, and how extensive their length, he expressed himself after the manner following: "We have certainly had God for our assistant in this war, and it was no other than God who ejected the Jews out of these fortifications; for what could the hands of men or any machines do towards overthrowing these towers?" – Next Verse: Matthew 24: 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Josephus WAR- Book 2 - Chap. 13; But there was an Egyptian false prophet that did the Jews more mischief than the former; for he was a cheat, and pretended to be a prophet also, and got together thirty thousand men that were deluded by him; these he led round about from the wilderness to the mount which was called the Mount of Olives, and was ready to break into Jerusalem by force from that place; and if he could but once conquer the Roman garrison and the people, he intended to domineer over them by the assistance of those guards of his that were to break into the city with him. But Felix prevented his attempt, and met him with his Roman soldiers, while all the people assisted him in his attack upon them, insomuch that when it came to a battle, the Egyptian ran away, with a few others, while the greatest part of those that were with him were either destroyed or taken alive; but the rest of the multitude were dispersed every one to their own homes, and there concealed themselves. Cross references: Acts21:38 Art not thou that Egyptian, which before these days madest an uproar, and leddest out into the wilderness four thousand men that were murderers? More Josephus on false prophets. Josephus WAR Book 6- Chap 5 - para 2; And now the Romans, judging that it was in vain to spare what was round about the holy house, burnt all those places, as also the remains of the cloisters and the gates, two excepted; the one on the east side, and the other on the south; both which, however, they burnt afterward. They also burnt down the treasury chambers, in which was an immense quantity of money, and an immense number of garments, and other precious goods there reposited; and, to speak all in a few words, there it was that the entire riches of the Jews were heaped up together, while the rich people had there built themselves chambers [to contain such furniture]. The soldiers also came to the rest of the cloisters that were in the outer [court of the] temple, whither the women and children, and a great mixed multitude of the people, fled, in number about six thousand. But before Caesar had determined any thing about these people, or given the commanders any orders relating to them, the soldiers were in such a rage, that they set that cloister on fire; by which means it came to pass that some of these were destroyed by throwing themselves down headlong, and some were burnt in the cloisters themselves. Nor did any one of them escape with his life. A false prophet was the occasion of these people's destruction, who had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance. Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes. Now a man that is in adversity does easily comply with such promises; for when such a seducer makes him believe that he shall be delivered from those miseries which oppress him, then it is that the patient is full of hopes of such his deliverance. Josephus WARS Book 6 Chap. 6 - para 2 & 3 - Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes. Now a man that is in adversity does easily comply with such promises; for when such a seducer makes him believe that he shall be delivered from those miseries which oppress him, then it is that the patient is full of hopes of such his deliverance. 3. Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Next Verse: Matthew 24: 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Cross reference: Deut. 28:49 The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand; Josephus - Wars Book 6 -Chap.2 - para. 1 - NOW, as Titus was upon his march into the enemy's country, the auxiliaries that were sent by the kings marched first, having all the other auxiliaries with them; after whom followed those that were to prepare the roads and measure out the camp; then came the commander's baggage, and after that the other soldiers, who were completely armed to support them; then came Titus himself, having with him another select body; and then came the pikemen; after whom came the horse belonging to that legion. All these came before the engines; and after these engines came the tribunes and the leaders of the cohorts, with their select bodies; after these came the ensigns, with THE EAGLE; and before those ensigns came the trumpeters belonging to them; next these came the main body of the army in their ranks, every rank being six deep; the servants belonging to every legion came after these; and before these last their baggage; the mercenaries came last, and those that guarded them brought up the rear. I know Douggg I didn’t touch on “the coming of the Son of Man,”but we do in the next verse. Next Verse: Matthew 24: 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. I must admit I find this account fascinating. Josephus WARS Book 6 Chap. 6 - para 3 - 3. Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." Next Verse: Matthew 24:31 - And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Josephus WARS Book 6 - Chap 5 - para 3 - Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, A VOICE FROM THE FOUR WINDS, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost. Next verses: Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Now, I really don’t expect to move you in the slightest Douggg. However, there was the account of Josephus that some saw “before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds.” That goes with what Jesus said to those of that generation, you know the one mentioned in verse 34 above? Let’s look at what the Lord Jesus said and you decide if what Josephus recorded others had witnessed doesn’t fit. Matthew 26:62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? 63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. So Douggg, did Jesus tell that particular high priest, a man of that generation, that he himself would “see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven?” Because verse 34 is tucked right there in between verses 30 and 39 which both speak of His coming in the clouds… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted May 22, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,041 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 426 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 22, 2016 BTW Douggg, this is my own study and I had posted much of this several years ago here on WB. I simply went through it all and gleaned what was pertinent to our discourse and made a few extra notes. However, much of my old stuff here doesn't seem to be accessable anymore... I would also recommend reading through Josephus at least once if you haven't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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