Qnts2 Posted March 25, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 25, 2016 3 hours ago, Retrobyter said: Shalom, Qnts2. I can understand what you are saying, but that would be true of the New Testament, as well. No one is saved by the NT alone either. G-D must justify an individual based on the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God, Yeshua`, His Son. However, you must also understand that we learn what we can know about G-D and His Son, Yeshua` the Messiah FROM both the NT AND the OT. And, you must understand that NO ONE is "saved" (justified by God) in any other way! Not by keeping the Law, not by doing good deeds, not by keeping the "Sacraments!" NO ONE EVER has been! Therefore, there is NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE OT AND THE NT! The only difference is that the OT looks forward to the Messiah's coming, while the NT looks back at the Messiah's coming. Therefore, to the one who was paying attention, the OT CAN provide life by pointing to the One who gives life, just as much as the NT does. The justification by G-D comes through Grace alone, by faith alone, by blood alone! But, no one know who the Messiah is, except by the NT. That is why Jesus sent his disciples out to preach the gospel, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile. Central to the Messianic prophesies in the OT, is the arrival of the Messiah. Without the NT, which is the witness that the Messiah has come, today, almost 2000 years later, we could not know that indeed Jesus is that Messiah. And that is all important. Because if Jesus is not the Messiah, then we are still waiting for the Messiah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrobyter Posted March 25, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,596 Content Per Day: 1.07 Reputation: 2,446 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/28/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/28/1957 Share Posted March 25, 2016 39 minutes ago, Qnts2 said: But, no one know who the Messiah is, except by the NT. That is why Jesus sent his disciples out to preach the gospel, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile. Central to the Messianic prophesies in the OT, is the arrival of the Messiah. Without the NT, which is the witness that the Messiah has come, today, almost 2000 years later, we could not know that indeed Jesus is that Messiah. And that is all important. Because if Jesus is not the Messiah, then we are still waiting for the Messiah. Shalom, Qnts2. Yes, I can agree with you on this point. You're absolutely right. That's why there IS a NT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted March 25, 2016 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.38 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 25, 2016 28 For he powerfully confuted the Jews publicly, proving through the Scriptures Yahshua to be the Messiah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted March 25, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted March 25, 2016 The identity of the Messiah can be determined by the OT alone through the Holy Spirit without need of the NT for the OT spoke of him. Not plainly, but in shadows, types, parables etc. The first time the gospel was preached was Genesis 3. Christ was, is and always will be needed in order to open the understanding that the scriptures can be known that a person might see the vast many places where salvation was shown to be in Christ and Christ alone. The whole NT comes out of the OT. Yes, in order for something to take effect things must happen first. Abraham rejoiced to see Christs day when Christ came unto him in the OT but Christ did come to him. And did not Yeshua lead them into the promised land forshadowing Yeshua leading us to the promised land through the NT? Even by the same name? Yet you would declare it isn't in the OT? No, it is all in there and one could truly know Christ before his advent just as today's people can know him before he returns. The receipe is still the same today as it was back then. Follow the spirit of Christ and receive him as Lord and you are given the power to become one of the sons of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eha Posted March 25, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 194 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 230 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/16/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/08/1973 Share Posted March 25, 2016 14 hours ago, Qnts2 said: to claim that Jesus was not God HE IS GOD. Jesus Christ did BORN FROM FATHER, angels, earth universe, we are CREATION. it probally are mistranslation, but i cant find other verse about Jesus birth. did look for it for all day yesterday (it was LONG time ago i did study Jesus birth) where FATHER says - I did BIRTH HIM FROM MY MOUTH (or something like that...) so JESUS DID BORN FROM FATHER before everything OTHER was CREATED. THATS WHY FATHER CALL HIM -SON. FATHER WAS JESUS BORN FROM FATHER... thats what im saying and really sad, that cant find that scripture. anyway... stone me if you want, but ... JESUS IS NOT SAME with FATHER HE IS SON, FATHER IS FATHER.. have a blessed day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted March 25, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 25, 2016 11 hours ago, gdemoss said: The identity of the Messiah can be determined by the OT alone through the Holy Spirit without need of the NT for the OT spoke of him. Not plainly, but in shadows, types, parables etc. The first time the gospel was preached was Genesis 3. Christ was, is and always will be needed in order to open the understanding that the scriptures can be known that a person might see the vast many places where salvation was shown to be in Christ and Christ alone. The whole NT comes out of the OT. Yes, in order for something to take effect things must happen first. Abraham rejoiced to see Christs day when Christ came unto him in the OT but Christ did come to him. And did not Yeshua lead them into the promised land forshadowing Yeshua leading us to the promised land through the NT? Even by the same name? Yet you would declare it isn't in the OT? No, it is all in there and one could truly know Christ before his advent just as today's people can know him before he returns. The receipe is still the same today as it was back then. Follow the spirit of Christ and receive him as Lord and you are given the power to become one of the sons of God. No it is not there. The OT was a pointer filled with prophesies so that when the Messiah came, people would know He was the Messiah. Genesis 3:15 says He would be born from a woman. Jesus was not born from a woman in Genesis 3:15. It was future. Why did God give that prophesy? So people would know the Messiah when He came. Gensis 3:15 also says the Messiah would bruise Satans head. That did not happen in the OT but the account of Jesus death for sins and resurrection, offering salvation and offering that people would no longer be sons of Adam in sin, but sons of God. Genesis 12:3 says the Messiah will be the descendent of Abraham and will bless all the nations which is not fulfilled until the NT Genesis 17:19 says the Messiah will be the descendant of Isaac. Genesis 22:8 Abraham said, n“God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” So they went both of them together. This is fulfilled in John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! Genesis 49:10 says he Messiah will be a descendant of Judah fulfilled in the NT with Luke 3:33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Admin, the son of Arni, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 2 Samuel 7:12 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. So the Messiah will be a son of David. The confirmation that Jesus is the son of Abraham and the son of David: Matthew 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham Micah 5:2 says He will be born in Bethlehem. Hagai 2:23 On that day, declares the Lord of hosts, I will take you, O Zerubbabel omy servant, the son of Shealtiel, declares the Lord, and make you like a signet ring, for I have chosen you, declares the Lord of hosts.” and the fulfillment Luke 3:23 Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, 25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda, 27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, In the OT, God gives many prophesies so that when the Messiah comes, He will be recognizable. Anyone who fails to fulfill the prophesies is to be dismissed as the Messiah as he does fit Gods pointers. There is only the NT which lists the important information to confirm that Jesus has the qualifications. The OT points to a future Messiah, and Jesus in the NT claimed to have the rights and God provided the witnesses to prove Jesus is the Messiah. God says there is one way to Him, through Jesus. You absolutely need the NT to preach the gospel of salvation, to prove Jesus is the Messiah, and to come to Jesus and be saved. You are missing that there is so much emphasis in the OT about the future coming Messiah, and how to identify Him. Again, if we did not have the NT Gospels, there would be no way to identify that Jesus is the Messiah for people today. If there is no witness of Jesus today, then there is no proof the Messiah has come. The OT says the Messiah will come. The NT says the Messiah has come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted March 25, 2016 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.38 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 25, 2016 Try to Tell the Wise Men from the East. Even They Knew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thallasa Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 31 minutes ago, Qnts2 said: No it is not there. The OT was a pointer filled with prophesies so that when the Messiah came, people would know He was the Messiah. Genesis 3:15 says He would be born from a woman. Jesus was not born from a woman in Genesis 3:15. It was future. Why did God give that prophesy? So people would know the Messiah when He came. Gensis 3:15 also says the Messiah would bruise Satans head. That did not happen in the OT but the account of Jesus death for sins and resurrection, offering salvation and offering that people would no longer be sons of Adam in sin, but sons of God. Genesis 12:3 says the Messiah will be the descendent of Abraham and will bless all the nations which is not fulfilled until the NT Genesis 17:19 says the Messiah will be the descendant of Isaac. Genesis 22:8 Abraham said, n“God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” So they went both of them together. This is fulfilled in John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! Genesis 49:10 says he Messiah will be a descendant of Judah fulfilled in the NT with Luke 3:33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Admin, the son of Arni, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 2 Samuel 7:12 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. So the Messiah will be a son of David. The confirmation that Jesus is the son of Abraham and the son of David: Matthew 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham Micah 5:2 says He will be born in Bethlehem. Hagai 2:23 On that day, declares the Lord of hosts, I will take you, O Zerubbabel omy servant, the son of Shealtiel, declares the Lord, and make you like a signet ring, for I have chosen you, declares the Lord of hosts.” and the fulfillment Luke 3:23 Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, 25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda, 27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, In the OT, God gives many prophesies so that when the Messiah comes, He will be recognizable. Anyone who fails to fulfill the prophesies is to be dismissed as the Messiah as he does fit Gods pointers. There is only the NT which lists the important information to confirm that Jesus has the qualifications. The OT points to a future Messiah, and Jesus in the NT claimed to have the rights and God provided the witnesses to prove Jesus is the Messiah. God says there is one way to Him, through Jesus. You absolutely need the NT to preach the gospel of salvation, to prove Jesus is the Messiah, and to come to Jesus and be saved. You are missing that there is so much emphasis in the OT about the future coming Messiah, and how to identify Him. Again, if we did not have the NT Gospels, there would be no way to identify that Jesus is the Messiah for people today. If there is no witness of Jesus today, then there is no proof the Messiah has come. The OT says the Messiah will come. The NT says the Messiah has come. You are correct QNTS . Just in the same way we can know that the 'grape ' can come from the 'seed' , until it does actually become a GRAPE, it is not completed ; there is no fruit . The OT does not guarantee salvation and eternal life , only the NT . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted March 25, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,853 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,761 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 25, 2016 On 3/23/2016 at 10:50 PM, Qnts2 said: They read Tenakh, and had the preaching of the Apostles and the disciples who told about Jesus. The very first preaching of the gospel is in Acts 2 Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. So, they were told about Jesus, before the writing of the NT. Today, the witnesses of Jesus wrote the gospels to show Who Jesus is and what He did. Or believers can go out and share the gospel. Or, in some circumstances when there are no believers available to share the good news of Jesus, God will give a person a revelation of Jesus. In all situations, it is not just the Tenakh. It is the Tenakh plus information or revelation about Jesus. Some Gentiles learn about Jesus first, without ever having read the Tenakh. But, all important is learning about Jesus since it is only through Jesus that we can know God, and receive eternal salvation. The passege in the book of acts, when Peter went to Kornilous family. The story of Paul giving the Gospel to a Roman, who did not have even any roots in the OT. Paul in the island of Militous at the reck of the boat, giving the Gospel to people who did not have anything to do with the OT. And there was not a synagogue in their Island. God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted March 25, 2016 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.38 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 25, 2016 Yahweh's WORD is WONDERFUL , ALIVE and TRUTH. TORAH, TANAKH and NEW TESTAMENT ALL, BREATHED BY YAHWEH. But it seems many people have not ever read Genesis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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