Understanding the Final One Seven

[Montana Marv]

44 minutes ago, Paradigm said:

I thought I would repost this from one of the other current threads since it is relevant to this discussion. 

Daniel 9:24-27

²⁴ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

²⁵ Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

²⁶ And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Who accomplishes the goals in the 70 weeks that are determined upon the people of Daniel and Jerusalem?

• To finish the transgression
• Make an end of sins
• Make reconciliation for iniquity
• Bring in everlasting righteousness
• Seal up the vision
• And the prophecy
• Anoint the most holy

 

Who confirms the covenant?

 

Galatians 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

 

Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

 

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

 

Psalm 105:10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:

 

Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

 

Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

 

1 Corinthians 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

 

1 Corinthians 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

 

So, are there scriptures showing that the seven goals of Daniel 7:24 will be accomplished by the Messiah?

Are there scriptures showing that through the Messiah that the Covenant of God will be confirmed?

Is there any scripture that states that a so-called antichrist will confirm some peace treaty?

For it is written:

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Can the antichrist peace treaty doctrine be established by two or three witnesses? 

By one himself. We are not talking about Breathern as in Matt 18:16.

The six goals are benefits to be received. As yet Israel does not believe, so they are yet future for them.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Esther4:14]

10 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

William

The A/D of Dan 12:11 and 9:27 are the same event.  12:7 - states that there will be 42 months until the power of the holy people has finally been broken.  The scales will be removed from their eyes.  And this is the period of time where Michael, the great prince who protect Daniels people will arise (Dan 12:1)

Again those of Israel never could flee before or once Titus entered the Temple, it was already in ruins, the city was under siege remember,  and many had already died of starvation.  Also, no one could be in a field to flee from, for the Roman soldiers were already there.  So Matt 24:17 is NOT describing the events of 70 AD.

Sorry, but Matt 24:17 is projected for a future time; a time of peace, then a time to flee.  None of which matches anything in or around the events of 70 AD.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Right, but it would match the conditions when the prophet Jeremiah was warning Israel about being taken into captivity.  He warned them not to flee as is to described.  That the sword would follow them implying that they would try to flee being taken into captivity (Jeremiah 44:28).  

Jeremiah 16:16-18 says:

"Behold, I am going to send for many fishermen,” declares the Lord, “and they will fish for them; and afterwards I will send for many hunters, and they will hunt them from every mountain and every hill and from the clefts of the rocks.   For My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from My face, nor is their iniquity concealed from My eyes.   I will first doubly repay their iniquity and their sin, because they have polluted My land; they have filled My inheritance with the carcasses of their detestable idols and with their abominations.”

Because verse 16 begins again with "behold" it cannot be considered in context with verse 15, which is in context with verse 14, which also begins with "behold.". 

These are two separate passages and verse 16 cannot be considered the method He plans to use to bring people back to the land in context.  

He says He will send for fisherman because His eyes are on their ways and they will not be able to hide their sin by hiding in the cleft of the rock, which is applicable to the warning Jeremiah gave the people at the time and when Revelation says they will hide from Him in mountains and flee, and this is because it a double judgement.  The first time during the time before they were taken into captivity and the second time on the day of the Lord.  This is what He means by repaying them double for their sins, and no I do not think this has happened yet myself either.  

But, I think it is possible that Jeremiah 16:18 is a key to understanding the final seven.  Because, hypothetically speaking, if the final seven is the second part of the judgement, then understanding the first part is the key to understanding the second; or just understanding that the two are more like salt and pepper than oil and water.  

[Spock]

On April 2, 2016 at 9:48 AM, Last Daze said:

I've yet to hear a good explanation as to how a covenant can be confirmed for seven years when it's broken in the middle, or am I missing something?

Sure, it happens all the time in sports.  A dude signs a 6 year deal but the team breaks it after 3 years and cuts him.  That is why in some sports like football, they pay signing bonuses. 

Anyone can break a contract at any point in time. People do it all the time. Marriage contracts are supposed to be for life, right? 

[Last Daze]

20 minutes ago, Spock said:

Sure, it happens all the time in sports.  A dude signs a 6 year deal but the team breaks it after 3 years and cuts him.  That is why in some sports like football, they pay signing bonuses. 

Anyone can break a contract at any point in time. People do it all the time. Marriage contracts are supposed to be for life, right? 

There is a difference between "making" an agreement for a specific duration (which may or may not be kept as you describe) and actively "confirming" an existing agreement for a specified duration.  If a covenant is to be confirmed or strengthened for seven years then of necessity it requires seven years to complete.

Daniel 9:27 gives no indication that a covenant is made, only strengthened, an activity that must take place for the specified length of time.

[Last Daze]

19 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Really there is no difference.  A person confirming, reestablishing or renewing  a covenant for a seven year period  is what - a seven year covenant.  This seven year period is between two or more parties.

Really, there is a huge difference.  Daniel 9:27 states that the strengthening of the covenant lasts for seven years.  For seven years it will last.

[ghtan]

15 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Really, there is a huge difference.  Daniel 9:27 states that the strengthening of the covenant lasts for seven years.  For seven years it will last.

Hi LD, I don't understand what you are trying to get at. Do you mean you think the covenant is broken at the end, and not the midst, of the seven years? Do you see this as fulfilled in AD70 or is it an end day prophecy? (I read it as MM does but I think it refers to AD70.)

[Esther4:14]

36 minutes ago, ghtan said:

Hi LD, I don't understand what you are trying to get at. Do you mean you think the covenant is broken at the end, and not the midst, of the seven years? Do you see this as fulfilled in AD70 or is it an end day prophecy? (I read it as MM does but I think it refers to AD70.)

No, he is saying that the covenant already exists and the AC will confirm it, or say he will adhere to a preexisting precept, and he will go back on his word to maintain this in the middle of the week.  It is a very insightful observation I hadn't noticed before.  I agree with him and have my own initial observations regarding this insight.  

Inevitably, it makes more sense because it is an easier way for the AC to get approval by confirming someing that has approval already.  It is like trying to ride on the coat tails of the rather than inventing a new concept that requires approval.  As a rule people fear change.  It is much easier to try to deceive someone using what they are comfortable with rather than expecting them to change.  

I hope that makes some sense.  

[ghtan]

5 hours ago, Esther4:14 said:

No, he is saying that the covenant already exists and the AC will confirm it, or say he will adhere to a preexisting precept, and he will go back on his word to maintain this in the middle of the week.  It is a very insightful observation I hadn't noticed before.  I agree with him and have my own initial observations regarding this insight.  

Inevitably, it makes more sense because it is an easier way for the AC to get approval by confirming someing that has approval already.  It is like trying to ride on the coat tails of the rather than inventing a new concept that requires approval.  As a rule people fear change.  It is much easier to try to deceive someone using what they are comfortable with rather than expecting them to change.  

I hope that makes some sense.  

Thanks Esther, but I'm still confused. What is this covenant that already exists?

[Esther4:14]

10 minutes ago, ghtan said:

Thanks Esther, but I'm still confused. What is this covenant that already exists?

Well the process would not necessarily need to be the covenant.  The covenant would be the promise to continue the process.  I think this is demonstrated in the American campaign for the constitution.  That is what everyone talks about when they run for office.  Saying that they will uphold the constitution is how candidates get support from the Christian community because we are led to believe that the constitution was based on Christian principles.  

Now if I were writing a constitution, I would specifically say something beyond freedom of religion.  Something that would include the name of Jesus, like that we have freedom to grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ without the interference or judgement of church or government.  This way citizens can become the most productive they can be in service.

 So, in my opinion, the present constitution would not be a stretch for the Antichrist considering it mentions nothing about Christ to confirm and it is the Christian concept of freedom that hinders the oppression of the Devil right now.  

Christianity is what is preventing the mark right now so to speak.  Basically, in order for the prophecy to work, the Devil needs a way to get support from the church, and the constitution is the way to accomplish this.  

So, this is an example.  The covenant would be to confirm the constitution for seven in something of a international government, which I do believe would be initiated by Israel, which is what the Zionist teaching is about.  To get Christians ready to willingly accept a Jewish state.  

There is no way it will be Islam because Islam doesn't have the diverse appeal the way the western world does.  The prophecy suggests more in the way of support of the Antichrist rather than domination.  For example, when it talks about mystery Babylon makes the nations drunk and rich (Revelation 18:3).  

I don't see Islam making the nations rich or drunk, but the Jewish community is widely recognized for their lending that could practically be a science at this point.  It is a somewhat benign piece of history even when we learn that the Jews were lending in England after they were allowed to return during the Renaissance.  You know our history book will say that they became money lenders because the tradesmen didn't want them to join their guilds.  We think ah, the English were antisemitic then and think nothing of what this means leading to the fulfillment of prophecy regarding mystery Babylon.  

But, that's not the only example I have of a confirmed covenant.  Karl Marx is noted for many books besides the communist manifesto.  He also wrote a book called "On the Jewish Question". He was a Jew, but apparently he feels Judaism should go in a new direction.  So, I do think the antichrist could be someone like Marx who leads the world from Israel and does start mosaic temple laws, or confirms them, because the Mosaic temple regulations already exist.  They aren't new.  Then, he could dispose of them thinking he is like a God.  

It would be like when King Uzziah went to go light the incense in the temple.  This brought the end of His reign as King of Judah (2 Chronicles 26:19).  

More than likely, I think it will be a combination of the two, because even if you have an event like that happen, you have to think of the whole picture.  There is deception, itching ears, apostacy.  Someone says something people want to hear, not something they are forced to hear.  I do think what we are seeing in America is the best present comparison because every 4 years, we get excited again. I think when the AC does come, it will have similar enthusiasm to our election process, which would be another example of confirming a covenant or making a promise to keep a sort of electoral process so people are fairly represented, and then this could be revoked.  I guess that is even another example.  

So, those are my scenarios that I have been working on since understanding what LD has presented for discussion.  I hope it makes sense.  I wrote it on my tablet.  I imagined it being shorter.  I think I should have got up and gone to a keyboard.  Take care.  

[ghtan]

40 minutes ago, Esther4:14 said:

Well the process would not necessarily need to be the covenant.  The covenant would be the promise to continue the process.  I think this is demonstrated in the American campaign for the constitution.  That is what everyone talks about when they run for office.  Saying that they will uphold the constitution is how candidates get support from the Christian community because we are led to believe that the constitution was based on Christian principles.  

Now if I were writing a constitution, I would specifically say something beyond freedom of religion.  Something that would include the name of Jesus, like that we have freedom to grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ without the interference or judgement of church or government.  This way citizens can become the most productive they can be in service.

 So, in my opinion, the present constitution would not be a stretch for the Antichrist considering it mentions nothing about Christ to confirm and it is the Christian concept of freedom that hinders the oppression of the Devil right now.  

Christianity is what is preventing the mark right now so to speak.  Basically, in order for the prophecy to work, the Devil needs a way to get support from the church, and the constitution is the way to accomplish this.  

So, this is an example.  The covenant would be to confirm the constitution for seven in something of a international government, which I do believe would be initiated by Israel, which is what the Zionist teaching is about.  To get Christians ready to willingly accept a Jewish state.  

There is no way it will be Islam because Islam doesn't have the diverse appeal the way the western world does.  The prophecy suggests more in the way of support of the Antichrist rather than domination.  For example, when it talks about mystery Babylon makes the nations drunk and rich (Revelation 18:3).  

I don't see Islam making the nations rich or drunk, but the Jewish community is widely recognized for their lending that could practically be a science at this point.  It is a somewhat benign piece of history even when we learn that the Jews were lending in England after they were allowed to return during the Renaissance.  You know our history book will say that they became money lenders because the tradesmen didn't want them to join their guilds.  We think ah, the English were antisemitic then and think nothing of what this means leading to the fulfillment of prophecy regarding mystery Babylon.  

But, that's not the only example I have of a confirmed covenant.  Karl Marx is noted for many books besides the communist manifesto.  He also wrote a book called "On the Jewish Question". He was a Jew, but apparently he feels Judaism should go in a new direction.  So, I do think the antichrist could be someone like Marx who leads the world from Israel and does start mosaic temple laws, or confirms them, because the Mosaic temple regulations already exist.  They aren't new.  Then, he could dispose of them thinking he is like a God.  

It would be like when King Uzziah went to go light the incense in the temple.  This brought the end of His reign as King of Judah (2 Chronicles 26:19).  

More than likely, I think it will be a combination of the two, because even if you have an event like that happen, you have to think of the whole picture.  There is deception, itching ears, apostacy.  Someone says something people want to hear, not something they are forced to hear.  I do think what we are seeing in America is the best present comparison because every 4 years, we get excited again. I think when the AC does come, it will have similar enthusiasm to our election process, which would be another example of confirming a covenant or making a promise to keep a sort of electoral process so people are fairly represented, and then this could be revoked.  I guess that is even another example.  

So, those are my scenarios that I have been working on since understanding what LD has presented for discussion.  I hope it makes sense.  I wrote it on my tablet.  I imagined it being shorter.  I think I should have got up and gone to a keyboard.  Take care.  

Thanks again. It is always interesting to see how others look at things even though we may not agree. Personally, I think Rev 13 tells us how the AC will gain acceptance and popularity - he will operate in the miraculous. It is simple and it works all the time. People even Christians are easily taken in by signs and wonders, and the devil knows it.