pre trib rapture is fake true or false

[Montana Marv]

4 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Let's look a little more closely at the actual context and not the presumed context.

• Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.  At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.  Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.  Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.  But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.  Matthew 24:9-13

Jesus is talking about the great tribulation when people are hated and killed because of His name.

Are you saying that Israel is going to be hated because of the name of Jesus?  If so, scriptures?

Whose kingdom is to be established. The Davidic Kingdom. Who is asking the question. Jews

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

Who is asking the question. Jews

Jewish believers, disciples of Christ.  This is where dispensationalism blinds you.

[Montana Marv]

58 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Jewish believers, disciples of Christ.  This is where dispensationalism blinds you.

So are those under the altar saints. They never made it to the end. So then they are not saved.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

So are those under the altar saints. They never made it to the end. So then they are not saved.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I think we have different understandings of "enduring to the end."  I'm guessing that you are referring to this passage:

• When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained.   Revelation 6:9

They maintained their testimony to the end, and it cost them their lives.  Enduring to the end means remaining faithful to the word of God regardless of the cost.  It's not a physical enduring, its spiritual faithfulness.  The fifth seal speaks of a time of martyrdom and aligns with the passage of Matthew I quoted earlier.

[Serving]

On Monday, 11 April 2016 at 5:00 AM, Paradigm said:

Serving, you might want to slow down and go back and read what I wrote and what I didn't write. My words speak for themselves. It seems that your responses are to things for the most part that I did not write. I could take the time to try to clarify and explain more, but I don't know that it would be all that fruitful at this point. 

Huh?? You said, "My words speak for themselves" .. okay .. then let's hear them again shall we :

Quote

Most Christians read something about a last trump and naturally assume that the last trump must be the last trump. Most assume that it is the 7th trumpet of Revelation. Again, we have to pause and ask some questions.

Want to clarify your position then?

Do you believe that the last trump is the 7th trump of revelation ? .. Yes/No.

Cheers.

[SINNERSAVED]

4 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I think we have different understandings of "enduring to the end."  I'm guessing that you are referring to this passage:

• When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained.   Revelation 6:9

They maintained their testimony to the end, and it cost them their lives.  Enduring to the end means remaining faithful to the word of God regardless of the cost.  It's not a physical enduring, its spiritual faithfulness.  The fifth seal speaks of a time of martyrdom and aligns with the passage of Matthew I quoted earlier.

Well said Last Daze ,. and I see it that way also  for the word is through out the bible and all over revelation, it is said that He that endures until the end shall be saved, for a few reasons one is that when the times get hard and your life is at stake, many will run, for they lost there belief and want to save them selves, and so enduring until the end is a physical endurance until the end mind body and soul, for the times will get hard and ugly and you will have to make a choice,

 second is that, if we do not endure, that means we were never born again believers, and we were fake, and called our selves believers when we were not and times got tough and then we bail out ?

 so you are correct, and this comes down to following the words and commandments and to endure until the end ,

this is the testing of your faith , and many do not think they get tested, as believers but we will, and we become a witness to the world also as the bond servants of the Lord, so many of us do not even realize that we do not all serve the same God, and for the one in the bible I serve, and many have in there minds what type of God they will serve, and its not biblical ? and does not follow what is said or commanded ,  but we must follow in the spirit and truth , and with all that we are , and we will know that God is God, and we are not ?

blessings brother, spiritual will drive the physical to endure, faith  ,and belief in the Son of God.....Amen

[Last Daze]

8 minutes ago, SINNERSAVED said:

Well said Last Daze ,. and I see it that way also  for the word is through out the bible and all over revelation, it is said that He that endures until the end shall be saved, for a few reasons one is that when the times get hard and your life is at stake, many will run, for they lost there belief and want to save them selves, and so enduring until the end is a physical endurance until the end mind body and soul, for the times will get hard and ugly and you will have to make a choice

Yes, Jesus also gave us an example of not enduring in that same passage:

• Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.  At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.  Matthew 24:9-10

Many, when faced with the "worship or die" ultimatum will fall away.  This is the apostasy associated with the revealing of the man of sin.

[Paradigm]

26 minutes ago, Serving said:

Huh?? You said, "My words speak for themselves" .. okay .. then let's hear them again shall we :

Want to clarify your position then?

Do you believe that the last trump is the 7th trump of revelation ? .. Yes/No.

Cheers.

No, I do not think that the 7th trumpet of Revelation is that same as the "last trump" mentioned in 1 Cor 15. 

The passages that I posted were to illustrate the many reasons and times that trumpets are blown. 

As I said, it is important that we understand the scriptures through the Hebrew background in which they are set. Otherwise we are likely to see many passages through an inherited paradigm or simply see them in a way that makes sense in the 21st Century.

I'll give an example:

If I were to make a statement such as "You should have been there." We were just sitting there eating homemade ice cream and watching the fireworks when all of the sudden...."

Because you are familiar with the customs of this culture, you know immediately that the 4th of July is being referenced. Someone from outside of our time and culture would not know that unless they had studied about our own time and culture.

I'll ask another question as an example, and people can answer this if they want:

Before Y'shua was crucified, he had a conversation with Peter. Peter felt confident that he would never deny Y'shua. However, Y'shua told him that before something happened twice, Peter would have denied him three times. 

What was it that Peter heard and what was the significance of that sound? 

Edited April 13, 2016 by Paradigm

[SINNERSAVED]

8 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Yes, Jesus also gave us an example of not enduring in that same passage:

• Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.  At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.  Matthew 24:9-10

Many, when faced with the "worship or die" ultimatum will fall away.  This is the apostasy associated with the revealing of the man of sin.

yes it is both , and so we all start with God, but who follows the narrow way , and who is the gate on the narrow way , but Jesus

 if we are not going thorough him then we are not on the straight and narrow, and we detour to the wide and the broad way,

 we must choose whom we will serve, God  or the world , lose our lives for Him, or deny him, ?

 Jesus came with another scripture on this, and He said, that those that deny me , I will also deny Him, so we are warned.,

 but will anyone heed to these warnings, ? thank you brother blessings and shalom

[Serving]

1 hour ago, Paradigm said:

No, I do not think that the 7th trumpet of Revelation is that same as the "last trump" mentioned in 1 Cor 15.

Okay, thanks for clarifying.

Quote

The passages that I posted were to illustrate the many reasons and times that trumpets are blown.

 

I understand that, but as I pointed out, none of those examples were relevant to the same context that "last trump" is used in and self defined within the verse in question.

Just because we have examples of trumpets being used throughout the scriptures in no way makes them related to the last trump, it is important we understand context which is not the same as the method you were using which was lumping all examples of trumpet usage together by "association" ..  and that is incorrect usage because "last trump" is not bound by mere "association", no, "last trump" is instead DEFINED and "free standing" which is NOT by "association" which is what your examples were, seeing they had no relation to the "last trump" as defined by the verse it appears in.

Quote

As I said, it is important that we understand the scriptures through the Hebrew background in which they are set. Otherwise we are likely to see many passages through an inherited paradigm or simply see them in a way that makes sense in the 21st Century.

I'll give an example:

If I were to make a statement such as "You should have been there." We were just sitting there eating homemade ice cream and watching the fireworks when all of the sudden...."

Because you are familiar with the customs of this culture, you know immediately that the 4th of July is being referenced. Someone from outside of our time and culture would not know that unless they had studied about our own time and culture.

I'll ask another question as an example, and people can answer this if they want:

Before Y'shua was crucified, he had a conversation with Peter. Peter felt confident that he would never deny Y'shua. However, Y'shua told him that before something happened twice, Peter would have denied him three times.

What was it that Peter heard and what was the significance of that sound? 

 

Hold it a minute, lets just cut to the chase and why don't you just tell me WHEN you believe the "last trump" sounds since I have already made my position crystal clear?

I am not asking for a sermon, I am merely asking for YOUR placement of "last trump" within the scriptures and within your understanding of the matter if you'd please.

Cheers.