Understanding the Final One Seven

[Marcus O'Reillius]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You're wrong about the antecedent for the words "he" in verse 27. Those occurrences of "he" go back to the "Messiah" in verse 26. It doesn't reflect what is written in Rev. 13-16 because it's not about the same thing!

Sorry Roy.

And you're wrong about assigning Jesus to "causing to prevail" a Covenant with many for one 'seven'.

Jesus didn't "win" (your spin on gabar) any covenant for just seven years.
Jesus didn't "fulfill" any covenant for just seven years.
Jesus didn't do anything for just seven years.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Marcus O'Reillius

[George]

Wow -- what a thread!  I just finished reading it in its entirety -- and learned some fascinating things! 

I saw a few little jabs -- which are unnecessary, and it's obvious from this thread we have some very knowledgeable scholars of the Word!    I always love a good discussion when people don't agree -- because it helps open the mind to different understandings of key concepts! 

I am linking to the Keil-Delitzsch commentary of Daniel 9:27, because every argument everyone is discussing -- they lay out -- the pros' and cons' -- the Hebrew -- the Greek and then their understandings.  I think it's fascinating for those who want to read it and learn more about the passage from Hebraic and Greek scholars.

[Retrobyter]

On July 8, 2016 at 7:28 AM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Sorry Roy.

And you're wrong about assigning Jesus to "causing to prevail" a Covenant with many for one 'seven'.

Jesus didn't "win" (your spin on gabar) any covenant for just seven years.
Jesus didn't "fulfill" any covenant for just seven years.
Jesus didn't do anything for just seven years.

Shabbat shalom, Marcus.

See there! You don't even SAY it right! "Jesus to causing to prevail a Covenant." What's up with THAT?! That makes absolutely NO SENSE AT ALL the way you say it! It's like you don't even know how to use the word correctly! It's "Jesus caused a Covenant to prevail!" And, He DID! He DID cause a Covenant to prevail! He caused the DAVIDIC COVENANT to prevail! He acknowledged His role in God's plan!

The moment He stepped into the water and was baptized by John, He was submitting Himself to His Father's will! And, what did His Father in heaven say?

Matthew 3:17
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
KJV

This scene fulfilled the portion of the Davidic Covenant that said,

2 Samuel 7:12-16
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
KJV

(And, just as a side note, I am using royal purple for the lettering of words spoken directly by God the Father, just as I use red lettering for Yeshua`s words.)

Notice: It does NOT say, "I will be AS his father, and he shall be AS my son!" This is a prophecy to tell David that his descendant SHALL BE the very Son of God!

Also, this may be hard for you to swallow, as well, but the word used that is translated "he commit iniquity" is "bha`avowtow" coming from the word "`aavaah," meaning "to crook" or "to bend," which is also translated as "bow down."

Thus, the latter part of verse 14, the SAME VERSE, is a prophecy of Yeshua`s propitiation for our sins, NOT His own!

As far as "Jesus didn't do ANYTHING for just seven years," YOU'RE RIGHT! HOWEVER, now drop the other shoe! He was cut off in the middle of the Seven! And, He didn't let that go! Knowing that He was about to be cut off, He gave the Jews of Jerusalem a promise:

Matthew 23:38-39
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

And, again, this is a quotation from Psalm 118:26:

Psalm 118:26
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.
KJV

And, that whole sentence to the colon is four words in Hebrew, "Baruwkh haba' bshem YHWH."

And, as I've said before, "Baruwkh haba''" in Hebrew means "Welcome, comer!" When, they can WELCOME Him back, THEN He'll return and complete the last One Seven which He started at His baptism! His own tribe didn't accept Him as their King, even though He was introduced that way at His birth! It was also so noted on the "list of charges" posted over His cross!

Matthew 2:1-2
1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
KJV

Matthew 27:37
37 And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
KJV

Technically speaking, a "Jew" is one from the tribe of "Judah" or "Y'hudah," just ONE of the twelve tribes of Israel. The elders of Judah didn't like Pilate's "list of charges" and tried to have it changed:

John 19:19-22
19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.
21 Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.
22 Pilate answered, What I have written I have written.
KJV

But, Pilate was not about to change it.

Yeshua` SHALL win; Yeshua` SHALL completely fulfill the covenant; and Yeshua` SHALL completely cause the Covenant to prevail WHEN HE RETURNS!

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You don't even SAY it right! "Jesus to causing to prevail a Covenant." What's up with THAT?! That makes absolutely NO SENSE AT ALL the way you say it! It's like you don't even know how to use the word correctly! It's "Jesus caused a Covenant to prevail!" And, He DID! He DID cause a Covenant to prevail! He caused the DAVIDIC COVENANT to prevail! He acknowledged His role in God's plan!

Yeshua` SHALL win; Yeshua` SHALL completely fulfill the covenant; and Yeshua` SHALL completely cause the Covenant to prevail WHEN HE RETURNS!

But for only seven years - NOT!

And for crying out loud, talk about nit-picking!

I said when you assign 'Jesus to <QUOTE>causing to prevail<QUOTE> a covenant' -- I meant when you assign the personage of Jesus to the third person, male, singular conjugation of the Hiphel stem, verb form of gabar - you are wrong because:

On July 8, 2016 at 6:28 AM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Jesus didn't "win" (your spin on gabar) any covenant for just seven years.
Jesus didn't "fulfill" any covenant for just seven years.
Jesus didn't do anything for just seven years.

So you want to tell me Jesus' Ministry went into its fourth year?

Christian theology does not teach that.  His third year of Ministry was in opposition and people progressively turned away from His "hard teaching!"  NOWHERE IN THE GOSPEL RECORD OR IN THE EPISTLES DO THE APOSTLES ASSIGN FULFILLMENT OF HALF OF THE ONE 'SEVEN' TO JESUS.

FURTHERMORE - THE ONE 'SEVEN', WHILE DIVIDED INTO HALVES, IS A SINGLE, LAST, CLIMATIC UNIT OF TIME WHICH BRINGS INTO FRUITION SIX PURPOSES GOD HAS DEVISED FOR "THOSE IN THE BOOK" - DANIEL'S PEOPLE, AND JERUSALEM!

His First Advent was 1260 days long?  Oh really?  Please give us the dates so we can count the days.

His submission to John the Baptist was to fulfill all righteousness.  Fulfillment does not confirm; it fulfills.

The Father's pleasure in His obedience does not strengthen nor wins the Davidic Covenant.  It's not relevant at all.  It's a complete non-sequitur.

I'm sorry Roy, your persistent argument which we've had for years still doesn't hold any more water than it did at first.  And you won't change or concede one inch of ground at all; any more than you will accept the likeness of the New Jerusalem from being an enlargement of the cubical Most Holy Place, but instead make it into a pyramid!  LOL

Edited July 9, 2016 by Marcus O'Reillius

[Retrobyter]

On July 9, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

But for only seven years - NOT!

And for crying out loud, talk about nit-picking!

I said when you assign 'Jesus to <QUOTE>causing to prevail<QUOTE> a covenant' -- I meant when you assign the personage of Jesus to the third person, male, singular conjugation of the Hiphel stem, verb form of gabar - you are wrong because:

So you want to tell me Jesus' Ministry went into its fourth year?

Christian theology does not teach that.  His third year of Ministry was in opposition and people progressively turned away from His "hard teaching!"  NOWHERE IN THE GOSPEL RECORD OR IN THE EPISTLES DO THE APOSTLES ASSIGN FULFILLMENT OF HALF OF THE ONE 'SEVEN' TO JESUS.

FURTHERMORE - THE ONE 'SEVEN', WHILE DIVIDED INTO HALVES, IS A SINGLE, LAST, CLIMATIC UNIT OF TIME WHICH BRINGS INTO FRUITION SIX PURPOSES GOD HAS DEVISED FOR "THOSE IN THE BOOK" - DANIEL'S PEOPLE, AND JERUSALEM!

His First Advent was 1260 days long?  Oh really?  Please give us the dates so we can count the days.

His submission to John the Baptist was to fulfill all righteousness.  Fulfillment does not confirm; it fulfills.

The Father's pleasure in His obedience does not strengthen nor wins the Davidic Covenant.  It's not relevant at all.  It's a complete non-sequitur.

I'm sorry Roy, your persistent argument which we've had for years still doesn't hold any more water than it did at first.  And you won't change or concede one inch of ground at all; any more than you will accept the likeness of the New Jerusalem from being an enlargement of the cubical Most Holy Place, but instead make it into a pyramid!  LOL

Shalom, Marcus.

Okay, let's think about this for a minute: For what purpose are these seven years of the 70th Seven? Aren't their purpose the same as for the first 69? Thus, their purposes are:

Daniel 9:24
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
(1) to finish the transgression, and
(2) to make an end of sins, and
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint the most Holy.
KJV

These mean...

(1) to stay the revolt,
(2) to close up offenses,
(3) to cover perversity,
(4) to carry in justice,
(5) to close up vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint the Holy of Holies.

And, that last phrase, "qodesh qaadaashiym," is the same phrase (less the definite article) as found in Exodus 26:33ff and 1 Kings 6:16ff, referring to the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle and later in the Temple, respectively. This anointing they did in Exodus 40:9 and Leviticus 8:10, and then in 1 Kings 8:5-11.

This is PRECISELY what Yeshua`, the Seed of David, would do in the future!

2 Samuel 7:12-13
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
KJV

It's not about how long He would reign; it's about how long it takes for Him to BEGIN His reign! How long it takes for His subjects to recognize His authority to reign! His Kingdom is forever - an INFINITE amount of time (FAR longer than a mere 1000 years). The establishment of His Kingdom takes a FINITE amount of time.

"To stay the revolt." What revolt? I would say that it is the revolt that Yeshua` mentioned in His parable:

Luke 19:11-27
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
KJV

It's been 2,000 years now, and STILL the children of Israel revolt!

Oh, and apparently you've never read Davies' Harmony of the Gospels. In it, he shows how there WERE four Passovers mentioned. Yeshua` started His "ministry" (actually, His offer of the Kingdom) close to His 30th birthday (at Sukkot), and saw four Passovers being killed on the last one. Thus, He saw 3.5 years of His offer of the Kingdom finally rejected and He was cut off in the middle of the Seven. HE postponed the latter half when He left them desolate. When He returns, He will pick back up where He left off, and He will offer the Kingdom for another 3.5 years, as per Revelation.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Roy, I know how Jesus fulfilled the Spring Festivals, or "Appointments with God," in an exacting literal fashion.
I know that the Fall Festivals will be fulfilled, but rather than 1:1, they serve as a template for the order that events happen with Jesus' Second Advent.

I agree with the assessment that the NASB makes for "most holy" adding in, as you do, 'place' to it - as Jesus clears the Temple of the Abomination when He Returns and the third Temple has a predominant role to play in the Millennium Reign of the Saints which will save 'all' of Israel.

However, I cannot agree with your assignment of Jesus to "winning" any Covenant which lasts only for seven years!
Nor can I agree with splitting up the one 'seven' with a huge expanse of time between its respective halves.

And those are two sticking points you might be able to accept in your thinking, but for me, they invalidate your whole take on things.
Sorry.  --Mark

[Revelation Man]

On 7/12/2016 at 10:36 PM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Roy, I know how Jesus fulfilled the Spring Festivals, or "Appointments with God," in an exacting literal fashion.
I know that the Fall Festivals will be fulfilled, but rather than 1:1, they serve as a template for the order that events happen with Jesus' Second Advent.

I agree with the assessment that the NASB makes for "most holy" adding in, as you do, 'place' to it - as Jesus clears the Temple of the Abomination when He Returns and the third Temple has a predominant role to play in the Millennium Reign of the Saints which will save 'all' of Israel.

However, I cannot agree with your assignment of Jesus to "winning" any Covenant which lasts only for seven years!
Nor can I agree with splitting up the one 'seven' with a huge expanse of time between its respective halves.

And those are two sticking points you might be able to accept in your thinking, but for me, they invalidate your whole take on things.
Sorry.  --Mark

Daniels 70th Week is the so called Tribulation, it is called that because both Daniel and Jesus said there would be a time of trouble, like never before or ever will be. (Daniel 12:1, Matthew 24) Both of these events are triggered by the Abomination of Desolation, so we know this "Troubled time" is only 3 1/2 years. This is why 42 months, 3 1/2 years, time, times and 1/2 time, 1260 days is used over and over throughout scriptures. And it is God's wrath because Jesus opens the Seals. I think most understand that everyone that says all of the wrath will be God's wrath is not speaking about the full 7 years, but the full wrath. Even in Rev. 17:16 when the Great Harlot is destroyed, 17:17 says God placed this in their hearts. 

As per the Rapture being pre, mid or post, I do not think it is even in doubt that God takes out the Church, and then Deals with Israels Repentance. Basically the rapture timing is shown in the Seven Feasts of Leviticus chapter 23, which proves Daniel's 70th week is after the Rapture.

Spring Feasts that Jesus fulfilled

Feast of Passover (applied the blood for us)

Feast of unleavened bread (Jesus was without sin)

Feast of First-fruits (Jesus was the first-fruits by conquering death)

Then you have the Feast that is separate from both the Spring Feasts and Fall Feasts

Feast of Pentecost (Harvest) this is the Church age, we are the body of the sower (Jesus) and we will be a sowing until the Last Trump is blown.

Now the Fall Feast come into play.

Feast of Trumpets ( This Feast does/did nothing but Announce the coming of the Feast of Atonement and Tabernacle and the end of Pentecost. I believe that this Last Trump, as spoken by Paul, the shofar Trump, will announce that the Church Age/Pentecost is over, and the Atonement of Israel is at hand or 70th Week, one of Daniels Six events that must happen before the Messiah returns, and Israel turns back unto God, is Atonement, it is a MUST.  Full list :  These six things have to come to pass before Daniel's Decrees are fulfilled. 

In Daniel 9:24, Daniel prophesied that these six things must come to pass before this judgment against Israel would be fulfilled. Some think Jesus fulfilled all of these, most seem to think, as I do, that these things have not come to pass, and when they do that will be the end of the age.

1. Finish the transgression ( Israel's Revolt against God must end )
2. Make and end of sins ( refers to ending daily sins, only the 1000 reign can bring this in )
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity ( This is the Atonement for sins mentioned above, Jesus blood is finally applied, they accept him as Messiah )
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness ( This is Jesus ruling as King of Kings no doubt )
5. To seal up vision and prophecy ( All prophecy must be finished and sealed up )
6. Anoint the most Holy ( And Jesus Christ has to be anointed Lord of Lords and King of Kings )

So, the Last Trump announces the Church age is over, and the Atonement of Israel is at hand.  (Last Trump, Revelation Seals, Trumps and Vials are announced also, I think it all ties in, Feast of Trumpets announces coming events.) This leads to the :

Feast of Atonement. ( Israel being cleansed : Zechariah 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened (Jesus' blood) to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. 

Feast of Tabernacle ( Tabernacle in Hebrew means dwelling with God ) So Israel is atoned, then they Dwell with God. (Grafted back into he Olive Tree and dwell with God as we all do. The Church is already with Christ Jesus. Israel is the Wheat and the wicked ones are the Tares.)

It is pretty clear, the Last Seven year period is about Israel, not the Church.

[ghtan]

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Daniels 70th Week is the so called Tribulation, it is called that because both Daniel and Jesus said there would be a time of trouble, like never before or ever will be. (Daniel 12:1, Matthew 24)

I think Matthew 24:21 actually fits the fall of Jerusalem in AD70 better. Josephus said the prolonged siege caused women to do the unthinkable and eat their babies, fulfilling what Moses warned in Deut 28:57. Given modern warfare, a future battle for Jerusalem would unlikely last long enough for that to be repeated. So Mt 24:21 has already been fulfilled, in my opinion.

[Revelation Man]

10 hours ago, ghtan said:

I think Matthew 24:21 actually fits the fall of Jerusalem in AD70 better. Josephus said the prolonged siege caused women to do the unthinkable and eat their babies, fulfilling what Moses warned in Deut 28:57. Given modern warfare, a future battle for Jerusalem would unlikely last long enough for that to be repeated. So Mt 24:21 has already been fulfilled, in my opinion.

Which is why we have to allow the scriptures to interpret themselves. Believe me, in the 80's, I read every book out there about anything, and it finally hit me, I am confused because I am hearing men's words or understandings. Now as per AD 70 being this time of atonement. You have to understand, atonement, even by men, only happens when we receive it. You nor I were atoned when Jesus died, our sins were paid for, but we are only atoned when we accept this atonement of sins. If Jesus atoned everyone when he died for them then everyone would go to heaven.

 

And the 70 week prophecy says that Israel MUST BE Atoned before he returns. Read the Feasts of Leviticus, God placed a perfect picture of what was going to happen in there. GB

[ghtan]

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Which is why we have to allow the scriptures to interpret themselves. Believe me, in the 80's, I read every book out there about anything, and it finally hit me, I am confused because I am hearing men's words or understandings. Now as per AD 70 being this time of atonement. You have to understand, atonement, even by men, only happens when we receive it. You nor I were atoned when Jesus died, our sins were paid for, but we are only atoned when we accept this atonement of sins. If Jesus atoned everyone when he died for them then everyone would go to heaven.

 

And the 70 week prophecy says that Israel MUST BE Atoned before he returns. Read the Feasts of Leviticus, God placed a perfect picture of what was going to happen in there. GB

Atonement has already been accomplished. Hebrews 2:17 says Jesus made atonement for the sins of the people and then Heb 10:12 says Jesus offered for all time one sacrifice for sin. AD70 was not the time of atonement of Israel's sin; the cross was.