pre trib rapture is fake true or false

[Paradigm]

48 minutes ago, Serving said:

I understand that, but as I pointed out, none of those examples were relevant to the same context that "last trump" is used in and self defined within the verse in question.

Just because we have examples of trumpets being used throughout the scriptures in no way makes them related to the last trump, it is important we understand context which is not the same as the method you were using which was lumping all examples of trumpet usage together by "association" ..  and that is incorrect usage because "last trump" is not bound by mere "association", no, "last trump" is instead DEFINED and "free standing" which is NOT by "association" which is what your examples were, seeing they had no relation to the "last trump" as defined by the verse it appears in.

This is a large part of the point that I keep trying to make. We cannot divorce the concepts in the NT including the "last trumpet" from the context of the Tanakh or the Hebrew culture. My examples were intended to shed light on that error of thinking. In order to understand any trumpet, we have to understand their purposes and when and how they were sounded. Until you realize this, there is probably no point in proceeding. 

We see that the Tabernacle was designed according to a pattern of heavenly things. Likewise David received all of the plans for the temple including the way the services would be done by the Spirit. 

! Chronicles 28:11-13

¹¹ Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat,

¹² And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the Lord, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things:

¹³ Also for the courses of the priests and the Levites, and for all the work of the service of the house of the Lord, and for all the vessels of service in the house of the Lord.

 

We have to realize that the end has been declared from the beginning and there is nothing new under the sun. Paul and the other writers were of a Hebrew mindset. Until this is realized, many of these subjects such as the last trump, great trump, etc will not be understood. When we think that the NT was written in a vacuum with all new concepts with no foundation, we are left with no choice but to lean completely into our own understanding or that of other's that we have been conditioned by.

In the past, I would have just given you plain answers on many of these topics. Now, I try to be more discerning and discriminating in what information I make known and allow people think whatever they will. I choose to give you all the space in the world to continue to believe whatever you believe. 

 

[Serving]

12 minutes ago, Paradigm said:

This is a large part of the point that I keep trying to make. We cannot divorce the concepts in the NT including the "last trumpet" from the context of the Tanakh or the Hebrew culture. My examples were intended to shed light on that error of thinking. In order to understand any trumpet, we have to understand their purposes and when and how they were sounded. Until you realize this, there is probably no point in proceeding. 

We see that the Tabernacle was designed according to a pattern of heavenly things. Likewise David received all of the plans for the temple including the way the services would be done by the Spirit. 

! Chronicles 28:11-13

¹¹ Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat,

¹² And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the Lord, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things:

¹³ Also for the courses of the priests and the Levites, and for all the work of the service of the house of the Lord, and for all the vessels of service in the house of the Lord.

 

We have to realize that the end has been declared from the beginning and there is nothing new under the sun. Paul and the other writers were of a Hebrew mindset. Until this is realized, many of these subjects such as the last trump, great trump, etc will not be understood. When we think that the NT was written in a vacuum with all new concepts with no foundation, we are left with no choice but to lean completely into our own understanding or that of other's that we have been conditioned by.

In the past, I would have just given you plain answers on many of these topics. Now, I try to be more discerning and discriminating in what information I make known and allow people think whatever they will. I choose to give you all the space in the world to continue to believe whatever you believe.

 

Look, don't go getting yourself confused with the Old and the New Testaments okay? Do NOT try mixing them as though the COVENANTS are the SAME, they are NOT the same .. one was merely the SHADOW of what was to come, it was not the gospels at all.

Understand this:

Hebrews 8

1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

 

Anyway, here is the "WHEN" concerning the last trump which you seem unable to answer :

1 Corinthians 15: 51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So the last trump sounds right before the RESURRECTION of the saints .. see, not so mysterious after all huh?

Now all you have to do is work out WHICH trumpet(s) sounded BEFORE that "last trump" heralded the resurrection .. leave it with you.

Cheers.

 

[Montana Marv]

The final last Trumpet Resurrection for the Just is Post Mill.  How else will all those born during the Mill who are Just receive their immortal bodies.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

The final last Trumpet Resurrection for the Just is Post Mill.  How else will all those born during the Mill who are Just receive their immortal bodies.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Please provide the scriptures that indicate that the resurrection which happens after the 1000 year reign of Christ happens at the sound of a trumpet.

[Montana Marv]

24 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Please provide the scriptures that indicate that the resurrection which happens after the 1000 year reign of Christ happens at the sound of a trumpet.

A Resurrection will happen after the 1000 years.  We see different  First Resurrections. 1st the Church, I Thes 4:13 - Brothers (fellow Christians) we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep...  v15 - According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we (Christians) who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, we will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep (other Christians), those indwelt by the Holy Spirit.  We will rule with Christ

The 2nd of a First Resurrection is those of Israel.  Daniel 12:13 - As for you (Daniel), go your way till the end.  You will rest, and then at the end of days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.  So this is of Israel (promised allotted inheritance - The Land from the Euphrates to the Nile -Gen 15:18), They will be ruled over by Christ on King Davids Throne.

Now no other (of the Just) [before Israel was established] were given a promised part of the 1000 years, Only Israel and the Bride.  So when do they receive their part of the First Resurrected bodies - Post Mill.

Only the Bride and Only those of Israel have been given promise to the 1000 years.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Serving]

On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 at 8:10 AM, Paradigm said:

Revelation 1:4  John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 22:16  I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Again, it appears that it would be good to consider the way in which terms our now understood. Many people believe that "The Church" began on the Day of Pentecost in Acts. Never mind for time being that Pentecost is the Greek name for Shavuot (Feast of Weeks) and that is why they were all there that day.

"The Church" has been around for a long time. It can even be seen in places in English.

Acts 7:38  This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

If we take "church" back to the Greek ecclesia, we can then make some comparisons. The LXX or Septuagint is the Greek translation of the OT/Tanahk. The Hebrew word "kahal" is translated as "ecclesia." The same word "ecclesia" that is translated as "church" is throughout the LXX.

 

 

The church being spoken of during the days of Moses was the Word of God Himself .. after all , He is the Head .. don't confuse it with the TWO different DOCTRINES .. the CHURCH is the SAME, HE is the SAME .. it is only HIS Doctrine/Priesthood that has changed .. see Melchizedek who Himself is from EVERLASTING with NO BEGINNING and most revealingly .. NO END .. so where is He then?

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Not only was "the church" around in the Tanakh/OT, so was the gospel. It is not the 2,000 year old gospel, but the everlasting gospel.

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

This same everlasting gospel was preached unto Abraham.

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

 

Abraham was informed as to the RESULTS of the gospel, look : "and the SCRIPTURE, FORESEEING that God would justify the heathen through faith" (that is ONLY the RESULT of the gospel being expounded/confirmed unto Abraham) AND saying, "In thee shall all nations be blessed" (again, ONLY the RESULT was being expressed/expounded to Abraham) .. those things preached unto him were of the gospel, yes, BUT and again, they were only the RESULTS of the gospel being expounded/revealed, and the RESULTS of the gospel being preached to Abraham AND the prophets even, do NOT equal the details of the gospel itself (the DOCTRINE of Christ) being revealed unto him/them throughout the scriptures .. otherwise THIS would be broken :

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

ONLY when He first came was the doctrine of the gospel itself made known unto MANKIND.

Now temper that with this which thing applies to Abraham and the prophets too :

Matthew 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

See? Even though Abraham and the prophets were preached of the RESULTS of the gospel, they were not privy to the DOCTRINE itself, nor to see it with their own eyes in person .. they were only privy to the results of the gospel shown within their VISIONS and that which God told them .. that is, the details of the COVENANT which was HID until Christ APPEARED 2000 years ago was likewise hid unto Abraham & the prophets .. the details of the COVENANT itself they did not know, only the RESULTS .. which thing the below declaration likewise confirms but needs be read CAREFULLY and SLOWLY to truly appreciate : (I will start at .. say .. v7)

1 Peter 1:7-12

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Notice the SAME theme even in the above? They (By default, including Abraham) to whom it was previously revealed (in word and visions) by that Same Word Himself, only spoke of the RESULTS of that Words coming DOCTRINE and not the doctrine itself which was HID until That same Word Himself (who was in the wilderness with the children of Israel, being the church Himself, the Head) came some 2000 odd years ago.

Now concerning the everlasting gospel, this needs be considered :

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

How can that which is ready to vanish away be the eternal gospel?

Friend, it can not .. it is the church that is the same, that is eternal, that church which is the Word Himself who was with Israel in the wilderness, the HEAD .. not the covenants .. but the church spoken of being that Same Word .. and the Word is Christ .. not to be confused with the TWO covenants which did come from the SAME WORD, Christ, but are different covenants without a doubt .. meaning, the 1st covenant was NOT the gospel you have said it is.

And this matter is a HUGE difference to what you are currently saying.

 

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The gospel was also preached unto the Children of Israel.

Hebrews 4:1-2 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.² For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

 

The REST is a mystery in that it has TWO meanings .. do you know the difference between the two meanings ?

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Neither did the Messiah first come into existence 2.000 years ago. For Moses esteemed the reproach of Messiah greater than what Egypt had to offer. 

Hebrews 11:24-26  By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; ²⁵ Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; ²⁶ Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Not only Moses, but the prophets spoke by the "Spirit of Messiah."

1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

 

Moses spoke of Christ and understood that like himself, the Christ would be a law giver etc .. he also understood there was to be a recompence of reward for faithfulness .. but again, these things are not DETAILS of the new covenant, these things still fall under the umbrella of Moses understanding certain RESULTS of that coming doctrine .. see? Even the language in those verses speak of certain RESULTS of the doctrine being known but NOT the DETAILS of the doctrine which was HID from men until Christ came in the flesh.

The theme is consistent to what I am saying, take note of the language henceforth when reading other relative scriptures and you will see it too .. the SAME theme of an awareness concerning the RESULTS from the doctrine but NOT the doctrine itself.

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The Children of Israel were no stranger to the Messiah either:

1 Corinthains 10:1-9

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; ² And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

³ And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

⁴ And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

⁵ But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

⁶ Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

⁷ Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

⁸ Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

⁹ Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

 

You need acknowledge the KEY you have overlooked in verses 1&2 .. " baptized UNTO Moses" !!!!!!!!! That is, the Old Covenant and NOT the New & everlasting Covenant.

And LIKE MOSES .. that SAME spiritual meat was eaten (the 1st covenant) which is still the Word of God but of another doctrine/expression of that same Word which is not the same doctrine of Christ we have.

That SAME  spiritual drink being the SAME concept as above.

Again, Melchizedek holds the KEY to better understand this concept being imparted to us .. which is, SAME WORD, different expressions (doctrines/Priesthood) being offered/EATEN.

Not forgetting that those things were but EXMPLES (shadows) of what was TO COME (v6) .. but was HID unto them all except for the RESULTS which were known to those it was shown .. and, respectfully, that is NOT the same as what you are teaching

Regards.

[n2thelight]

On Monday, April 11, 2016 at 1:33 PM, enoob57 said:

Show me after chapter 4

REVELATION 12:17
17 And the dragon was angry with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[n2thelight]

The saints are mentioned in Chapter 5 and beyond.

SAINTS

Re 5:8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Re 8:3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.
Re 8:4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand.

Either the saints are in heaven praying, which makes no sense unless you are Roman Catholic, or they are on earth praying and their prayers are represented in heaven by incense. Jesus is the one who makes intercession for us. After we die we do not take His place in heaven to make intercession.

[n2thelight]

The Word “Church” in the Book of Revelation

December 15, 2011

Pretribulationism maintains that since the actual word “church” (ekklēsia) does not appear in chapters 4–21, but is mentioned many times before chapter 4, it is assumed then that the church will be raptured before the events of chapter 4. This is very bad argumentation that is made in popular books, but rejected even by scholarly pretribulationism. Nevertheless, it is often the popular arguments that are influential so I will address this here.

This form of argumentation is called the “word-concept” fallacy, an assumption that studying a word (or phrase) is the same as having studied the entire biblical concept. It is also known as the “concordance” method of interpretation: simply open up a concordance and finger down the page looking for usages of the word “church,” while excluding other terms that describe the church. It can be a beginning point for study, but word (or phrase) studies should certainly not end there. The problem with this method is that it does not take Scripture in a normal, natural, customary sense; hence, it is naive and completely ignores context. I will start with showing the absurdity of this argument by being absurd, followed by a few sensible responses.

First, it may be asked why would the mention of “church” occur at the beginning of Revelation, but not throughout the book? It is erroneous to think that a New Testament writer is required to mention the term “church” throughout his writings to establish the application to the church. Paul only mentioned the term “church” once in the first chapter of his epistle to the Galatians. Do not Galatians chapters 2–6 apply to the church? The same can be said of 2 Thessalonians; the term “church” is only mentioned in chapter one. And in Colossians, the term is mentioned in the first and last chapters of the book. Does not the body of the letter to the Colossians apply to the church? So this method consistently applied is senseless.

Second, the word “church” is absent from the books of Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. Does that mean those books do not pertain to the church? It is patently misguided to demand that the New Testament writers must only use the term “church” to discern if a passage applies to the church.

Third, the word “church” is absent from rapture passages: 1Thessalonians 4:13–17 and John 14:1–4. Following their logic, are we right to conclude that the church will not be raptured? Of course not!

Fourth, the word “church” is absent from the heavenly scenes in Revelation 4–5. But heaven is the one place we would expect to find the church where pretribulationism says it will be at that time (because of their allegorical interpretation that sees Revelation 4:1 representing the church being caught up). The word “church” is also absent from Revelation chapters 19–20. Will the church not participate in rejoicing in heaven and the marriage supper of the Lamb? Moreover, the Bride of Christ is found in Revelation 19:7 but the word “church” is never mentioned. Is the Bride then not the church? (cf. Rev 21:2!).

Fifth, nowhere in the book of Revelation does the use of the word “church” ever denote the Church in its totality nor in the sense of the faithful universal church. Every mention of church(es) in Revelation denotes historical local churches in first century Asia Minor. And Revelation is addressed to seven churches not just one, which explains why the term “church” is used frequently at the beginning of the book. (Incidentally, the apostle John in his gospel and epistles never used the term church in the sense of the universal church; instead, he exercised his literary freedom to employ other terms to denote believers who were part of the church.)

Sixth, who are the recipients of the book of Revelation? Revelation 1:1 says, “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants (doulos) what must happen very soon” (Rev 1:1). The term used is “servants” (doulos). It will be the servants within the professing church who will endure persecution for their faith. The message is for them: Revelation 22:6 says, “Then the angel said to me, ‘These words are reliable and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must happen soon’” (Rev 22:6). It is the servants/true believers/saints/the elect of God/those who hold to the testimony of Christ who will endure struggle and persecution and be ultimately victorious.

Seventh, the word “saints” is used 59 times in the New Testament to refer to a true believer in Christ, a member of the true church. For example, the apostle Paul, recalling his days when he persecuted the church, equates the church with saints (compare Phil 3:6 and Acts 26:10). Pretribulationism claims that the reference to saints in the book of Revelation is some special group of “tribulation saints.” This falsely creates a new class of Christians apart from the church. Pretribulationism would have us believe that the saints in Revelation 13:7, who are being persecuted by Antichrist, cannot be part of the church; but they fail to see that the saints who are described as the Bride of Christ in Revelation 19:8 are the church! This false distinction is indicative of a flawed theological system forcing itself upon Scripture to reach their preconceived conclusion.

 

http://www.alankurschner.com/2011/12/15/why-is-the-word-church-not-mentioned-in-revelation-4%e2%80%9321/

Try again

[Sister]

14 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

The final last Trumpet Resurrection for the Just is Post Mill.  How else will all those born during the Mill who are Just receive their immortal bodies.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Montana Marv

Please give one scripture that indicates a trumpet will be blown post Mill?