Christian Conditionalism vs Traditionalism (Rethinking Hell)

[BobRyan]

17 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, BobRyan.

1. They may argue that we HAVE bodies, but that's not what Genesis 2:7 said. It said that Adam WAS the body that was formed and given the breath (puff) of life. They are RIGHT that "we breathe air," but that implies that "we" ARE the bodies capable of breathing air.

2. No, you misunderstood what I was saying about the passage. It's not the "ability to breathe air" that's killed; it's the "resurrection of the air-breather" - the "air-breathing body" - that is killed, or rather, destroyed.

Read it again with the appropriate substitutions:

Matthew 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to destroy the [future resurrected] air-breather: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both [future resurrected] air-breather and body in gei-Hinnom.
KJV

Of course, the words "future resurrected" are added  [/quote]

 

Certainly it is true that "future resurrection" was inserted and so was "air breather" and so was "destroy" in the first part of that text -- all added into the text in that example.

And it is true that some ambiguity in Genesis 2:7 allows us to take the text either way.

But Matthew 10:28 is pretty obvious.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul  -- that ends it. Because even in your view "able to kill the body" is left in.

And so the contrast is "yes - but unable to kill the soul".

 

Yet God is able to "DESTROY BOTH" not merely kill - but destroy - both in fiery hell according to the text. 

We will probably differ at this point  -- which is fine with me  because I think this is where our differences are most clearly seen.

 

As for eternity of torture -- not possible if BOTH body AND soul are not merely killed - but destroyed - in fiery hell.

 

[BobRyan]

10 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, BobRyan.

That's nonsense. You obviously have never studied the concept of "infinity" in mathematics. Infinity is not limited at all. [/quote]

 

And when applied to the 'infinity' owed by one single sin - it is unlimited.

So also when we say God is infinite - that two is unlimited.

 

As for mathematics that is not helping your case since points on a number line represent multiple infinities -- like the multiple infinities owed by multiple sins for in some people's view of it each sin demands an infinity of torture and we have multiple sins to account for... and multiple people in that situation of having multiple sins to account for - as well.

Here too - I don't mind if this is the point where we differ - because I think most people will appreciate the detail being identified here.

Edited April 28, 2017 by BobRyan

[BobRyan]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

Its in the accusative case, which is the result and extent of the action, for example  to cut-off as in pruning a tree to bare more fruit. The result of and extent of the branch being cut -off is eternal  not the actual "cutting".

The bible also speaks of eternal judgment for example Hebrews 6:2, but it is not a judgment that continues eternally forever and ever, rather a judgment that comes to an end that has eternal consequences.

Nowhere in the Old Testament do we ever get the idea of everlasting or un-ending  punishing of a person for a crime.

Deuteronomy 25:2-3

If the guilty man deserves to be beaten, the judge shall make him lie down and have him flogged in his presence with the number of lashes his crime deserves, but he must not give him more than forty lashes.

The concept of eternal punishing does not fit the crime. It is unjustly weighed.

Paul teaches in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 that punishment of the lost: shall be punished with everlasting destruction no where does Paul teach they shall be punished with everlasting preservation.

Eternal punishing contradicts the very understanding of the word destruction.

The second death can not mean eternal tormenting because it is linked to the first death. 

From a numerical point of view [/b] first [/b] and second show that death are related terms.

Because God has the right to have His name cleared in front of His accusers.

Christ taught this concept of limited conscience physical sufferings upon the guilty:

That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. (Luke 12:47-48)

Now indeed there will be pain and suffering in the dying process for the wicked.

However, the wage of sin is ultimately death, not the suffering that is the wage of sin but death itself is the wage of sin. It is the second death .

Think about this: The Bible is the only book that promises immortality, that hope of immortality is through the gospel of Christ, that is only given to belivers of Christ. Immortality is NOT promised to sinners. Death is promised to sinners not preservation.

 

Ok that is a keeper! Nice.

 

Jude 1 - Sodom and Gomorrah are examples in "undergoing the punishment of eternal fire"

2 Peter 2:6 "Sodom and Gomorrah - condemned to destruction by reducing them to ashes"

Matt 10:28 He is able to "destroy" both body AND soul in fiery hell.

 

Edited April 28, 2017 by BobRyan

[Retrobyter]

On 4/28/2017 at 0:21 AM, BobRyan said:

And when applied to the 'infinity' owed by one single sin - it is unlimited.

So also when we say God is infinite - that two (too? = also?) is unlimited.

Shabbat shalom, BobRyan.

Yeah, but two infinities don't "cancel each other out!" THAT'S the nonsense! After all, to WHOM is the sin owed, anyway? Don't you think that God's ability to forgive FAR SURPASSES any "infinite" debt of sin we may owe? The "infinite" nature of the sin debt that we owe only comes in play when one thinks that he or she doesn't need God's help to pay it!

Matthew 18:21-35
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
KJV

Oh, and according to this parable, the debt is huge, greater than the servant could hope to pay, but that is technically NOT "infinite!"

We also read...

Matthew 12:15-32
15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;
16 And charged them that they should not make him known:
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world (Greek: aioon = "age"), neither in the world to come.
KJV

The "blasphemy (belittling) against the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God)" means to humiliate God and demean His ABILITY to forgive sin! It's a "catch-22" scenario and is truly ironic! Either God can forgive any sin or blasphemy, OR your "God" is too small to be able to forgive the sin or blasphemy! Get it? It's not that God CAN'T forgive the blasphemy against the Ruach haQodesh; it's that, when one belittles God's ability to forgive, the PERSON WON'T believe that he or she will obtain forgiveness if he or she DOES ask, and therefore, WILL NOT ask! THAT'S the irony!

Otherwise, however, there is NO sin that God can't forgive, and, thanks to His Son's sacrifice, the exchange can be made and God can do so without compromise:

2 Corinthians 5:17-21
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ (who Himself has exchanged places with us through Yeshua` the Messiah), and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation (exchanging places);
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself (exchanging places with the world), not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation (the message about exchanging places).
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead (on the Messiah's behalf), be ye reconciled to God (you exchange places with God).
21 For he (God) hath made him (the Messiah) to be sin for us, who (the Messiah) knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him (in the Messiah).
KJV

This last verse, verse 21, shows the Great Exchange: The Messiah became "our sin," in spite of His righteousness, and was put to death on the cross, fulfilling the Law, "the wages of sin is death."

We, on the other hand, become "God's righteousness in the Messiah," in spite of our sins, and are thus freed to become children of God!

Without this exchange, God's justification of us (our "salvation") would not be possible.

Quote

As for mathematics that is not helping your case since points on a number line represent multiple infinities -- like the multiple infinities owed by multiple sins for in some people's view of it each sin demands an infinity of torture and we have multiple sins to account for... and multiple people in that situation of having multiple sins to account for - as well.

Here too - I don't mind if this is the point where we differ - because I think most people will appreciate the detail being identified here.

Ummm... No. Points on a number line represent exact numbers that are finite. The "infinities" lie in the numbers BETWEEN points on the number line and in HOW MANY POINTS THERE CAN BE on a number line. That's what the arrow heads represent. A number line is a visual, two-dimensional representation of a range of numbers. The arrow head to the left means that the numbers go on negatively infinitely, and the arrow head to the right means that the numbers go on positively infinitely. However, the points on the number line represent numbers, such as "1," "2," and "3," that are each finite and exact. The numbers between points might represent...
"1.4," "2.3," "3-1/3," "pi," etc. These numbers, too, are exact and finite, even though they don't lie upon the marked points that represent the counting numbers. One really should know what constitutes "infinity" and what does not!

Edited April 29, 2017 by Retrobyter
to elaborate on God's Great Exchange

[BobRyan]

On 4/29/2017 at 1:45 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, BobRyan.

Yeah, but two infinities don't "cancel each other out!" THAT'S the nonsense!

[/quote]

If you are talking about Math and asking if infinity - infinity is 0 provide we are talking about the same term for infinite torture. It is only if you redefine the infinities so that one of them is not torture - that you might get a non-zero result.

 

So then we are back to infinity of torture - infinite torture - means "debt paid" -- exactly.

God's justice demands exact debt paid. And as Luke 12 points out - it is not infinite debt but rather finite quantified debt where some owe less than others.

Luke 12

 ⁴⁵ But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, ⁴⁶ the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. ⁴⁷ And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. ⁴⁸ But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. 

 

On 4/29/2017 at 1:45 AM, Retrobyter said:

 

After all, to WHOM is the sin owed, anyway? Don't you think that God's ability to forgive FAR SURPASSES any "infinite" debt of sin[/quote]

Forgiveness does not come in the form of deleting the penalty of the law - but rather paying the penalty the law demands - in our place. Substitutionary atoning sacrifice in our behalf -- our debt paid. Rather than law deleted - law ignored - penalty ignored. 

If the solution was simply "forgive by ignoring the penalty that the law demands" - then there was no need for the Isaiah 53 "sin offering" of Christ becomes sin "for us" and takes the penalty, the punishment, that we owe.

God is not getting "paid" on the cross - He is getting tortured "more". It is the penalty that the Law of God demands that is getting paid - with the result that the law is upheld... which is always the case for any law where its penalty cannot be ignored - but must be paid in full.

 

[BobRyan]

On 4/29/2017 at 1:45 AM, Retrobyter said:

 

Ummm... No. Points on a number line represent exact numbers that are finite. The "infinities" lie in the numbers BETWEEN points on the number line and in HOW MANY POINTS THERE CAN BE on a number line.  

Which is my point about multiple infinities. For example there is infinity between 1 and 2. and infinity between 2 and 3. Etc. So then the concept of mulitiple infinities is present in math. At the same time - all that is contained within the range of 3 --- can be subtracted from all that is contained in the range of 3 to get a result "0"  -- which contains no infinities at all. 

 

The legal "debt" of infinite torture - can only be paid in full by an infinite God. And it only pays for one such debt.

But this is not what the Bible claims is the "debt" for a sin, or even all the sins of one sinner.

Christ "paid our debt" - in full.

Edited May 1, 2017 by BobRyan

[Hawkeye]

Humor relief...

 

http://babylonbee.com/news/driver-cuts-off-annihilationist-told-go-hell-brief-period-time/

[Hawkeye]

If you truly believe that Jesus was our penal substitute, then CI is the only logical path.

 

Edited August 6, 2017 by Hawkeye

[DarrenJClark]

On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 5:40 AM, LuftWaffle said:

How easily have we become accustomed to apply a filter to the bible and to autoreplace life with heaven and death with hell. All I'm saying is that perhaps the filter should be abandoned. Perhaps life should just mean life, and death should just mean death.

I agree.

[DarrenJClark]

On ‎8‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 3:36 PM, Hawkeye said:

If you truly believe that Jesus was our penal substitute, then CI is the only logical path.

 

Nice.