A fence-sitter finally jumps off

[OakWood]

Many of you who know me will know that when it comes to pre-Trib vs. post-Trib debate I'm a fence-sitter who has been unable to make up his mind. Both sides can be convincing, I think. (When I say both sides, I also mean the variants such as Mid-Trib, and so on)......

However, I have now jumped off the fence and I am leaning towards the side of Post-Trib - pre-Wrath.

I can't really post this thread in the 'defence of Post-Trib/pre-wrath position' thread because I'm not just defending such a position, I am actually attacking the pre-Trib position, so you can treat this thread as being similar to the 'defending the pre-Trib position, because I want the pre-Tribbers to defend their position against the criticisms that I would like to raise.

I'm raising these criticisms because my mind is not fully made up yet, but I have some serious problems with the pre-Trib position and maybe I need somebody to iron these out for me. I just can't take the pre-Trib position seriously because of these problems. Maybe I am misunderstanding something.

Now there's nothing new under the Sun, so I guess I'll be going over old ground here, but let me give you my perspective and the problems that I have with the pre-Trib doctrine.

Here goes:

1/ No real mention of pre-Trib having happened in Book of Revelation.

You would think that one of the greatest events in history would get some sort of mention in a future prophecy. People disappearing into thin air or rising up into the sky would be Worldwide news that would be talked about for years to come. Many people left behind would be eyewitnesses to the fact that something big and miraculous happened. Even if you didn't see anybody disappear yourself, you would know somebody that did and you would probably know somebody who 'disappeared'. Yet in future prophecy life goes on as normal. Nobody refers back to the 'great vanishing' or ever seems to mention it. Sure, people get persecuted, the two witnesses get killed and people celebrate their deaths by giving each other presents, people end up with horrible sores on their bodies, this happens, and that happens, and such-and-such occurs ..... but it's as if the rapture never happened so I'm actually wondering if it is actually going to happen at all... well at least not until after the Great Trib.

2/ No significant mention in scripture.

The pre-Trib doctrine was never even thought of for nearly two thousand years of Christian history until someone called John Nelson Darby blew up an obscure Pauline verse in Thessalonians and from then on it seemed to develop some sort of cult following. Yet for such an important event Jesus barely mentions it, if he actually mentions it at all..... (post-Tribbers can apply the words of Jesus to their view too). It seems to me to be something puffed-up out of nothing.

3/ Pre-Trib suggests a third coming of Christ.

So let me get this straight, Jesus comes back to take the faithful away to safety and then goes away again, but he returns again a third time. It's not even a secret rapture because he comes with a shout and a 'trumpet'. A lot of people are going to notice that. Somehow a third-coming doesn't sound very scriptural to me. I've heard lots of verbal gymnastics and excuses being made for why this is not really a third-coming as such, but no matter how much you salt and pepper it - it is a third-coming.

4/ Pre-Tribbers place great emphasis on the Church not being mentioned in future prophecy as if this somehow indicates that Christians are no longer around during the Tribulation.

Under the one-World government of the anti-Christ the Church will probably be illegal. There will be no Church as such. Christians will be persecuted and forced to worship underground. No wonder the Church doesn't get a mention. If it exists at all it will be insignificant. It's almost insignificant now as it is!

5/ Some pre-Tribbers (but not all) seem to think that the 'Holy Spirit' is the restrainer.

Now unless God is in the act of offering salvation to non-believers, we have to assume that those who are beheaded for refusing to take the mark of the Beast are actually Christians. Pre-Tribbers get round this by claiming that these people are new believers who became believers after the rapture, but with no Christians around to witness to them and no Holy Spirit to convict them, how can they ever become believers? It just doesn't ring true.

6/ Why would God rescue Christians from the wrath of evil when he has never done this before? Why do today's Christians believe that they are so special?

The only time God seems to rescue the righteous is when he rescues them from his own judgements.

Lot was rescued from Sodom because what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah was a judgement of God against the unrighteous. Noah was rescued from the Flood because the flood was a judgement of God. There was no rapture when Nero threw Christians to the lions. There was no rapture when Armenian Christians were murdered by the Turks, and even as we are in the End Times, Christians are presently not being raptured from the terrible evil of ISIS. Are Western Christians somehow more superior and more favoured by God than Christians in the Middle East are?

You could even argue that Noah wasn't rescued from the Flood at all, he simply sailed through it with God's protection but not without any struggle at all.. Yet pre-Tribbers believe that we'll all be simply whisked to safety.

I suspect that some sort of wishful thinking is at play here.

7/ Some pre-Tribbers claim that the reason they are not interested in knowing the identity of the anti-Christ is because they won't be there. Their lack of interest in studying the Great Tribulation is caused by their belief that it doesn't apply to them.

This is very disturbing. God gave us prophecy for a reason and all scripture is beneficial. Any doctrine that can cause some people to ignore certain parts of scripture is in my opinion a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and it makes me wonder if there is an important lesson given to us in the book of Revelation that we have yet to understand, and some people have been led to believe that they can ignore it.

Now I know that not all pre-Tribbers are like that and many are fascinated by prophecy, but no other doctrine that I know of makes some people feel as if certain parts of the Bible doesn't apply to them. This is my biggest concern out of all the points. It makes me wonder from which 'source' this pre-Trib doctrine actually originated from in the first place.

8/ Some pre-Tribbers think that the Church is the great restrainer.

The Church lost its power years ago. If the Church is such a great restrainer then we wouldn't be having Christian bakers being sued by homosexuals, we wouldn't have Christianity being replaced by militant Atheism, and we wouldn't have Christians being murdered and driven out of their homelands in the Middle East.

9/ Pre-Tribbers believe that God 'cutting the time short' is proof of a pre-Trib rapture.

God tells us that if the time was not cut short then no one would survive so it's clearly not referring to a pre-Trib rapture because some people will survive it. These people can't be pre-Trib raptured Christians because the Trib could go on for a thousand years and previously raptured Christians would not be affected by it.

Ever wonder why the Great Trib is only three-and-a-half years long? Why is it not ten years or fifty years, or at least one generation long? Because God has shortened it to three-and-a-half years that's why!

10/ Pre-tribbers are not playing the game

The game of life is something that we all participate in. Pre-Tribbers hope to be able to opt out of the game when the play gets too rough for them. Jesus warns us:

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Except we won't be, it seems. We have a get-out-of-jail-free-card. So Jesus must have been talking about somebody else!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, OakWood said:

7/ Some pre-Tribbers claim that the reason they are not interested in knowing the identity of the anti-Christ is because they won't be there. Their lack of interest in studying the Great Tribulation is caused by their belief that it doesn't apply to them.

This is very disturbing. God gave us prophecy for a reason and all scripture is beneficial. Any doctrine that can cause some people to ignore certain parts of scripture is in my opinion a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and it makes me wonder if there is an important lesson given to us in the book of Revelation that we have yet to understand, and some people have been led to believe that they can ignore it.

Now I know that not all pre-Tribbers are like that and many are fascinated by prophecy, but no other doctrine that I know of makes some people feel as if certain parts of the Bible doesn't apply to them. This is my biggest concern out of all the points. It makes me wonder from which 'source' this pre-Trib doctrine actually originated from in the first place.

Yes, this is very disturbing because it strikes at the heart of preparedness.  We don't have any control over how God will fulfill prophecy but we do have control over our response which is why I see preparedness as the single most important issue in eschatology.  Jesus emphasized being ready and alert, watching, being prepared.  The net effect of the pretrib fallacy runs contrary to what Christ taught.  Its been my experience that the extent of the eschatology of most pretribbers I've conversed with is "glad we won't be here for that."  They're clueless as to what to expect.  Why?  Because they've been taught they won't be here for that so why should they care.  Why should they prepare for something they won't encounter?

I have to wonder as well what the 'source' of the pretrib fallacy actually is since it promotes a mindset that runs contrary to what Jesus taught.  It doesn't even pass the smell test.  The fruit of the pretrib doctrine is a false hope and spreading it is foolish.

• Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.  Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent.  For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,  but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps.  Matthew 25:1-4
• What I say to you I say to all, ‘Be on the alert!' Mark 13:37
• But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.  Matthew 24:13

Don't be foolish.  Be wise.  Heed the words of Christ.  Be prepared to endure.  Bring extra oil.

 

[ENOCH2010]

Welcome aboard OakWood the truth has won again.

[enoob57]

6 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Yes, this is very disturbing because it strikes at the heart of preparedness.  We don't have any control over how God will fulfill prophecy but we do have control over our response which is why I see preparedness as the single most important issue in eschatology.  Jesus emphasized being ready and alert, watching, being prepared.  The net effect of the pretrib fallacy runs contrary to what Christ taught.  Its been my experience that the extent of the eschatology of most pretribbers I've conversed with is "glad we won't be here for that."  They're clueless as to what to expect.  Why?  Because they've been taught they won't be here for that so why should they care.  Why should they prepare for something they won't encounter?

I have to wonder as well what the 'source' of the pretrib fallacy actually is since it promotes a mindset that runs contrary to what Jesus taught.  It doesn't even pass the smell test.  The fruit of the pretrib doctrine is a false hope and spreading it is foolish.

• Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.  Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent.  For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,  but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps.  Matthew 25:1-4
• What I say to you I say to all, ‘Be on the alert!' Mark 13:37
• But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.  Matthew 24:13

Don't be foolish.  Be wise.  Heed the words of Christ.  Be prepared to endure.  Bring extra oil.

 

You have failed to let Scripture balance you! 

1 Th 1:10

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
KJV

1 Th 5:9

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KJV
Your preparing for a wrath from God which God says He has delivered us from  
 

[ENOCH2010]

16 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

You have failed to let Scripture balance you! 

1 Th 1:10

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
KJV

1 Th 5:9

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KJV
Your preparing for a wrath from God which God says He has delivered us from  
 

Just a thought here, could the wrath to come be, hell, the lake of fire, the second death, that all Christians are delivered from ? All Christians not just the pre-trib crowd.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Brother,,,,,,,,,,,,Oak

There are 4 options   pre? mid? post? pan?,,,,,,,,    

The 4th         It will  all pan out in the end,Praise Jesus!                                      With love-in Christ,Kwik

 

 

[enoob57]

33 minutes ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Just a thought here, could the wrath to come be, hell, the lake of fire, the second death, that all Christians are delivered from ? All Christians not just the pre-trib crowd.

To make a specific out of non specific is outside of the hermeneutic... so in standing upon the hermeneutic of the Scripture alone would be all wrath
from God.   Love, Steven

[OakWood]

2 hours ago, enoob57 said:

You have failed to let Scripture balance you! 

1 Th 1:10

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
KJV

1 Th 5:9

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KJV
Your preparing for a wrath from God which God says He has delivered us from  
 

God has promised to deliver us from his own wrath, his own judgement. We will escape his judgement. That does not mean that we will escape the trials and tribulation of evil. Go back and read point number 6 again.

[enoob57]

56 minutes ago, OakWood said:

God has promised to deliver us from his own wrath, his own judgement. We will escape his judgement. That does not mean that we will escape the trials and tribulation of evil. Go back and read point number 6 again.

your failing to rightly divide:
1. God's wrath against evil.
2. Wrath of evil against God. 
3. Natural wrath within the creation elements because of perversion of original design.  (God's curse of creation)

[Steve_S]

Wow, this post has some meat on its bones, lol.

1, 2, 3, and 6 are, in a nutshell, why I left pretrib doctrine behind long ago.

To address Enoob's scripture above, namely the second (as I don't believe the first one makes any real implications either way).

1Th 5:9  For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 
1Th 5:10  who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

I full well believe that this scripture is accurate. It is just that I do not believe that Christians suffer *God's* wrath during the tribulation. The main problem with this scripture from a pre-trib perspective is the assumption that the people who become Christians during the trib do suffer His wrath. Does this promise not apply to them as well? They would be no less bought with the blood of Christ than you or I any other Christian.