A fence-sitter finally jumps off

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I just assumed you knew the scriptures I was referring to.... 

^{Romans 11:24} For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature , and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: (The Gentiles were a wild olive Branch grafted into a cultivated olive tree) how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

²⁵ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

²⁶ And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: ²⁷ For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. ( So when I say the "Mantle" was taken away from Israel and given to the Gentiles, then will be give back to Israel, verse 25 clearly points to this, Israel will SEE AGAIN, after the fullness of the Gentiles is come in. They will be given their Mantle back and Jesus will take away their sins just as Zechariah 12:10 says along with Zech. 13 1-5. )

 

Luke 24:²⁴ And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. ( Jesus is clearly saying that the Gentiles have a specific time frame that he has ordained. )

2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 how that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 

^{Galatians 1: 11} But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.  ¹² For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. (I figure Jesus and the Angels ministered to Paul)

Paul had received many visions in his life, six of which are recorded in Acts (9:3–12; 16:9–10; 18:9–10; 22:17–21; 23:11; 27:23–24). He had also received the gospel he preached by revelation (Gal. 1:11–12). But the vision he was about to describe was the most amazing and remarkable of them all. With characteristic humility, he related it in the third person, writing, I know a man in Christ. Obviously, Paul was that man, as verse 7 indicates.

The vision took place fourteen years before the writing of 2 Corinthians, which was in late a.d. 55 or early a.d. 56, putting it sometime between Paul’s return to Tarsus from Jerusalem (Acts 9:30) and his commissioning by the Holy Spirit (Acts 13:1–3). Little is known about that period of Paul’s life except that during it he ministered in Syria and Cilicia (Gal. 1:21).  Exactly what was the reality of the experience was unclear even to Paul, as the twice-repeated phrase whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know emphasizes. He did not know whether his body and soul were caught up to the third heaven or whether his soul temporarily went out of his body. Caught up translates harpazo, the same verb used of the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Paul was suddenly snatched up into the third heaven which, transcending the first (earth’s atmosphere; Deut. 11:11; 1 Kings 8:35; Isa. 55:10) and second (interplanetary and interstellar space; Gen. 15:5; Ps. 8:3; Isa. 13:10) heavens, is the abode of God (1 Kings 8:30; Ps. 33:13–14; Matt. 6:9). The parallelism of the two phrases demands that Paradise be equated with heaven (see Luke 23:43; cf. Rev. 2:7, which says the Tree of Life is in Paradise with Rev. 22:2, 14, 19, which place it in heaven).

^{Ephesians 3:2} If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: ³ How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, ⁴ Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) the Mystery was that the Gentiles would be grafted in, and given the Mantle of the dispensation of the Gospel, because of Israel's rejection of God/Jesus, and when the Fullness of the Gentiles was come in, then All Israel would be saved, (Romans 11:26, Isaiah 59:20 and Jeremiah 31:1).

 

^{Revelation 7:4} And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. ( Notice, they are Sealed with the name of the Father, the Church is the Bride of Christ Jesus. We are brothers, but they are the natural branches, w are the wild branches, they are with Jesus preaching the Gospel in Revelation in Chapter 14. We are indeed in the same Family, but even Israel had 12 different tribes, and one was set aside (Levi) to be Priests of God, likewise the Gentiles and Israelite's have a different calling and timing from God.  )

 

The First Seal is the Wrath of the Lamb, God doesn't do things out of sync, either the Seals are Gods wrath all of them, or they are not His wrath. Revelation 6:

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

 

This went long, quoting scriptures take much more space, which is why I usually paraphrase. So I will answer in another post also. God Bless

I'm not convinced. When I read the whole of Romans 11 i come to the conclusion that Paul is opposing replacement theology.  I just don't see an elevation of one group over another, or a more favored status, or a passing of the torch.  I fact it's a humbling passage that tells us we should fear God taking away our adoption, much as he in part blinded those of the natural olive tree. Something you also must remember is that all the men who preached the Gospel in the beginning, and the authors of the NT, were Jews. Any 'mantle' you refer to was passed to believers in Jesus regardless of ethnicity. We are discussing the words of Jewish preachers, the foundation of the faith we profess.

Since Paul says what he speaks comes from revelation by Jesus I will never accept that angels taught him anything unless Paul says that, specifically.

It's supposition to propose the first seal is the wrath of the Lamb. What you quoted comes after the 6th seal is opened. Rev 6:12  "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;"

After this follows what you quoted. Since, as you say, God stays perfectly in sync, then it cannot be that the wrath of the Lamb is retroactive to the first seal.

Let me quote a few passages from a book most Christians like to stay away from.

1 Peter 4:12 "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:" Clearly no pretrib rapture here.

1 Peter 4:13 "But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy." What? Partakers in Christ's suffering? This ain't pretrib. Notice how this suffering is connected to Christ coming in glory.

1 Peter 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" Judgement begins at the House of God? This is not pretrib either. Notice how Peter, a spirit filled christian, says that it first begins at 'us', as in believers. Peter references the ones who believe the Gospel here, not Jews.  The conclusion is that judgement starts with believers. And we really need it. We have all walked far away from the truth.

1 Peter 4:18 "And if the righteous scarcely(means, "with difficulty") be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" The righteous are barely saved? 

Also, we are not to say things like, "I believe this is what scripture means." This is private interpretation. A no-no.

2 Peter 1:20-21 " Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

And as an aside we must remember the constant danger we are in:

2 Peter 2:20:21 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

We have to be careful as we can turn away.

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

No, the Rapture is Not Jesus coming back to earth, to land on Mount Zion, and destroy the wicked. People get so nuanced on minute details that sometimes we miss the bigger picture, imho, Rev. 19 is what caused me to understand the truth of when the Rapture is, to be honest, I never really wondered about it that much until the Holy Spirit revealed it to me. It just hit me, all of those scriptures about post trib can be countered with sound logic. Rev. 19 can not happen, without the post tribbers logic being questioned, Jesus Comes/calls us and we have to go to heaven for a Marriage but we come back as soon as he comes. It just doesn't add up. Rev. 19 proves there has to be a calling up, us going to Heaven (unless we travel there alone (smile) then a return to earth with Jesus, the only question is do we travel to earth for a minute, a day etc. etc. or 7 Years. I don't get why the thought is anything but 7 years, and if its only a few minutes or a day, then that would be still THREE COMINGS.....Would it not ? So to speak.

 

As per the Post Tribbers main scriptures, all can be reasoned away. We do return with Jesus (Rev 19) Immediately after the Tribulation, we do see the Man of Sin before the Second Coming, but we Saints will come back with Jesus. The Saints are overcome by the Beast, but these are Saints who become Christians after the Rapture. These are all logically reasoned away. No logic can reason away Rev. 19, we Saints come back FROM HEAVEN, with Jesus, not from the air.

 

God Bless

 

 

Actually the marriage supper of the Lamb comes in the same breath as Jesus return to earth in Rev 19. But I also don't see where the marriage happens right then. The bride is 'ready' blessed are those 'called' to the great feast. The time has 'come' for the marriage supper but that looks quite general to me and not signal of commencement. Further it looks as though the bride comes with the great city after the wrath of God is complete. Rev 21:9-10 "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,"

Looks to me as though the marriage supper occurs in New Jerusalem at the end after Jesus defeats the armies of the world.

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Whether you or I have heard something before or not has no relevance to it being fiction, or truth. You have totally missed the point I made above. You are saying a main reasoning of your decision is because by using pre-tribbers logic, there has to be three comings. Then I showed how no matter which you believe, according to what you guys call three coming, there HAS TO BE THREE COMINGS, by your own admission. Lets take this step by step to bring this to light.

 

1. We are called to Heaven for 7 years, then we come back with Jesus. That is, according to your thinking "three comings".

 

2. Now, you believe in post-trib, or may be very close to believing in it. According to Revelation 19, even by Post-Trib Logic, according to your belief in "Three Comings" you still have to have THREE COMINGS................If we are in Heaven, then come back with Jesus to defeat the Beast, even if it happens after the Tribulation, isn't that still three comings ? So your main reasoning, is true for both pre-trib and post-trib, that's the point I was making. I do not think a coming to the air and calling us to Heaven is a coming, but you do, so by your own definition there will still be three comings. 

 

God Bless

You're mixing the two. A biblical view does not add a years long space between the gathering of the elect and the return of Jesus. Scripture say we are changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. This means the gathering can occur in  between when the sign of the coming of the Son of man occurs, and the rolling back of the sky when Jesus is revealed. The gathering of the elect is likely one reason for the silence in heaven for a half hour in Rev 8:1

So there is actually only one return of Jesus in Rev. And it's not a return per se. It's the revealing of Jesus in Godly form. Something none of us have ever seen.

[Diaste]

Just want you to know I'm with you in all this. I began many years ago with Hal Lindsey. Over time in searching scripture I found a great many inconsistencies in Lindsey's portrayal of the end of the age. Finally the Spirit allowed me to see many things ignored by pretrib.

Added all up only one conclusion is left, the truth.

Congrats and God bless!

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Yeah, that's really making something out of nothing.   The Bible never calls a man's father's father "grandfather" but we know there were grandfathers in the Bible.   We use the term "second coming" in modern parlance, but so what?   That doesn't contradict the Bible, nor does it do any kind of violence to any doctrine of Scripture.

 

The point being, why do yo guys make such a big issue out of SECOND COMING ? We know Jesus came back after he ascended already, that is a fact. So it is not his second coming and nowhere does it say when he returns to defeat the Anti-Christ it will be a "Second Coming" so it could be a third, fourth, etc. etc.

[Last Daze]

19 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

The point being, why do yo guys make such a big issue out of SECOND COMING ? We know Jesus came back after he ascended already, that is a fact. So it is not his second coming and nowhere does it say when he returns to defeat the Anti-Christ it will be a "Second Coming" so it could be a third, fourth, etc. etc.

The coming of Christ is only referred to as a singular event.  It is never "a coming of Christ" or "the comings of Christ."  It is "His coming" or "the coming."

Those who are Christ's are made immortal "at His coming."

We know Jesus came back after he ascended already, that is a fact.

On what do you base this "fact"?

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

I'm not convinced. When I read the whole of Romans 11 i come to the conclusion that Paul is opposing replacement theology.  I just don't see an elevation of one group over another, or a more favored status, or a passing of the torch.  I fact it's a humbling passage that tells us we should fear God taking away our adoption, much as he in part blinded those of the natural olive tree. Something you also must remember is that all the men who preached the Gospel in the beginning, and the authors of the NT, were Jews. Any 'mantle' you refer to was passed to believers in Jesus regardless of ethnicity. We are discussing the words of Jewish preachers, the foundation of the faith we profess.

 

The facts are that Jesus clearly stated the time of the Gentiles, inferring they had a set time. Paul stated they are beloved for the Fathers sake.  Israel sinned against God, and God through Daniel decree a 70 week judgment against them. The Church is saved by Jesus, the Jew refuses to believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Tribulation is designed to get Israel to call upon their God in a time of great trouble/need again. Thats why its called Jacobs trouble. It has nothing to do with one group being better than the other or different. One group, Gentiles believe on God, unless they love Satan and his ways of course, and the other group has been blinded by their sins, they can not see that Jesus is the Messiah, the 70 Week prophecy can not be fulfilled until Israel knows Jesus is their Messiah. It has nothing to do with the Jew or Gentile being different, one believes, the other doesn't. Our going through the tribulation would change nothing, we are saved by faith, through grace, Israel going through the tribulation is designed to get them to repent and call upon their God again. All Israel will be saved. It has nothing to do with preferential treatment either way. One Believes, the other doesn't. 

 

Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day....11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy......20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 

 

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. (((( I hate to repeat, but If the Fullness of the Gentiles is the Key to Israel being able to SEE AGAIN, then doesn't that say the Gentiles Job will HAVE TO BE OVER, by the time the Israelis are saved and repent and accept Jesus ?  They are beloved for the Fathers sake, he has promised to save all Israel, but they have to rid themselves of UNBELIEF. The Tribulation is clearly designed to Judge this evil world, and to call Israel back to their God. The Church is already saved, by Grace, lest any man boast. ))))

 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Since Paul says what he speaks comes from revelation by Jesus I will never accept that angels taught him anything unless Paul says that, specifically.

 

The point was Paul was taught in Heaven thus he new the Mystery which he spoke of. Not that he was taught be Angels per se, though I suspect he was, Angels showed John much of the Revelation, even though it was the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Many chapters start out with, then an Angel showed me the Judgment of the Great Harlot, then an Angel etc. etc. etc. 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's supposition to propose the first seal is the wrath of the Lamb. What you quoted comes after the 6th seal is opened. Rev 6:12  "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;"

After this follows what you quoted. Since, as you say, God stays perfectly in sync, then it cannot be that the wrath of the Lamb is retroactive to the first seal.

There were no chapters or verses in the original biblical texts. By symmetrical I meant that God is symmetrical not chronological  as in (: having sides or halves that are the same : having or showing symmetry or being such that the terms or variables may be interchanged without altering the value, character, or truth. or made up of exactly similar parts facing each other or around an axis; showing symmetry. )

No where in chapter 8 are the seven trumps called wrath, in the very last verse they are called woes. These are judgments of God on an evil earth, Jesus is opening the Seals, why would anyone assume al of them do not come from the Wrath of the Lamb ?

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

1 Peter 4:12 "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:" Clearly no pretrib rapture here.

1 Peter 4:13 "But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy." What? Partakers in Christ's suffering? This ain't pretrib. Notice how this suffering is connected to Christ coming in glory.

We know and understand all the apostles went through trials and tribulations, that was also meant for all men who were faced with the choice of spreading the gospel unto all the world. The Gospel has been spread unto AL THE WORLD. The Gentiles time is up, we will not go through the Wrath of God. No need to.

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

You're mixing the two. A biblical view does not add a years long space between the gathering of the elect and the return of Jesus. Scripture say we are changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. This means the gathering can occur in  between when the sign of the coming of the Son of man occurs, and the rolling back of the sky when Jesus is revealed. The gathering of the elect is likely one reason for the silence in heaven for a half hour in Rev 8:1

So there is actually only one return of Jesus in Rev. And it's not a return per se. It's the revealing of Jesus in Godly form. Something none of us have ever seen.

The Elect are already in Heaven when we return with Jesus.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

The point being, why do yo guys make such a big issue out of SECOND COMING ? We know Jesus came back after he ascended already, that is a fact. So it is not his second coming and nowhere does it say when he returns to defeat the Anti-Christ it will be a "Second Coming" so it could be a third, fourth, etc. etc.

It is the second time that Jesus will return to this earth and set foot upon it.   No one considers the rapture a "coming" of Christ, but rather an appearance.   In the rapture Jesus does not return to earth, but rather calls us to heaven.  The "Second Coming" is simply what we call the second time that Jesus returns to set foot on earth, bodily.

[OakWood]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You are saying that pre-tribbers ideas mean three comings. I am pointing out that by your own post trib belief, there would have to also be three comings, you just do not realize it. Rev. 19, there was MUCH PEOPLE IN HEAVEN, we marry the Lamb, we ride white horses back from heaven with Jesus, and the BEAST IS STILL ON EARTH. Now if Jesus came and got us, whether it was pre, mid or post, WE STILL WENT BACK TO HEAVEN, before we returned to fight the BEAST......How is a pre trb rapture any more THREE COMINGS than your post trib belief ? I am just astounded you can't see that point. Rev 19 means we are taken to heaven before the "SECOND COMING" Irregardless of when the rapture is.

 

God Bless

Two comings with the post-trib.

Jesus comes, collects us and passes judgement all in one visit. Technically it's three if you're going to split hairs about him toing back and fro while he does this.

But it's not like the pre-Trib where he comes with a shout, collects us and then disappears again for a while before he comes back a Third time.

The whole point about a second coming is that he has left this World for nearly two thousand years and then he returns and when he does return everybody will know about it because he is here to put the World to rights.

According to pre-Trib he returns (everybody will know about it because he comes with a shout, plus we disappear) then nothing...... the entire World carries on as before as it sails into the Tribulation.

"Wasn't that Jesus we saw?" asks the World. "I don't know" is the answer, "it can't have been because he's gone again. Oh well, might as well carry on with our wicked ways. I was almost ready to believe that he exactly exists then, but he's gone, so I must have imagined it".

That's just how ridiculous the pre-Trib scenario is!

With a post-Trib scenario, the World is already in deep Tribulation, some may even still believe that the antiChrist is a messiah of some sorts, but then the real Messiah returns and the battle begins. The first thing he does is protect us from his wrath by lifting us up in the air to meet him as he arrives. The entire World will see this and probably realise who he is - but by then it will be too late for them!