The Great Image.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Kan,

On ‎29‎/‎04‎/‎2016 at 5:21 AM, Kan said:

To look for a physical restoration of Israel, may be a distraction, just like the Jews expected the Messiah to rid the land of Roman rule, so they missed the Messiah and crucified Him in ignorance. 

I believe in the restoration and conversion of natural Israel at the return of Christ Micah 4:1-8, Ezekiel 38-39, Zechariah 14, Acts 3:19-21, Romans 11.

On ‎29‎/‎04‎/‎2016 at 5:21 AM, Kan said:

The sanctuary in heaven is being cleansed

There is nothing unclean or unholy in heaven.

Kind regards Trevor

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again Kan,

I believe in the restoration and conversion of natural Israel at the return of Christ Micah 4:1-8, Ezekiel 38-39, Zechariah 14, Acts 3:19-21, Romans 11.

There is nothing unclean or unholy in heaven.

Kind regards Trevor

Amen bro.

Marilyn.

[Kan]

3 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again Kan,

I believe in the restoration and conversion of natural Israel at the return of Christ Micah 4:1-8, Ezekiel 38-39, Zechariah 14, Acts 3:19-21, Romans 11.

There is nothing unclean or unholy in heaven.

Kind regards Trevor

What sins are on record in the books of heaven? Don't tell me God wants to keep them. But if they are going to be deleted, it cannot be done in secret, or without due consideration of every name written in the books. It must be done through an open process of judgement. Daniel 7:!0. This judgement is in behalf of God, angels, man and other intelligent creatures interested in the great controversy.

Rev 14 "Fear God and give glory to Him for the hour of His judgement has come." That Judgement has already begun in the sanctuary after the 2300 prophetic years ended.

The books record the relationship each individual had with God. So it marks what God has done for them as well. No person or name is treated with carelessness or indifference in heaven. Everyone has their place in either giving God glory or not.

National Israel will not be restored, but those who are of Israel by faith. All who live by faith are Abraham's children. Spiritual Israel, not a city of bloodshed. 

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Kan,

 

I have had a reasonable amount of contact with SDAs and their theology. This was initially in Sydney, then working near Coorangbong, a major SDA centre and hence working with some SDAs, and also contact with SDAs near home. I have also obtained and read a reasonable amount of SDA literature.

 

3 hours ago, Kan said:

What sins are on record in the books of heaven? Don't tell me God wants to keep them. But if they are going to be deleted, it cannot be done in secret, or without due consideration of every name written in the books.

 

This is one area of SDA teaching that I find difficult. My impression is that SDAs teach that the 1000 years is going to be occupied (almost in a morbid fashion) in pouring over the records of those that are already rejected. For my part I do not believe that there are written records, but this is figurative language. The judgement seat is when Jesus returns. Jesus has a perfect record in his mind of all things and will be quick and sure, revealing the hearts and minds Hebrews 4:12, just as the examination of Adam and Eve in the garden was effective and true.

 

I could list many other differences, but the major difference between my understanding and SDA teaching is that I believe in the 1000 year reign of Jesus upon the earth, with Jesus sitting upon the throne of David in Jerusalem, ruling over a converted Israel and the nations also subjugated and worshipping at Jerusalem Isaiah 2:1-4, Ezekiel 38-48, Zechariah 14, Acts 3:19-21. This difference is very relevant to the subject of Daniel 2, as SDAs ignore the simple teaching of Daniel 2 and insert a 1000 year gap before the mountain fills the earth. My experience of SDAs from my initial contact to the present is that they ignore large portions of the prophetic word, while claiming to understand Daniel and Revelation.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

Edited May 1, 2016 by TrevorL

[Kan]

6 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again Kan,

 

I have had a reasonable amount of contact with SDAs and their theology. This was initially in Sydney, then working near Coorangbong, a major SDA centre and hence working with some SDAs, and also contact with SDAs near home. I have also obtained and read a reasonable amount of SDA literature.

 

 

This is one area of SDA teaching that I find difficult. My impression is that SDAs teach that the 1000 years is going to be occupied (almost in a morbid fashion) in pouring over the records of those that are already rejected. For my part I do not believe that there are written records, but this is figurative language. The judgement seat is when Jesus returns. Jesus has a perfect record in his mind of all things and will be quick and sure, revealing the hearts and minds Hebrews 4:12, just as the examination of Adam and Eve in the garden was effective and true.

 

I could list many other differences, but the major difference between my understanding and SDA teaching is that I believe in the 1000 year reign of Jesus upon the earth, with Jesus sitting upon the throne of David in Jerusalem, ruling over a converted Israel and the nations also subjugated and worshipping at Jerusalem Isaiah 2:1-4, Ezekiel 38-48, Zechariah 14, Acts 3:19-21. This difference is very relevant to the subject of Daniel 2, as SDAs ignore the simple teaching of Daniel 2 and insert a 1000 year gap before the mountain fills the earth. My experience of SDAs from my initial contact to the present is that they ignore large portions of the prophetic word, while claiming to understand Daniel and Revelation.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

Well I am still looking into SDA material and checking it out with the Bible.

I don't find anything morbid about the records in heaven, they allow you to have a living experience in any era with any character or situation you view. Exploring our ancestry is very pertinent, especially if you have any concern for final outcomes. The records are also a revelation of God's care and providence for each individual. It is a heartbreaking record, I grant you that. The reason it is left open, is so that people can heal. So that they can understand everything that went on in their lives and the life of the world, if they need to. Facing our own defects and obstacles in this life creates the need for this opportunity in heaven. You may wonder why it takes a 1000 years. It takes a life time to heal from this life, and remember people have lived for up to nearly 1000 years. It is not compulsory to view the records, but the conversations of people will include life on this earth, and it is only appropriate that an accurate record is available for reference and further investigation. However, if one just wants to run around and eat ice cream all day they can, its good that they can experience a childhood they never had.

Truth is very important in heaven, and it takes a lot of time for it to unfold. God deals gently with people. No one is snapped into heaven, and changed into something that denies their beginnings and experiences in this life. To be authentic and living in reality demands that this corruptible and mortal life puts on the incorruptible and immortality. The old is not discarded but incorporated. 

The central theme of Daniel is the cause of the sanctuary in heaven vs the kingdoms of this world. The gap of a 1000 years goes in Daniel 2, cannot be pinned onto SDA's as many people were aware of it before. Revelation gives a more detailed view of all the prophecies in Daniel, and it tells of the 1000 year gap. 

The 1000 year reign on earth is a doctrine that is held by the JW's who were an offshoot of the SDA movement. Today nearly all of Christendom has embraced that concept, and have gone further, saying that the Jewish temple based nation will be restored and so forth. From there on, complications and different versions spring up, which debate the role of Satan, the wicked, who will be ruler and so many other issues.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Kan,

 

10 hours ago, Kan said:

Well I am still looking into SDA material and checking it out with the Bible.

 

I am also checking my perspective from the Bible and still learning some additional features. From what you have written I gain the impression that you have had a fairly large contact with the SDA material or environment and make statements that defend and reflect their perspective rather than what can initially be deducted from the Scriptures under consideration, for example the 1000 year gap suggested by the SDAs regarding Daniel 2 and the Investigative Judgement, both unique to SDA teaching.

 

10 hours ago, Kan said:

I don't find anything morbid about the records in heaven, they allow you to have a living experience in any era with any character or situation you view.

 

If my view is correct and I am accepted by Jesus at his coming, then I will be with him upon the earth for the 1000 years. If your view is correct then you will be in heaven, and I will be in the grave awaiting the 2^nd resurrection and ultimate rejection.

 

Perhaps you may like to practice by looking at my book now and correct my many mistakes. The following are a few of the many incidents in my life where I exercised a choice in belief, and did not go along the SDA path. The first three of the following were in my youth and set the direction of my life and understanding:  

1. Encouraged and arranged by the SDA mother of one of my workmates, I had a visit by a SDA Pastor and his assistant. I asked about a number of prophecies that I believed referred to the Kingdom of God on earth, but received the reply that these were not to be fulfilled. They claimed that they would have been fulfilled if the Jews had accepted their Messiah. Exactly what were all the passages I mentioned at the time I cannot recall, but I do remember Ezekiel 38-39 and my belief that this teaches that there was to be a preliminary regathering of the Jews to the Holy Land before a northern invasion, and then Christ would intervene, overcome the invaders, and rescue and convert the Jews. Then Ezekiel 40-48 describes the Temple to be built for worship during the 1000 years. The Pastor rejected the concept of the Temple of Ezekiel 40-48 and stated that the elements could be used to teach spiritual lessons only.
2. I met a senior SDA in the Sydney domain, and asked him concerning Zechariah 14. He said that this chapter does not fit in with his understanding of the kingdom, and did not know why God placed that chapter in the Bible.
3. I attended a SDA presentation, and we were invited to submit questions on paper. I asked, Revelation 20:6 speaks of the faithful being kings and priests during the 1000 years. Over whom will they be kings and for whom will they act as priests if all the rest of mankind are in their graves for the 1000 years. I did not receive an adequate answer.
4. This is more recent: I attended the start of a Daniel Seminar series. I asked about some of the detail of Daniel 2, especially Daniel 2:35 that speaks of the mountain filling the earth. I linked this with Acts 3:19-21 that speaks of the return of Christ as being times of restoration and refreshing, as predicted in the prophets, not a time of burning and desolation.

The above are still part of my present belief structure and reinforced by my experiences and I have not received a reasonable answer to these from a SDA. I could reinforce these by drawing attention to many other passages, but a few are Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Daniel 2, 7, 8, 11 and Acts 3:19-21.

 

10 hours ago, Kan said:

The 1000 year reign on earth is a doctrine that is held by the JW's who were an offshoot of the SDA movement.

 

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the history surrounding the Millerites. On pages 478-479 of the book SDAs Answer Questions on Doctrine, there is outlined three groups that joined in expectation that 1843 was significant. One group believed in the kingdom of God on earth, another group also believed in the conversion of Israel and the nations – I agree with this group. These two groups are labeled as having ideas derived from the writings of the British literalists. There was a third group holding William Miller’s view of heaven going and the burning of the earth.  This group “denied the pre-millennialist literalism that required detailed fulfillments, after the Second Advent, of the OT prophecies of the earthly rule of Israel over carnal nations” pages 479-480. I endorse the second group and have some records of their writings and interactions before and after 1843.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Kan & TrevorL,

Probably time to start your own thread as regards all that other material & not the Great Image discussion.

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

[Kan]

2 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again Kan,

 

 

I am also checking my perspective from the Bible and still learning some additional features. From what you have written I gain the impression that you have had a fairly large contact with the SDA material or environment and make statements that defend and reflect their perspective rather than what can initially be deducted from the Scriptures under consideration, for example the 1000 year gap suggested by the SDAs regarding Daniel 2 and the Investigative Judgement, both unique to SDA teaching.

 

 

If my view is correct and I am accepted by Jesus at his coming, then I will be with him upon the earth for the 1000 years. If your view is correct then you will be in heaven, and I will be in the grave awaiting the 2^nd resurrection and ultimate rejection.

 

Perhaps you may like to practice by looking at my book now and correct my many mistakes. The following are a few of the many incidents in my life where I exercised a choice in belief, and did not go along the SDA path. The first three of the following were in my youth and set the direction of my life and understanding:  

1. Encouraged and arranged by the SDA mother of one of my workmates, I had a visit by a SDA Pastor and his assistant. I asked about a number of prophecies that I believed referred to the Kingdom of God on earth, but received the reply that these were not to be fulfilled. They claimed that they would have been fulfilled if the Jews had accepted their Messiah. Exactly what were all the passages I mentioned at the time I cannot recall, but I do remember Ezekiel 38-39 and my belief that this teaches that there was to be a preliminary regathering of the Jews to the Holy Land before a northern invasion, and then Christ would intervene, overcome the invaders, and rescue and convert the Jews. Then Ezekiel 40-48 describes the Temple to be built for worship during the 1000 years. The Pastor rejected the concept of the Temple of Ezekiel 40-48 and stated that the elements could be used to teach spiritual lessons only.
2. I met a senior SDA in the Sydney domain, and asked him concerning Zechariah 14. He said that this chapter does not fit in with his understanding of the kingdom, and did not know why God placed that chapter in the Bible.
3. I attended a SDA presentation, and we were invited to submit questions on paper. I asked, Revelation 20:6 speaks of the faithful being kings and priests during the 1000 years. Over whom will they be kings and for whom will they act as priests if all the rest of mankind are in their graves for the 1000 years. I did not receive an adequate answer.
4. This is more recent: I attended the start of a Daniel Seminar series. I asked about some of the detail of Daniel 2, especially Daniel 2:35 that speaks of the mountain filling the earth. I linked this with Acts 3:19-21 that speaks of the return of Christ as being times of restoration and refreshing, as predicted in the prophets, not a time of burning and desolation.

The above are still part of my present belief structure and reinforced by my experiences and I have not received a reasonable answer to these from a SDA. I could reinforce these by drawing attention to many other passages, but a few are Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Daniel 2, 7, 8, 11 and Acts 3:19-21.

 

 

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the history surrounding the Millerites. On pages 478-479 of the book SDAs Answer Questions on Doctrine, there is outlined three groups that joined in expectation that 1843 was significant. One group believed in the kingdom of God on earth, another group also believed in the conversion of Israel and the nations – I agree with this group. These two groups are labeled as having ideas derived from the writings of the British literalists. There was a third group holding William Miller’s view of heaven going and the burning of the earth.  This group “denied the pre-millennialist literalism that required detailed fulfillments, after the Second Advent, of the OT prophecies of the earthly rule of Israel over carnal nations” pages 479-480. I endorse the second group and have some records of their writings and interactions before and after 1843.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

It's all very interesting, it seems like you have a bone to pick with SDA's, you'll have to take it up with them, I am not that well informed.

[Kan]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Kan & TrevorL,

Probably time to start your own thread as regards all that other material & not the Great Image discussion.

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

Got it 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Marilyn C,

4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Probably time to start your own thread as regards all that other material & not the Great Image discussion.

I accept your suggestion and Kan has also decided the same. Looking forward to some more aspects of Daniel 2. Daniel was very bold in suggesting that God would reveal the dream to him, even before Daniel had prayed for an answer. Also the following seems to be alluding to Daniel 2 and the stone crushing the image. It shows how we need to personally respond to Daniel 2. I understand this to teach that we need to voluntarily humble ourselves by becoming fully identified with Jesus, otherwise we will be humbled and destroyed when the kingdom is established. Thus the faithful will be incorporated within the stone.

Matthew 21:42-44 (KJV): 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

 

Kind regards

Trevor