more indept study of Armenian and Calvinist

[Omegaman 3.0]

The thing is, as I have pointed out (by implication, if not specifically), is there there is not who seeks God

 “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

      11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
            THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

      12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
            THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
            THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

If there are none who seeks God, none who does good, not even one, then mankind's situation is hopeless.

Add to that, that there is none who even understands - pitiful!

What is needed then, is for us to somehow begin  to seek Him.

44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Yay for God. So, God acts first, and man responds.

But . . .  being drawn, does not solve the  ignorance problem, no one understands!

  12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

So, again, God to the rescue, he gives His Spirit, so that we can understand spiritual things.

So, God calls people, in general, but not everyone responds. Who responds? Those the Father draws, not everyone. Can they understand the significance of spiritual things? Again, not everyone can, only those who have received the Spirit of God.

Now, think about that a bit. Does the Spirit of God come to believers, after they have decided for Christ? One can make the case, but there is a difference between the Spirit coming on believers for empowerment to do His will in various callings subsequent to conversion, but that is not where the relationship begins.

What we just read, was that we do not understand until after we have already received God's Spirit. As I see this then:

It is God who initiates the beginning of conversion, by drawing us, otherwise we are not interested, it is all foolishness that we do not and cannot understand. Because we cannot understand, God acts again, and gives us His Spirit, now, we can grasp the issue, but . . .   we still need more. We slaves to sin, with hard hearts, and an inability to do good, so in this process of event, God gives us a new heart, a heart of flesh, not stone, and he breaks that bondage to sin, so that we may respond to Him.

Prior to that, we had no ability, no true free will, because of our slavery to sin, we needed a new nature, not that old sin nature, the flesh nature.

This all, in my opinion, falls under the category of the new birth, regeneration, born from above, born again.

Again,  in my opinion, we are born again first. We do not choose Christ, then get born again - prior to receiving the Spirit of God, we cannot choose and cannot even understand, and have not interest in the things of God.

Remember, we are not natural children of God, in fact, we are children of wrath by nature. We are adopted by God, and then have the authority to be His children. How to adoptions work? Do babies choose parents? Do the have the power to do that, the authority? Rhetorical question! No, it is the parent who choose the child to be part of the family.

Again, God chooses, and we call that election. That choice is made before the foundation of the world. All of this is Biblical, I suspect as I say these things, most of you have scripture popping into your head, this is not new stuff to you, though you may not have put it altogether in one unfolding scenario.

God chose you in eternity.
He drew you to Him
He gave you His Spirit, so that you could understand. Your eyes were opened, you ears unplugged.
He gave you a new nature, so that you could then, for the first time, not be sins slave.
He gave you a heart of flesh, it began to beat for God, because He first loved you, you reciprocated His love, and became alive after being spiritually dead.
As a born again person, you now understood you sin, you had a desire to repent, to please God, and so, you called out to Him, acknowledge you sin, and invited Him to be the Lord of your life, not even realizing, that He already was. You discovered your adopting into God;s family

God did all of that, even the faith your have, the vehicle by which you were sav by His grace, was His doing, He enabled you to beleive, that was His work, it is all His work. What was your part? Well, you sinned. then after He quickened you, you began to respond, and to grow, and that is where you are now, until He gives you a new body, and conforms you to the image of His firstborn Son, Jesus, at His coming.

Congratulations on being among the elect.

Some think, that we become His sheep when we believe, but I do not think that is what the Bible teaches. I believe the Bible teaches, that we believe, BECAUSE we are His sheep:

26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 “I and the Father are one.”

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, Joline said:

I  have a question. I cannot see how there can be any other than two views here? Either we choose or we don't. this stuff is new to me. so am I missing something? how can it not be one or the other?

How about you choose some things, but not others, how about you have choices, but there are limits in choices?

On a football field, the players have free will to make choices. However, then cannot choose to fly, because the lack the ability. The can run out of bounds, but there are rules set, and consequences for violating the rules. Remember, even if people have free will, that does not mean that God's free will is suspended.

I can take a dog for a walk, and give him a long leash, and let him choose a general direction. If I see that he is getting too close to a cliff, I might give a tug on the leash, to keep him safe, because I care for Him. So, does that dog have free will, or not?

It is impossible to have a meaningful discussion about free will, until two people agree on, what it is that they mean by the term free will.

[angels4u]

Adam was born without sin,  in which position did he have a free will, he could have refused to eat of the fruit or couldn't he?

[enoob57]

18 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Hey Stephen,

As a Calvinist, I am unaware that I am changing the meaning of some word, can you show me where you think I do that?

BTW, if you want to make accusations like that, you might want to consider being more specific. Would it be fair for me to fire a shot that cannot be defended?

Would you like it it I said: "Unlike enoob, I do not have to make baseless and false accusations against a class of believers, in order to make myself appear right, and damage there credibility!"? Get the point?

Thanks!

I do not know why your being obtuse here...   and I am not entering your lure to make this personal as I am debating
Calvinism the topic.  Everyone who has given anytime to the study knows that: any, whosoever, world, all,... etc are manipulated
by the doctrine to exit their simple meaning and place parameters upon them to mean elect only and that not found in the context
in doing so, I might add! Anyone claiming otherwise is to dishonest to debate this topic!  Love, Steven

[enoob57]

On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 4:54 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

That would be true IF

He has clearly put the choice in man's hands. If it were that clear, there would not be differing opinions on this. I was in your camp (by that I mean of the free will / we choose to accept/obey/follow God, choose one, if that does not describe your position, I am sorry) from 1979 to 2013.

Then I started really studying this issue. Now, if see things in a different light, and so much so, that I do not say I changed my mind, merely. I used to be a pre-trib rapturist, then I studied and became a post-trib rapturist. On that, I changed my mind, but this is different.

I never called myself an Arminian, tended to call myself a Calminian - having a mixture of beliefs on these matters. What is different here from my eschatological shift is that I did not just change my mind, I repented. I literally have told God that I am sorry, for not believing His word, for being too lax in my studies, and for not having bothered to sort it out long ago. I won't go so far as to call those who do not believe as I do "heretics" as the Dutch reformers did, but I understand why they did that.

We have differing understandings, clearly, but I only came to my current understanding as a result of studying scripture, so clearly, for now at least, I cannot believe otherwise unless at some point, I cease to view scripture as divinely inspired and itinerant. Thanks for your comments and observations.

Keep studying  

[Omegaman 3.0]

2 hours ago, angels4u said:

Adam was born without sin,  in which position did he have a free will, he could have refused to eat of the fruit or couldn't he?

In my opinion, yes, Adam had free will like no man since (apart from Jesus) has had!

[enoob57]

On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 11:04 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

You are correct Ezra, Calvinists do often refer to their belief system, and The Doctrines of Grace. I also agree, that Doctrines of Sovereignty, would be appropriate. It is nice to see, that even though you do not accept Calvinism, at least you have a decent grasp of what it entails. I have appreciated your posts in the thread.

Without being comfortable with God sovereignty, as expressed by Paul:

 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13 Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

      14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

      19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

I do not know why some do not see what I see there (or why for over 30 years, I could not see it), that Paul is making a very clear case that if God wants to select some for salvation, and others to destruction, then it is His divine prerogative to do so, and that we, the clay, are not in the position to question His decision.

 

For the simple fact it must be resolved with this Scripture

2 Pe 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering
to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV
as your conclusions must change what the any and all in their simple hermeneutic....

Another basic violation of Scripture of the Calvinist - is making God a respect of persons; when God clearly says
he does not

Ro 2:9-15

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
KJV

Love, Steven

[Omegaman 3.0]

2 hours ago, enoob57 said:

I do not know why your being obtuse here...   and I am not entering your lure to make this personal as I am debating
Calvinism the topic.  Everyone who has given anytime to the study knows that: any, whosoever, world, all,... etc are manipulated
by the doctrine to exit their simple meaning and place parameters upon them to mean elect only and that not found in the context
in doing so, I might add! Anyone claiming otherwise is to dishonest to debate this topic!  Love, Steven

LOL, I had to look up the word obtuse, so I guess I must be being obtuse, because I am. Further evidence of this comes from the fact, that I have little what the rest of your post just said. To be honest, I find a lot of your posts (except when you are trying to be silly) difficult to understand, though occasionaly you have some really good to say, said really well.

I think you are just so smart, that you end up talking over my head. 

[enoob57]

5 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

In my opinion, yes, Adam had free will like no man since (apart from Jesus) has had!

So after the fall all the Scripture where God and those of God saying choose is illusion  

[Omegaman 3.0]

2 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Keep studying  

I am!