A fence-sitter finally jumps off

[enoob57]

No sense in reinventing the wheel ... This is down the line in reasoning with myself ... to arrive at the proper divisions that God speaks of
is setting a comparative to established context in the hermeneutic side by side in analysis.

Things to note in rightly dividing God’s Word
2 Ti 2:15

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

KJV

 The catching away in contrast to the Revelation of Jesus at His coming

Christ comes for His own 1Th 4:13-18 -----------------------Christ returns with His own Rev 19:14
Believers taken to Father's House Joh 14:3 ----------------Believers come with Jesus to Earth Mat 24:30
He is seen only by believers 1Co 15:52 ---------------------Every eye will see Him Mat 24:30
Earth not judged ---------------------------------------------------Earth judged Rev 20:4-5
A Mystery - 1 Co 15:51 -------------------------------------------Foretold in OT Zech 12:10
Christians taken first 1Th 4:13-18 3 Mat 13:28-30 --------Wicked are taken first Mat 25:1-13; Rev 3:8-10; Rev 4:1,
He comes to present the Church to Himself 2 Co 11:2 --He comes with His Church for judgment and to set up his

                                                                                         Kingdom Rev 19:6-9, Zec 14:3-4; Jud 1:14-15; Rev 19:11-21
Casts Satan out of heaven to earth Rev 12 -----------------Binds Satan for a thousand years Rev 20
Occurs in the twinkling of an eye 1Co 15:52------------- ---Comes to earth to do battle at specific locations Isa 63:1-3, Rev 16:16, Zec 12:9-10
Jesus descends with a shout. 1Th 4:16 8 --------------------No shout mentioned Rev 19:11-21

 

This above taken from a systematic divisional standpoint that substantiates for me pretrib biblical perspective... like I said yesterday there are three
types of wrath within Scripture... determining which type of wrath is being spoken of and then specifics (if any) then placement in prophetical text as
like subject matter is key to which outlay is right... here's a very good systematic approach to pre-tribulation Scripture and why I believe it to be the
proper understanding         <http://www.thepropheticyears.com/reasons/rapture.htm>

Love, Steven

 

[missmuffet]

Question: "What are the strengths and weaknesses of the pretribulational view of the rapture (pretribulationism)?"

Answer: In eschatology, it is important to remember that almost all Christians agree on these three things: 1) there is coming a time of great tribulation such as the world has never seen, 2) after the Tribulation, Christ will return to establish His kingdom on earth, and, 3) there will be a Rapture—a translation from mortality to immortality—for believers (John 14:1-3;1 Corinthians 15:51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). The question is when does the Rapture occur in relation to the Tribulation and the Second Coming of Christ?

Through the years three main theories have emerged concerning the timing of the Rapture: pretribulationism (the belief that the Rapture will occur before the Tribulation begins), midtribulationism (the belief that the Rapture will occur at the midpoint of the Tribulation), and posttribulationism (the belief that the Rapture will occur at the end of the Tribulation). This article deals specifically with the pretribulational view.

Pretribulationism teaches that the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation starts. At that time, the church will meet Christ in the air, and then sometime after that the Antichrist is revealed and the Tribulation begins. In other words, the Rapture and Christ’s Second Coming (to set up His kingdom) are separated by at least seven years. According to this view, the church does not experience any of the Tribulation.

Scripturally, the pretribulational view has much to commend it. For example, the church is not appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, 5:9), and believers will not be overtaken by the Day of the Lord (1 Thessalonians 5:1-9). The church of Philadelphia was promised to be kept from “the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world” (Revelation 3:10). Note that the promise is not preservation through the trial but deliverance from the hour, that is, from the time period of the trial.

Pretribulationism also finds support in what is not found in Scripture. The word “church” appears nineteen times in the first three chapters of Revelation, but, significantly, the word is not used again until chapter 22. In other words, in the entire lengthy description of the Tribulation in Revelation, the word church is noticeably absent. In fact, the Bible never uses the word "church" in a passage relating to the Tribulation.

Pretribulationism is the only theory which clearly maintains the distinction between Israel and the church and God’s separate plans for each. The seventy “sevens” of Daniel 9:24 are decreed upon Daniel’s people (the Jews) and Daniel’s holy city (Jerusalem). This prophecy makes it plain that the seventieth week (the Tribulation) is a time of purging and restoration for Israel and Jerusalem, not for the church.

Also, pretribulationism has historical support. From John 21:22-23, it would seem that the early church viewed Christ’s return as imminent, that He could return at any moment. Otherwise, the rumor would not have persisted that Jesus would return within John’s lifetime. Imminence, which is incompatible with the other two Rapture theories, is a key tenet of pretribulationism.

And the pretribulational view seems to be the most in keeping with God’s character and His desire to deliver the righteous from the judgment of the world. Biblical examples of God’s salvation include Noah, who was delivered from the worldwide flood; Lot, who was delivered from Sodom; and Rahab, who was delivered from Jericho (2 Peter 2:6-9).

One perceived weakness of pretribulationism is its relatively recent development as a church doctrine, not having been formulated in detail until the early 1800s. Another weakness is that pretribulationism splits the return of Jesus Christ into two “phases”—the Rapture and the Second Coming—whereas the Bible does not clearly delineate any such phases.

Another difficulty facing the pretribulational view is the fact that there will obviously be saints in the Tribulation (Revelation 13:7, 20:9). Pretribulationists answer this by distinguishing the saints of the Old Testament and the saints of the Tribulation from the church of the New Testament. Believers alive at the Rapture will be removed before the Tribulation, but there will be those who will come to Christ during the Tribulation.

And a final weakness of the pretribulational view is shared by the other two theories: namely, the Bible does not give an explicit time line concerning future events. Scripture does not expressly teach one view over another, and that is why we have diversity of opinion concerning the end times and some variety on how the related prophecies should be harmonized.

http://www.gotquestions.org/pretribulationism.html

[OakWood]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Hello Brother in Christ. I will add my 2 cents worth. Paul called the Rapture or Hapazo (snatching away) a mystery. But in the bible, there are deep truths that shines the light on other truths. For instance in Rev. 19, there was much people in heaven in verse 1, then we marry the Lamb, put on white linen which is the righteousness of the Saints, ride white horses back with Jesus, and guess who is still on earth ? That's right, the Beast/Anti-Christ, his Kings and their Armies, awaiting to do battle with Jesus and us Saints, even though Jesus destroys them with the Sword of the Spirit. Without Hand. Do you catch the deep truth here ? How can the church be in heaven while the wicked men of the world are still on earth, without a Rapture ? It is not possible.

 

The word Harpazo was what Paul the Apostle used, Rapio is the Latin word for snatched away or seized, Rapture comes from Rapio, so it was used by Paul almost 2000 years ago.

 

Jesus calls us with a loud voice, we who have the Holy Spirit go to meet him in the air, and we then go to the Marriage Feast which by Jewish traditions usually lasts a week. Jesus came back a few times after he descended, he told Mary not to touch him because he had not yet descended to the Father, then he told Thomas to put his hands in his wounds 8 days later. Jesus is in the midst of us all when two are more are gathered, in Spirit I know here, but still,  Jesus calling us to Heaven, is not the Second Coming. The Second Coming is in Rev. 19, and we Saints come back with him, from Heaven.

 

These are pretty much the same, will answer below.

Israel was Gods chosen people, because she sinned against God, and rejected God/Jesus the mantle of the dispensation of God's Holy Word was given unto the Gentiles, Jesus said that Jerusalem will be trodden under foot until the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled............That denotes an ending point. After the Rapture of Christians it is again upon the Jewish nation to preach the gospel, the 144,000, the Two Witnesses etc. And the Holy Spirit is restraining or Blocking Satan from bringing the Anti-Christ/Beast to power, until his time, so he is only restraining the Anti-Christ until he (Holy Spirit) is taken out of the way by God or ordered to stop blocking Satan from bringing this Man of Sin to power. I do not for one second think the Holy Spirit leaves the earth, some think so, I don't, but the tribulation is only for Seven years, the judgments last 3 1/2 years, so everyone should be able to remember that which was preached unto them before the Rapture happened. And the Saints during the Rapture are new concerts. They are the Remnant (small part of) of the Woman's Seed (Jesus was that Seed said Paul in Galatians 3).

 

So you don't think the Seals are Gods Judgments ? 6:16 clearly says that these men hid from the Wrath of the Lamb. God is symmetrical, He doesn't do things willy nilly, the Anti-Christ (First seal) Red Horse, Black Horse and Pale Green Horse are all God's Wrath, the 5th Seal is those that died by his hands, they want vengeance on those people on earth (denotes present tense, not past tense). Why would God need us to go through His wrath ? He is not angry at us. Jesus accepted Gods wrath for us. We are saved by Faith in Jesus, not by works.

I think most just say they refuse to be preoccupied with that which confuses them. I have an End Time Biblical Prophecy site on Disqus and a blog elsewhere that says exactly what country the Anti-Christ is from. So I am not in that camp....SMILE. It is important for us to know so we can warn others, many of who no doubt will be left because they chose not to serve Christ.

You can look at it like that, however that is not reality, but the reality is we will be gone before he comes to power. So either way, we are gone. 

 

God is only saying that if He had "Planned" the Great Tribulation for a longer period than 7 Years, no life would have been left. But God planned it for 7 years, not 10 or 20, that is why He is so Smart, He knows everything........SMILE.

 

We are saved by Faith in Jesus....Sorry ole Satan, Game Over. As per the verse they shall deliver you up ti be afflicted and killed. That verse is not about the Tribulation, imho, only in verse 15 does Jesus say when the end will be, and that is after the Gospel has been preached unto all the world, then the end will come. The very next verse is about the Abomination of Desolation, so the verse you cited has to be way before the end times doesn't it brother ? 

 

God Bless.

 

 

You've made some good points but it still seems to me that you've used the pre-Trib as a foregone conclusion and then made scripture fit it.

Your first point:

Of course wicked men will still be on the Earth while we are raptured but that apllies to Post-Trib just as much as it does pre-Trib. Christians endure the Trib and then they are snatched away while the wicked are still on Earth. There is nothing here that suggests we will be raptured before that. It works either way. You're just using the pre-Trib rapture as a foregone conclusion and then imagining the story to make it fit.

Other points:

Jesus calls with a shout. It's not secret, it's not subtle - therefore that is the second coming. If he comes again there is a third coming. Pre-Tribbers can't seem to get their heads around that and they attempt to ignore this second coming and pretend that it's not really a coming at all, when it is.

So what if Israel are God's chosen people. That does not mean that Christians will be raptured before the Tribulation. The Jews have always been God's chosen people so it makes no difference -and once again, it's just an assumption made to fit in with the concept of a pre-Trib rapture. pre-Tribbers claim that the time of the gentiles will be over therefore Christians have to vanish. No Jews vanished during the time of the Gentiles did they?

While all the above points show that a pre-Trib rapture is possible and it can't be ruled out, a post-Trib view fits just as well. Now when you consider that extra info as to be added to make the pre-Trib work (such as three comings of Christ) then I still conclude that the pre-Trib rapture is a fantasy. It requires a work around to make it valid. While the workaround is not unscriptural and therefore there is nothing wrong with that, you still have to add to scripture and why would you add to scripture unless you want to make your theory work? You have to assume that Christ comes to cllect us first before things get really bad, and then comes again to carry out judgement. If you'd never heard of the pre-Trib rapture you would never come to that conclusion. Wishful thinking, I'm afraid.

I'll leave you with this verse. a verse for all those pre-Tribbers who think that they won't be around to find out who the antiChrist is:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Thessalonians 2:3

 

[OakWood]

54 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

No sense in reinventing the wheel ... This is down the line in reasoning with myself ... to arrive at the proper divisions that God speaks of
is setting a comparative to established context in the hermeneutic side by side in analysis.

Things to note in rightly dividing God’s Word
2 Ti 2:15

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

KJV

 The catching away in contrast to the Revelation of Jesus at His coming

Christ comes for His own 1Th 4:13-18 -----------------------Christ returns with His own Rev 19:14
Believers taken to Father's House Joh 14:3 ----------------Believers come with Jesus to Earth Mat 24:30
He is seen only by believers 1Co 15:52 ---------------------Every eye will see Him Mat 24:30
Earth not judged ---------------------------------------------------Earth judged Rev 20:4-5
A Mystery - 1 Co 15:51 -------------------------------------------Foretold in OT Zech 12:10
Christians taken first 1Th 4:13-18 3 Mat 13:28-30 --------Wicked are taken first Mat 25:1-13; Rev 3:8-10; Rev 4:1,
He comes to present the Church to Himself 2 Co 11:2 --He comes with His Church for judgment and to set up his

                                                                                         Kingdom Rev 19:6-9, Zec 14:3-4; Jud 1:14-15; Rev 19:11-21
Casts Satan out of heaven to earth Rev 12 -----------------Binds Satan for a thousand years Rev 20
Occurs in the twinkling of an eye 1Co 15:52------------- ---Comes to earth to do battle at specific locations Isa 63:1-3, Rev 16:16, Zec 12:9-10
Jesus descends with a shout. 1Th 4:16 8 --------------------No shout mentioned Rev 19:11-21

 

This above taken from a systematic divisional standpoint that substantiates for me pretrib biblical perspective... like I said yesterday there are three
types of wrath within Scripture... determining which type of wrath is being spoken of and then specifics (if any) then placement in prophetical text as
like subject matter is key to which outlay is right... here's a very good systematic approach to pre-tribulation Scripture and why I believe it to be the
proper understanding         <http://www.thepropheticyears.com/reasons/rapture.htm>

Love, Steven

 

 

It's just more of the over-complicated stuff that made me suspect the pre-Trib in the first place. Pre-Tribbers are thinking too hard - they are making the simple complicated.

Both theories are valid but pre-Trib is more complicated and somewhat unnecessary, and I believe that's what wishful thinking does to people. ~Almost nobody had heard of pre-Trib including great Christian thinkers until Darby proposed it and such a popular and comforting theory has become widely accepted.

If it makes you feel better to think that Jesus returns wearing a banana-colored superman cape then there's nothing in scripture to say that he won't.

[missmuffet]

1 minute ago, OakWood said:

 

It's just more of the over-complicated stuff that made me suspect the pre-Trib in the first place. Pre-Tribbers are thinking too hard - they are making the simple complicated.

Both theories are valid but pre-Trib is more complicated and somewhat unnecessary, and I believe that's what wishful thinking does to people. ~Almost nobody had heard of pre-Trib including great Christian thinkers until Darby proposed it and such a popular and comforting theory has become widely accepted.

If it makes you feel better to think that Jesus returns wearing a banana-colored superman cape then there's nothing in scripture to say that he won't.

So what is your view so far or do you have one?

[OakWood]

Just now, bopeep1909 said:

So what is your view so far or do you have one?

I'm leaning towards post-Trib. I cant be certain - but with pre-Trib you have to make assumptions. Both theories are valid but pre-Trib only works if you already assume that there is a pre-Trib rapture. If you didn't know either way you would conclude that the rapture is post-Trib.

Seeing as assumptions are usually made when people already believe that they have the answer before the question is asked, I can only conclude that the pre-Trib is the weaker of the two theories.

So let's say at this stage I might be what you call a 'Post-Trib Agnostic'.

[Diaste]

On 6/10/2016 at 8:41 AM, enoob57 said:

You have failed to let Scripture balance you! 

1 Th 1:10

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
KJV

1 Th 5:9

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KJV
Your preparing for a wrath from God which God says He has delivered us from  
 

Depends on how you're defining wrath and which time space moment it occurs. Please notice that the wrath of God is what we are 'not appointed' to undergo. Tribulation and  persecution by man is another story.

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, bopeep1909 said:

Question: "What are the strengths and weaknesses of the pretribulational view of the rapture (pretribulationism)?"

This is a big part of the problem. We are to study these things for our self and not let the doctrines and words of others sway from the truth of scripture.

Answer: In eschatology, it is important to remember that almost all Christians agree on these three things: 1) there is coming a time of great tribulation such as the world has never seen, 2) after the Tribulation, Christ will return to establish His kingdom on earth, and, 3) there will be a Rapture—a translation from mortality to immortality—for believers (John 14:1-3;1 Corinthians 15:51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). The question is when does the Rapture occur in relation to the Tribulation and the Second Coming of Christ?

Beginning with the assumption that the 70th week is called 'tribulation' is where pretrib loses it's bearings in proper exegesis.  Where in scripture is this supported?

Pretribulationism teaches that the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation starts. At that time, the church will meet Christ in the air, and then sometime after that the Antichrist is revealed and the Tribulation begins. In other words, the Rapture and Christ’s Second Coming (to set up His kingdom) are separated by at least seven years. According to this view, the church does not experience any of the Tribulation.

The same mistake is made again. Making the assumption dogmatic that 'Tribulation' equates with the entire 70th is what establishes this doctrine. The bible corrects this error in Matt 24 when we see the end of the age 'great tribulation' begins after the A of D, and only after. 

Scripturally, the pretribulational view has much to commend it. For example, the church is not appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, 5:9), and believers will not be overtaken by the Day of the Lord (1 Thessalonians 5:1-9). The church of Philadelphia was promised to be kept from “the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world” (Revelation 3:10). Note that the promise is not preservation through the trial but deliverance from the hour, that is, from the time period of the trial.

How is it that we note,  "....the promise is not preservation through the trial but deliverance from the hour, that is, from the time period of the trial." ? Because pre trib says so? To make pretrib work we have to assume we do not go through the trial. What does pre trib have to say to all the 1st century saints that suffered great trials and persecution? How about all the contemporary christians undergoing persecution and death all around the world on a daily basis in 2016? Certainly pretrib is not going to suggest these are not 'real christians'? Or that somehow Western Christians are in such a special group Jesus has to save them from similar trials? One would think Lot suffered persecution and mockery as long as he lived in Sodom. Noah as well while building the ark. God only saved them from His wrath, not the persecution of men.

Pretribulationism also finds support in what is not found in Scripture. The word “church” appears nineteen times in the first three chapters of Revelation, but, significantly, the word is not used again until chapter 22. In other words, in the entire lengthy description of the Tribulation in Revelation, the word church is noticeably absent. In fact, the Bible never uses the word "church" in a passage relating to the Tribulation.

Very weak logically. Just because the various churches aren't mentioned does not give license to assume an event scripture does not mention. This is just another assumption by pretrib forcing scripture to fit wishful thinking.

Pretribulationism is the only theory which clearly maintains the distinction between Israel and the church and God’s separate plans for each. The seventy “sevens” of Daniel 9:24 are decreed upon Daniel’s people (the Jews) and Daniel’s holy city (Jerusalem). This prophecy makes it plain that the seventieth week (the Tribulation) is a time of purging and restoration for Israel and Jerusalem, not for the church.

This works if we ignore major concepts introduced by Jesus and iterated by Paul. Namely there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, all are one in Christ.

Also, pretribulationism has historical support. From John 21:22-23, it would seem that the early church viewed Christ’s return as imminent, that He could return at any moment. Otherwise, the rumor would not have persisted that Jesus would return within John’s lifetime. Imminence, which is incompatible with the other two Rapture theories, is a key tenet of pretribulationism.

This is problematic. Paul told the church that day would not come unless two events occurred: the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin. This means the pretrib doctrine of imminence is incorrect. Logically, if we do not know when an event will occur such an event could be considered imminent no matter when it took place. If the gathering is to take place with in some 42 month time period, but we don't know what day or hour, it's still imminent.

And the pretribulational view seems to be the most in keeping with God’s character and His desire to deliver the righteous from the judgment of the world. Biblical examples of God’s salvation include Noah, who was delivered from the worldwide flood; Lot, who was delivered from Sodom; and Rahab, who was delivered from Jericho (2 Peter 2:6-9).

Yes, those people were delivered, just before God himself judged and destroyed the world, Sodom and Jericho. The truth is Noah, Lot, and Rahab suffered at the hand of man before being delivered from that persecution to escape the wrath of God.

One perceived weakness of pretribulationism is its relatively recent development as a church doctrine, not having been formulated in detail until the early 1800s. Another weakness is that pretribulationism splits the return of Jesus Christ into two “phases”—the Rapture and the Second Coming—whereas the Bible does not clearly delineate any such phases.

And if it ain't expilcit, and scripture does clearly delineate, it ain't true.

Another difficulty facing the pretribulational view is the fact that there will obviously be saints in the Tribulation (Revelation 13:7, 20:9). Pretribulationists answer this by distinguishing the saints of the Old Testament and the saints of the Tribulation from the church of the New Testament. Believers alive at the Rapture will be removed before the Tribulation, but there will be those who will come to Christ during the Tribulation.

Again, 'great tribulation' only occurs after the A of D and Jesus tells us the 'gathering of the elect' is after the tribulation 'of those days'. Another thing; if these tribulation saints are the 'elect' what are the saints that are taken before 'tribulation'? Non elect? Elect means chosen. Only the trib saints are chosen. Where does that leave pretrib saints?

And a final weakness of the pretribulational view is shared by the other two theories: namely, the Bible does not give an explicit time line concerning future events. Scripture does not expressly teach one view over another, and that is why we have diversity of opinion concerning the end times and some variety on how the related prophecies should be harmonized.

Scripture teaches one truth, not several, scores, or hundreds. This is another very weak assumption designed to flummox the weak minded or those who refuse to study. This is an argument from ignorance. The writer is trying to propose a lack of evidence for opposing views, or one single truth, as evidence that one conclusion can be as valid as another.  This is not proof of anything, on the contrary, scripture teaches very clearly a single view on end time events.

http://www.gotquestions.org/pretribulationism.html

 

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, enoob57 said:

No sense in reinventing the wheel ... This is down the line in reasoning with myself ... to arrive at the proper divisions that God speaks of
is setting a comparative to established context in the hermeneutic side by side in analysis.

Things to note in rightly dividing God’s Word
2 Ti 2:15

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

KJV

 The catching away in contrast to the Revelation of Jesus at His coming

Christ comes for His own 1Th 4:13-18 -----------------------Christ returns with His own Rev 19:14
Believers taken to Father's House Joh 14:3 ----------------Believers come with Jesus to Earth Mat 24:30
He is seen only by believers 1Co 15:52 ---------------------Every eye will see Him Mat 24:30
Earth not judged ---------------------------------------------------Earth judged Rev 20:4-5
A Mystery - 1 Co 15:51 -------------------------------------------Foretold in OT Zech 12:10
Christians taken first 1Th 4:13-18 3 Mat 13:28-30 --------Wicked are taken first Mat 25:1-13; Rev 3:8-10; Rev 4:1,
He comes to present the Church to Himself 2 Co 11:2 --He comes with His Church for judgment and to set up his

                                                                                         Kingdom Rev 19:6-9, Zec 14:3-4; Jud 1:14-15; Rev 19:11-21
Casts Satan out of heaven to earth Rev 12 -----------------Binds Satan for a thousand years Rev 20
Occurs in the twinkling of an eye 1Co 15:52------------- ---Comes to earth to do battle at specific locations Isa 63:1-3, Rev 16:16, Zec 12:9-10
Jesus descends with a shout. 1Th 4:16 8 --------------------No shout mentioned Rev 19:11-21

 

This above taken from a systematic divisional standpoint that substantiates for me pretrib biblical perspective... like I said yesterday there are three
types of wrath within Scripture... determining which type of wrath is being spoken of and then specifics (if any) then placement in prophetical text as
like subject matter is key to which outlay is right... here's a very good systematic approach to pre-tribulation Scripture and why I believe it to be the
proper understanding         <http://www.thepropheticyears.com/reasons/rapture.htm>

Love, Steven

 

I don't know this is rightly dividing anything, unless it's to divide scripture from truth.  All I see are assumptions about related events and assumptions made to separate clearly related descriptions of similar events and assumptions forcing separate events into a relationship that may or may not exist. 

One thing I see alot is an apparent inability to put two and two together. If two accounts of the same event are given that differ in some details it does not equate to one or the other, or both, being false, or unrelated.  It means that the two can be merged to ascertain the whole story or compete truth. 

How is 1 Cor 15:52 related to Matt 24:30 in contrast to the gathering? Is this saying that these two events are the same? They are not.  How is it that we can arrive at the conclusion that only believers see Jesus in 1 Cor 15:52? There is no evidence in this passage to support this claim.  This compare/contrast is flawed in that 1 Cor 15:52 and Matt 24:30 are not the same event. But that's not the worst of it.

 If you're shopping for cars you would compare makes and then contrast features based on personal needs.  In this case there is a compare and contrast of Godly truth, that is impossible, it's all truth. We aren't to shop through scripture like we're inspecting cucumbers to find the best one. Scripture is God breathed. There is no 'best' truth. It's all truth. I think that website is a sad excuse for biblical truth and interpretation.

[Diaste]

On 6/10/2016 at 11:48 AM, bopeep1909 said:

It is not a salvation issue Oak so it is no big deal. TIme will tell. If we should go in the next hour or today no one is going to be shaking their finger at each other saying "See I told you so". Nope it just ain't gonna happen. Time will tell.

How do you know it's not a salvation issue? And it's certainly not an, "I told you so!" issue. What if many of those who thought pretrib was accurate suddenly find themselves confronted with the persecution? What if they then find no strength to endure because they were not ready? What if their mind changes and they realize that all their preachers, pastors and friends were wrong? What if they then think that everything else they heard about God was wrong as well? To diminish the great truth of Jesus return and the gathering of the elect to the point of dismissing the reality may be a salvation issue for a great many people. For instance, what if some who not yet accepted Jesus as Lord, but had heard of this pre trib rapture, that turned out not to be true, were turned away because they now realize the believers that kept preaching it were wrong, and therefore wrong about everything?

That would be a terrible example for others, for ourselves and would in no way glorify God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit. It is our duty to not only know the truth but to speak it, truthfully.