Suffering is it a problem?

[markdohle]

Suffering is it a problem?

 

During our ‘Self-Confrontation’ retreat on Saturday evening we had an open discussion.  These discussions tend to bring out some deeper aspect of any given retreat that was not addressed directly.  The floor was open to just about any topic that would be brought up.  The problem of suffering came up and those who shared did so deeply and with courage.  This is not surprising in the least, for this retreat would attract courageous souls, who can step out and share things deep and personal about their lives.

In math, when you add up 2+2 you always get 4.  So it is problem that is easily solved.  Philosophy seeks to find some answer to the problem of evil, but since it is still being asked, it is obvious that it has yet be solved.  Problems should be solvable, just like the problem of what is wrong with my car.  A car breaks down and we find ways to fix it.  Sometimes it may take time to figure out but in the end we do.  Until the time comes to junk it. In either case, problem solved.

In our human journey, when dealing with suffering, 2+2 does not equal four at all, but perhaps just a long row of questions marks.  So we could say (human life) + (why we have to suffer) = (???!???). 

Are problems and mysteries the same thing?  I don’t believe so.  We can confuse the terms I believe.  A mystery is something lived out and if thought about we can only go deeper into the mystery, but the journey never really is solved.  So we live one day at a time, get through it, and we live through it the next day.  Just one day at a time. 

It would be nice if we could solve the problem of heart/gut wrenching suffering yet we can’t.  We can try to fix our lives in such a way that suffering is reduced, yet there will always be people who can’t be fixed or helped in ways that we would like.  In some ways we are powerless when it comes to this mystery.  Yet we are called to minister to one another in hope and to bear one another’s burdens.  As Christ Jesus did ours and still does.

One day at a time sweet Jesus, one day at a time, is from a song.  Yet I believe it is a good prayer.  For days pass quickly, the years fly by and in the end we are here for such a short time, that all we can do is to get through the good days and bad days and those in between. 

Faith is not easy when God and the world does not work the way we would hope for and like.  To have a world where justice is workable, where the innocent do not suffer or if they do, get some kind of tangible breakthrough of God in their lives is something many long for…..yet the awful mystery is that we live in a world where the above is seldom achieved.   In many lives all people experience is injustice, slavery and suffering and then they die.  End of story, or is it?

Christians have the ‘story’ of Jesus, his life, sufferings and death.  What happened to him was unfair, unjust and truly horrible.  He died in darkness and a failure.  His followers scattered and dispirited.  Yet they lived through it, they had no choice, and in the end the unexpected happened, the impossible, he did as he promised…..He rose from the dead! 

The unexpected is in all of our futures I believe, so just one day at a time sweet Jesus, one day at a time. 

 

[enoob57]

The problem is solved very simply by God in His Word ... we chose rebellion / sin in this place! So God asks how do
you like sin's fruit? Death, disease, famine, peril, deformity, theft, lies, cheating, immorality, pestilence, hate, anger, war...
Love, Steven

[gods pilgrim]

If you want joy real joy...let Jesus come into your heart...your sin he will take away your night he will turn to day your heart he will make over anew and then come in to stay...I know this is true because he did it for me and I've never looked back...he will do the same for you if you ask him...Maggie...

[markdohle]

Thanks for the responses, yet people still suffer, how we deal with it.  I believe it is not a problem that can be solved, but a mystery that is lived through.  As Christ lived through his passion.....he asked to be spared, that the cup be taken away, yet it was not and because he did God's will....in that he lived through it, as we all must.  For all things work out for the good for those who love God, who love Christ Jesus.....though in the living it out, it may not seem so. 

Pece
Mark

[Willa]

Most people say that emotional loss and pain is worse than physical pain.  The loss of a child can be so devastating that marriages do not survive.  The rejection and loss in divorce can be equally devastating, especially as it affects children.  God hates divorce.

But physical pain can be so intense that it makes a person nauseous.  Some cry out to God for grace to endure.  It clouds thinking.  The person can't focus his thoughts. At those times it helps to have the prayers of others.  Knowing that pain will end in bliss helps to endure, as in childbirth.  Jesus endured the pain of the cross because He knew in the end He would be with His Father again.  He remembered the glory He had left which would be His again.  

Hebrews 12

ALT(i) 1 So therefore, we also having so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, having put off every impediment and the easily entangling sin, let us be running with patient endurance the contest having been set before us, 2 looking with undivided attention to the Originator and Perfecter of [our] faith— Jesus— who, because of the joy being set before Him, endured a cross, having disregarded [the]shame, and has sat down at [the] right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider carefully the One having endured such hostility by the sinners against Himself, lest you become weary in your souls, being discouraged.

[markdohle]

44 minutes ago, Willa said:

Most people say that emotional loss and pain is worse than physical pain.  The loss of a child can be so devastating that marriages do not survive.  The rejection and loss in divorce can be equally devastating, especially as it affects children.  God hates divorce.

But physical pain can be so intense that it makes a person nauseous.  Some cry out to God for grace to endure.  It clouds thinking.  The person can't focus his thoughts. At those times it helps to have the prayers of others.  Knowing that pain will end in bliss helps to endure, as in childbirth.  Jesus endured the pain of the cross because He knew in the end He would be with His Father again.  He remembered the glory He had left which would be His again.  

Hebrews 12

ALT(i) 1 So therefore, we also having so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, having put off every impediment and the easily entangling sin, let us be running with patient endurance the contest having been set before us, 2 looking with undivided attention to the Originator and Perfecter of [our] faith— Jesus— who, because of the joy being set before Him, endured a cross, having disregarded [the]shame, and has sat down at [the] right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider carefully the One having endured such hostility by the sinners against Himself, lest you become weary in your souls, being discouraged.

Thank you.  Yes I agree knowing that there is a better future, or that our suffering is not forever can help.  Yet we still have to endure, live through it even when things 'feel' hopeless. 

 

Peace
Mark

[missmuffet]

Question: "What does the Bible say about suffering?"

Answer: Of all the challenges thrown at Christianity in modern times, perhaps the most difficult is explaining the problem of suffering. How can a loving God allow suffering to continue in the world which He created? For those who have endured massive suffering themselves, this is much more than a philosophical issue, but a deep-seated personal and emotional one. How does the Bible address this issue? Does the Bible give us any examples of suffering and some indicators on how to deal with it?

The Bible is startlingly realistic when it comes to the problem of endured suffering. For one thing, the Bible devotes an entire book to dealing with the problem. This book concerns a man named Job. It begins with a scene in heaven which provides the reader with the background of Job’s suffering. Job suffers because God contested with Satan. As far as we know, this was never known by Job or any of his friends. It is therefore not surprising that they all struggle to explain Job’s suffering from the perspective of their ignorance, until Job finally rests in nothing but the faithfulness of God and the hope of His redemption. Neither Job nor his friends understood at the time the reasons for his suffering. In fact, when Job is finally confronted by the Lord, Job is silent. Job’s silent response does not in any way trivialize the intense pain and loss he had so patiently endured. Rather, it underscores the importance of trusting God’s purposes in the midst of suffering, even when we don’t know what those purposes are. Suffering, like all other human experiences, is directed by the sovereign wisdom of God. In the end, we learn that we may never know the specific reason for our suffering, but we must trust in our sovereign God. That is the real answer to suffering.

Another example of suffering in the Bible is Joseph’s story in the book of Genesis. Joseph was sold into slavery by his own brothers. In Egypt, he was indicted on false charges and thrown into prison. As a result of Joseph’s suffering and endurance, by God’s grace and power, Joseph is later promoted to governor of Egypt, second only to Pharaoh himself. He finds himself in a position to make provision for the nations of the world during a time of famine, including his own family and the brothers who sold him into slavery! The message of this story is summarized in Joseph’s address to his brothers in Genesis 50:19-21: “You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives. So then, don’t be afraid. I will provide for you and your children.”

Romans 8:28 contains some comforting words for those enduring hardship and suffering: “We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.” In His providence, God orchestrates every event in our lives—even suffering, temptation and sin—to accomplish both our temporal and eternal benefit.

The psalmist David endured much suffering in his time, and this is reflected in many of his poems collected in the book of Psalms. In Psalm 22, we hear David’s anguish: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning? Oh my God, I cry out by day but you do not answer, by night, and am not silent. Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One; you are the praise of Israel. In you our fathers put their trust; they trusted and you delivered them. They cried to you and were saved; in you they trusted and were not disappointed. But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by men and despised by the people. All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads: 'He trusts in the Lord; let the Lord rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.'”

It remains a mystery to David why God does not intervene and end his suffering and pain. He sees God as enthroned as the Holy One, the praise of Israel. God lives in heaven where all is good, where there is no weeping or fear, no hunger or hatred. What does God know of all that humans endure? David goes on to complain that “dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.”

Did God ever answer David? Yes, many centuries later, David received his answer. Roughly one millennium later, a descendant of David named Jesus was killed on a hill called Calvary. On the cross, Jesus endured the suffering and shame of his forefather. Christ’s hands and feet were pierced. Christ’s garments were divided among his enemies. Christ was stared at and derided. In fact, Christ uttered the words with which David opens this psalm: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” thus identifying Himself with the suffering of David.

Christ, the eternal Son of God in whom the fullness of God dwells, has lived on earth as a human being and has endured hunger, thirst, temptation, shame, persecution, nakedness, bereavement, betrayal, mockery, injustice and death. Therefore, He is in a position to fulfill the longing of Job: “If only there were someone to arbitrate between us, to lay his hand upon us both, someone to remove God’s rod from me, so that his terror would frighten me no more. Then I would speak up without fear of him, but as it now stands with me, I cannot” (Job 9:33).

Christian theism is, in fact, the only worldview which can consistently make sense of the problem of evil and suffering. Christians serve a God who has lived on this earth and endured trauma, temptation, bereavement, torture, hunger, thirst, persecution and even execution. The cross of Christ can be regarded as the ultimate manifestation of God’s justice. When asked how much God cares about the problem of evil and suffering, the Christian God can point to the cross and say, “That much.” Christ experienced rejection from God, saying, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?” He experienced the same suffering as many people do today who are feeling isolated from God’s favor and love.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-suffering.html

[Ezra]

10 hours ago, markdohle said:

Philosophy seeks to find some answer to the problem of evil, but since it is still being asked, it is obvious that it has yet be solved. 

True. Suffering is a direct result of sin, and primarily the sins of selfishness, greed, and man's inhumanity to man. Animals do not treat other animals as evil men treat men, which shows that the hearts of many are desperately wicked.

Ideally suffering could be eradicated if all men were saved and the love of God was demonstrated by each one unselfishly. There are enough -- and more than enough -- resources on this planet for absolutely every human being. However, evil men generally climb to the top and make sure that others suffer.  Foreign aid to suffering people has generally been appropriated by evildoers and sold on the black market, while people suffered.

Natural disasters are different, but even in those situations there are sufficient resources to help those affect. The problem is that governments function as bureaucracies and that's why we have fiascos such as what was seen after hurricane Katrina devastated huge areas of land.

Suffering will only be eradicated after Christ sets up His Kingdom on earth, followed by the New Heavens and the New Earth. Then the lion and the lamb will be at peace with each other, and evildoers will be confined to the Lake of Fire.

In the meantime God brings suffering upon His children (as He did upon Job) to refine their character and their faith. Christ suffered to leave us an example as much as to ensure our redemption, and the servant is not greater than his Master.

[enoob57]

The testing of God's fire, here, will reveal where the true intent of the heart lies...
What shall a man give for exchange of his own soul. A haunting reality of where the
source code is within us.

1 Pe 1:7
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth,
though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at
the appearing of Jesus Christ:
KJV

Love, Steven
 

[Leonardo Von]

On 6/20/2016 at 9:40 AM, markdohle said:

Suffering is it a problem?

If suffering is a problem, then as long as we are in this world we will be the most miserable of creatures (see John 16:33; 1 Corinthians 15:19), since the world lies in the evil one (Luke 4.6; John 12.31; 14.30; 16.11; Ephesians 2:1,2; 1 John 15:19).

We cannot avoid circumstances. We can, yes, control the way in which we react to circumstances through Jesus Christ, and this will make all the difference.

The same wave that can drown one, can take another to a place well above its heights (see Habakkuk 3:19).

Since the Eternal does not need anything, then the reason He created everything and keeping everything in perfect order is because in everything He has a purpose (Ecclesiastes 3:1-9). In other words, a lesson we can learn: how everything that happens to us was designed by the Eternal, tested by Him, brought into existence by Him and maintained by Him, so the most sensible attitude in each situation is to give to the Eternal:

 

·         Glory -> let individuals know Jesus (and not us) through our lives;

·         Honor -> to be able to convey everything that Jesus is to succeeding generations. That is, instead of trying to leave our own name for the history of mankind (by our beautiful deeds), let the name of Jesus be propagated by all that He has done through us;

·         The Power -> give place to the power of Jesus to happen in our life, allowing everything to be solved based on celestial excellence. Instead of being our power (or the power of the world) to give us victory, let Jesus overcome our sinful flesh and grant us, not what the world is able to give, but what the Eternal has for the Who love Him.

.

May Jesus feed our confidence in the Father, so that we do not have a single care about us, whatever it may be.