chat with a catholic

[Katholish]

sorry for this extra reply  but would like to say that for me ===========

the death on the Cross was enough for me

the Blood of Jesus covers my sins  all of them 

to say that we need pergatory is saying that the Blood of Jesus was not enough  and it was.  The blood of the sacrifce in the old testament was enough and the blood of Jesus is enough    to say otherwise is saying that HIS death was not good enough  was not big enough was not rightious enough  ............A sinless sacrifce was not enough 

Sorry kath  but on this one issue we can not agree................

We in no way say that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient. What we are speaking of here is the application of those merits won by Christ. We are in perfect agreement about the sufficiency.

[IreneM]

hence went an infant is baptised that is it they do not get baptised again when they understand !!!

OK It is a bit differnt then the protastant church for sure.

The books of Mac. I will see if I can find on the web and read them if they are there.

Bye the way Mormans pray for the dead also.........

thanks

In Christ

IreneM

[Katholish]

Serotta,

IreneM, I think you should be careful. This is the kind of post that will lead to this being just another Catholic bashing thread. Infant baptism is not the ONLY thing necessary for salvation; that is quite simply perposterous. That's why Catholics have their first communion and confirmation at different ages. Katholish, please correct me if I'm wrong, but a child "makes his first communion" around age 9 because until then they are not able to comprehend the sacrifice the Christ made and is represented in the Eucharist. Then Confirmation is around 13, when a growing child is recognized as a full member of the parish. Infant baptism is not solely a Catholic tradition.

In the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, the sacraments are given at about the times that you mention. First confession and communion are received generally around second grade when the child has use of their reason, and Confirmation around highschool or junior high with emphasis on the person joining the ranks of the Church militant and being soldiers for Christ.

However, these sacraments do not require the use of reason, and indeed in the eastern or Byzantine Catholic rites these sacraments are all given at the same time to an infant. I believe that this is also the custom of the Orthodox Churches.

[IreneM]

We in no way say that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient. What we are speaking of here is the application of those merits won by Christ. We are in perfect agreement about the sufficiency.

Excuse me kath but that is what the church is saying. If one must spend time in pergatory it is saying just that. Sin is sin and Blood covering it is either good enough or not. Either Christ's death was sufficent or it was not!!!! When He said it is finished He did not say It is finished except for the really big sins

Sorry Kath but on this there is no commmon ground here........

In Christ

IreneM

[IreneM]

IreneM, I think you should be careful. This is the kind of post that will lead to this being just another Catholic bashing thread. Infant baptism is not the ONLY thing necessary for salvation; that is quite simply perposterous.

why do it at all.

I am not catholic bashing

Yes other churchs do it but does that make it right.??

We should be aware of what we are doing when we get baptised or it is of no effect.

We are to repent and be baptised the 2 go together how can a baby repent when then do not even know sin??

something are just not common sense........be it catholic or prodestent

to say an infint is batised then when old enought communion confession etc, why not wait to baptise when old enough ????

An honest question

In Christ

IreneM

[Katholish]

So we both recognise that Jesus died on the cross and shed his Blood in order that we might find salvation and we both agree that it is Jesus Christ that brings us to salvation, where we differ on is how we attain that salvation, am I right?

Hence, now I really don't mean to seem stupid here, but I'm still left with the question in my mind, in plain words my friend, how is it you believe you will get to Heaven?

oh yeah, what is the Beatific vision?

You are right that we agree on Christ's sacrifice as the perfectly sufficient cause of Salvation. What we differ on is the application of Christ's merits to the individual soul, or as you say, the "how" salvation is attained for us.

I am a little at a loss as to how to explain it differently than I have been trying to do when speaking about Baptism and Sanctifying Grace, but it is worth another shot.

In St. Paul's epistles, he refers to the Church as one body, the Mystical Body of Christ, which all of the members are a part. He uses the example to explain that we all have different functions in the Church, not all are called to be priests or prophets. In order for man to attain Salvation, he must become a living member of this Body. Now, the Body is the Church, so a person must become a living member of the Church. By "living" I am referring back to the idea of Sanctifying Grace, but what it really means is sharing in the Life of God or in other words, being an active part of the Body.

The sacrament of Baptism is how we become members of that Body, and join the Church.

[Katholish]

Anne, I seem to forgot your last question there.

The Beatific Vision is the direct perception of God, perfect beatitude. It is technically what Heaven is. Because God is goodness Itself, when we experience Him directly, we are prefectly happy, by perfect, I mean in the absolute sense. There would be no possible way to be more happy.

[Katholish]

hence went an infant is baptised  that is it  they do not get baptised again when they understand !!!

OK  It is a bit differnt then the protastant church for sure.

The books of Mac.  I will see if I can find on the web and read them if they are there.

Bye the way  Mormans pray for the dead also.........

Yes, I understand that it is different in most Protestant churches, though I am also under the impression that some do practice infant baptism. I would suspect that many Anglicans do, but I am not entirely positive.

As for Second Maccabees and the other six books (and parts of others), here is an online Catholic bible with them.

http://www.scriptours.com/bible/

[Katholish]

Excuse me kath  but that is what the church is saying.  If one must spend time in pergatory it is saying just that.  Sin is sin  and Blood covering it is either good enough or not.  Either Christ's death was sufficent or it was not!!!!  When He said it is finished He did not say  It is finished except for the really big sins 

"Really big sins" has nothing to do with it. No where did I imply that mortal sin could not be forgiven. Both venial and mortal sins though have temporal punishment due them that is technically a different thing than forgiveness. When sins are forgiven, that are entirely forgiven, just as Moses was entirely forgiven. Temporal punishment is a different matter though.

Our difference is in application. You say "and Blood covering it is either good enough or not". I am not sure entirely what you mean by that phrase. Do you believe that the sin remains after it is forgiven put is "covered" or do you think that the sin is removed from the soul?

[Katholish]

Irene,

why not wait to baptise when old enough ????

Good question. In fact it is the one answered by numerous Church Fathers when this issue became big bach in the 4th Century. The answer is that they are Baptized so that they can partake of the graces that are given by Baptisim, and that they may be saved if they die.

What do you beleive happens to a child if they die before the age that they are capable of making a rational profession of faith?