Does God will that some of his children be raped, tortured, or murdered?

[spiderman1917]

9 hours ago, RustyAngeL said:

And you are still rambling.

Actually im bringing up points very valid and obvious,  with which many people refuse to answer the questions or say "God gives us free -will , you must want people to be robots ".  

To keep us safe from the devil and deliver us from evil would not be a violation of free -will , for we pray for that in the Lords prayer. 

God would not violate our free will, if he restrained the Devil,  gave us clear messages,  gift of healing,  prophecy,  wisdom,  strength,  understanding,  etc.  So the argument about free-will,  or me wanting God to make robots out of us is completely irrelevant to what im saying. 

The mystery of evil is a mystery (impossible to understand ).   The fact that God wants the evil and atrocities to take place is not a mystery.... It is OBVIOUS! 

 

Edited August 18, 2016 by spiderman1917

[spiderman1917]

11 hours ago, RustyAngeL said:

I gave a very complete answer.

Absolutely not... Your answer was free -will and I've explained how nothing I'm suggesting is a violation of free-will .  

Is it a violation of free -will for you to not let a rabbid wolf in the same room as your child?   

No it is not.   Therefore it is not a violation of free-will if God protects us from Satan.   God is right in all his ways. 

Revelation 20:3 ►
"He threw Satan into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free"...
 

So,  if Obama sets a terrorist free from prison,  knowing in advance he will kill countless innocent people,  Obama wants it to happen. 

Likewise,  God will release Satan from prison (temporarily )  knowing he will steal,  deceive,  confuse,  poison,  rape,  kill,  and destroy.... That is what Satan does and God knew that is what he would do while he was creating the "Ancient Serpent ".

So, the biggest factor in whether the nations were deceived was whether or not Satan was locked up....

After 1,000 years (without the drama it probably got rather boring ),  God put the wolf back in the sheepfold to harass, attack, lead astray, torment, deceive, steal, destroy, enslave,  and kill.... Obviously God wants it.

But the question is " does God want some of his children raped,  tortured,  and murdered?"  Of course he does.   It's obvious.   

Did God do anything wrong?   No. 

Some say I accuse God of evil.  That is False!     If I drowned  babies and children that never sinned, that is  evil,  but God  drowned innocent babies and children (who never sinned ), in the flood , and it was noble and holy. 

If I killed the first born in Egypt it would be evil.   God killed the first born and it was Holy. 

If I ordered soldiers  to annihilate a city , including women and children,  that would be evil.   God ordered the Israelites to do so and it was good. 

If Job were alive today and I told Satan "have you considered God's servant Job... Kill his family and destroy his possessions "  that would be evil.  

God pointed Job out to Satan and gave him permission to kill his family and it was very good for Job and for God that it happened. 

Nothing God does is wrong. Hallowed be his name!  

 

Edited August 18, 2016 by spiderman1917

[RustyAngeL]

Spiderman,

I love you as a brother in Christ. 

But I believe that it is a fact we live in a broken and fractured world.  It is part of the free will that God gave us.  Without the Holy Spirit in people decisions are not always going to be the decisions that God would want us to make.

We as believers don't always make the decisions that we should.  But we have a Heavenly Father that we can go to and ask forgiveness.  We can repent and get it right.  

As I said God's heart breaks with every evil thing that happens, yet it that free will, that gift that can be so devastating.  He doesn't plan it but it happens.  We are never going to see a perfect world until we have and live in that new Heaven and New Earth.  

In the meantime our job is to spread the word of God and preach the Gospel.  To walk circumspectly and upright and not a fools as it says in Ephesians.

My hearts desire is to see revival in this country.  I want to see it spread like wildfire.  Over 100 years ago, I believe in 1906 there was a revival in Los Angeles Ca.  It was called the Azua Street Revival.  Look it up.  People were changed forever and that part of LA saw hundreds come to Christ.  Wouldn't it be glorious to see the same thing happen here in our country right now.  I still think about my friend who died without Christ..  I don't ever want to see that again.  It is horrifying to think that after all I shard with her she still rejected it, and is now in that place of outer darkness forever.  She has been gone over two months and her eternity is only beginning and there will never be an end.  It's something that I will live with for the rest of my life.

There is a time that comes when people continue to reject the truth and it becomes impossible for them to make a decision for Christ.  Their heart becomes to hard.  That is free will in it's worst state and yet it is still part of that gift.

Blessings, RustyAngeL   

[spiderman1917]

And I love you as a sister in Christ,

We just have a different understanding in Scripture.  That is very common among Christians, almost the rule rather than the exception (in the examples I've seen.)  I would like to see a revival too, but for that to happen requires God to enlighten and strenghten people more with the gifts of understanding, wisdom, prophecy, knowledge, holy-boldness (Fearlessness) healing, exorcism, and signs and wonders.  Such graces are often what lead to conversions...many people in our "Enlightened" world require more evidence than reading an ancient text that people are divided about and haven't reached an agreement on after so many centuries of studying it (We are more divided now than we were 1500 years ago).

 

We don't have to agree with God, and the name Israel means Contender (one who fights with) God. Moses clearly thought  Yahweh's plans of leading the Israelites out of Egypt to destroy them in the wilderness was plain irrational, cruel, and ridiculous.   He contended with God, and Scripture says "God repented"

Exodus 32:14
King James Bible
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Hence, it is very important Moses wasn't okay with God's decision and Got him to change his mind.  It is also okay that we don't agree with God when he does what goes against our conscience!

 

 

Edited August 18, 2016 by spiderman1917

[Guest shiloh357]

19 hours ago, spiderman1917 said:

So,  according to scripture, does God have the ability to lock Satan up any time he decides?

If the answer is yes,  that means God has control of the destruction Satan can cause and that God wants Satan to rape,  kill,  decieve , steal,  destroy,  confuse,  tempt,  and torment. 

If you let an animal enter the same room as your child knowing the animal will attack your child, it is because you want it to happen. 

God doesn't have to let the Devil lead people astray.   

Speaking of the word of God,  the word of God says Satan had to ask God for permission to kill JOb's family...if I give someone permission to kill my family it's because I want them to. 

... I'm not saying  it was a bad thing that he did, because it created great glory and Beauty in the end.

That isn't the question of the thread,  whether or not it is wrong.... Nothing God does is wrong. 

But the question was,  does God want some of his children tortured and killed?   The  answer is yes,  and he wanted his only son tortured , humiliated, and killed. 

You are denying the obvious. 

I've also come so close to drowning  that I was blind from oxygen deprivation when I reach land and could barely walk.    

Drowning is a scary torturous way to die,  and God drowned an enormous amount of babies and children who never sinned against him (in the flood). 

So,  clearly God wanted them to die in away that I certainly consider torture. 

Does that make God wrong?   No!   I can't accuse the definer of the word good to be mistaken about what is good.

Please answer :  Can God lock up Satan any time?   If your answer is,  yes,  then obviously God wants Satan to harm people.   It is as irrational to say otherwise as it would be to let a snake in a cage with your pet,  knowing he would eat it and then claiming you didn't want it to happen

The question of this thread never was whether God is wrong.   He wants us to suffer and die, and that is very good.   

 Hallowed be his name! 

It would appear from having read your responses, that you really didn't' want answers to these questions.  They are not genuine questions, they are really just accusations dressed up in the form of questions that you have already answered for yourself.

I would take the time answer these, but it a appears that you would only mock the answers.

[spiderman1917]

51 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

It would appear from having read your responses, that you really didn't' want answers to these questions.  They are not genuine questions, they are really just accusations dressed up in the form of questions that you have already answered for yourself.

I would take the time answer these, but it a appears that you would only mock the answers.

I've read the answers... They don't make sense... Did God create the monster (Satan) knowing what he would do?  Could he have easily kept the monster somewhere else? ...  

If you let a monster in the same room as your children,  knowing it will tear them to pieces,  how could you claim you didn't want it to happen?   

It doesn't take long to answer that question... And I eagerly await your answer 

Edited August 18, 2016 by spiderman1917

[Omegaman 3.0]

44 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

It would appear from having read your responses, that you really didn't' want answers to these questions.  They are not genuine questions, they are really just accusations dressed up in the form of questions that you have already answered for yourself.

I would take the time answer these, but it a appears that you would only mock the answers.

That is my impression also. Answers are given, all rejected, and from the one posing the question, it seems obvious that no answer will be satifactory, because he has already concluded with his mind, that only what he thinks is a rational conclusion. The only reason I suspect, that he has not moved one is that he enjoys the debate more than he requires an answer. 

Why does one do that? I do not know. Perhaps one needs others to agree, perhaps one needs others to validate a person. I will give him credit though, his conclusions are not without merit, and he is willing to face to obstacles that are challenging. 

To me, this thread seems to display a polite combativeness, and a need to be right or to hold on to cherished ideas, and that is not limited to one person in the thread.

I am going to make a reply, one that answers as best I can, acknowledging that I cannot answer it in  a way that I think many, if any, will find acceptable.

The examples given, are basically hypothetical traps to make us put ourselves in God's place, and then reason from there. The flaw in that, is that it is not a reasonable thing for us to do. We do not see the big picture. We do not know the facts that God has access to. If we did, we would evaluate them with a weak and sinful mind and because of that, we are unlikely to arrive at a sound conclusion, or if we even could manage to do that, we should not have confidence in our answers. We do not even really know right from wrong much of the time, intellectually or morally.

The best we can do, is accept what scripture says, agree with God that He is right (morally, intellectually and by authority) and move on in submission, even if we do not like what He says or feel dissatisfied with it. We  are just clay, just servants, and while we may wonder, we have no right to challenge God's mind and purposes, nor do we have the ability to accurately assume what they might be.

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 8/13/2016 at 9:37 PM, spiderman1917 said:

Nothing torments  my mind  more than to hear about innocent children being raped, tortured, or murdered.   

For whatever mysterious reason however,  God gives the devil permission to do so,  so it seems undeniable to me he wants it to happen.   How can you give someone  permission to harm your child if you don't want them to? 

I Think you may have a faulty conclusion there. I do not see where it necessarily follows that God is giving the Devil permission to do anything. Natural disasters can occur, because of the curse God placed on creation, they could occur as specific acts of judgement. Somethings perhaps occur as results of "natural law" that has been placed on creation and are just cause and effect or perhaps even random. These things can happen apart from the devil. Edit: (By the way, I recognize after re-reading your post, that you acknowledge that God allows people, not just the Devil, to commit evil) End Edit

Same  holds true for the cruel and evil acts of mankind. We are sinners, every one of us, even you. When you and I have do things that defy God's will, or hurt others in some way, we do that as a matter of our own sin, there is no "the Devil made me do it" excuse. If the Devil did not exist, horrible things would still be happening because people are sinners. 

For reasons of your own, you have categorized  the raping, torture, and murder of children, as more torenting  to your mind than hearing of a secretary stealing a paper clip from her workplace.  I share that feeling, but sin is sin. Anything that falls short of God's perfection, is enough for a person to spend eternity separated from God. I ask, which is worse - an eternity of agony for stealing a paperclip, or the tempory suffering of a child?  Does stealing a paper clip torment your mind? It should, as an eternity of torment for anyone, is a horrible thing.

By the way, although a child my not deserve (in your mind) such things as being tortured, that child is NOT innocent. Children are sinners also, guilty - not innocent. 

The Devil is not the reason we have sin in the world:

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-
Romans 5:12

So, I think you might conclude, that God is not (necessarily) giving permission for the Devil to do these things. People do things apart from the Devil. Does not give us permission to do that? No, He does not. He commands us to love Him, and to love others. Outside of that, is not not giving us permission. Does He allow things to happen that do not please Him? Sure He does. If He did not, there would be no sin. All who sin, will be separated from God, find their end in the lake of fire, unless God soveriegnly chooses to rescue them, by saving them because of the grace He shows to some of us.

To your general concern about whether it is God will that certain thing happen:
Of course if is obvious that God allows certain things to happen. It is obvious that He has the power to prevent that. It is obvious that He does not prevent that. In that sense, yes, it is God's will, if we assume that He has the power to stop it, but chooses not to.

It does not follow however, that this is something that God WANTS to happen, or something that pleases God, that is a leap to an unwarranted conclusion. God desires all to repent, and come to salvation, but that is NOT the way it is. God has His reason, that He does the things He does, and we are not privy to His mind beyond what He has allowed us to see. Basically, it is none of our business. He gets to judge us, not the other way around. He is not there to measure up to what we expect of Him, we are here to measure up to His expectations.

He is the potter, we are the clay. He allows us to think of Him in terms that are not flattering - but He is perfect even if we do not like some of His decisions. You have rightly pointed out in your posts, that whatever Gofd does is good. In that, you are recognizing His soveriegnty. That is a good thing, When we fully have faith in His wisdom, love, goodness, etc, and when we truly recognize His soveriegnty, we no longer feel the need to question God, we trade in our doubts, and by faith, trust that the God of the universe, will do what is right.

As far as God wanting things to happen, being evidenced by what He allows, I do not think that follows. As a father of 5, there were many times that I let my kids do something, that I thought was not in their best interest. I allowed them, but that does not mean I desired the results. It also does not mean that I caused them to happen, or that I loved them any less. I had my reasons or permitting things, and I did not have to explain my reasons. I suggest that we do the same, and cut our Father some slack, knowing that He knows best, whether we fathom the reason of His decisions or not.

[spiderman1917]

2 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I Think you may have a faulty conclusion there. I do not see where it necessarily follows that God is giving the Devil permission to do anything. Natural disasters can occur, because of the curse God placed on creation, they could occur as specific acts of judgement. Somethings perhaps occur as results of "natural law" that has been placed on creation and are just cause and effect or perhaps even random. These things can happen apart from the devil. Edit: (By the way, I recognize after re-reading your post, that you acknowledge that God allows people, not just the Devil, to commit evil) End Edit

Same  holds true for the cruel and evil acts of mankind. We are sinners, every one of us, even you. When you and I have do things that defy God's will, or hurt others in some way, we do that as a matter of our own sin, there is no "the Devil made me do it" excuse. If the Devil did not exist, horrible things would still be happening because people are sinners. 

For reasons of your own, you have categorized  the raping, torture, and murder of children, as more torenting  to your mind than hearing of a secretary stealing a paper clip from her workplace.  I share that feeling, but sin is sin. Anything that falls short of God's perfection, is enough for a person to spend eternity separated from God. I ask, which is worse - an eternity of agony for stealing a paperclip, or the tempory suffering of a child?  Does stealing a paper clip torment your mind? It should, as an eternity of torment for anyone, is a horrible thing.

By the way, although a child my not deserve (in your mind) such things as being tortured, that child is NOT innocent. Children are sinners also, guilty - not innocent. 

The Devil is not the reason we have sin in the world:

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-
Romans 5:12

So, I think you might conclude, that God is not (necessarily) giving permission for the Devil to do these things. People do things apart from the Devil. Does not give us permission to do that? No, He does not. He commands us to love Him, and to love others. Outside of that, is not not giving us permission. Does He allow things to happen that do not please Him? Sure He does. If He did not, there would be no sin. All who sin, will be separated from God, find their end in the lake of fire, unless God soveriegnly chooses to rescue them, by saving them because of the grace He shows to some of us.

To your general concern about whether it is God will that certain thing happen:
Of course if is obvious that God allows certain things to happen. It is obvious that He has the power to prevent that. It is obvious that He does not prevent that. In that sense, yes, it is God's will, if we assume that He has the power to stop it, but chooses not to.

It does not follow however, that this is something that God WANTS to happen, or something that pleases God, that is a leap to an unwarranted conclusion. God desires all to repent, and come to salvation, but that is NOT the way it is. God has His reason, that He does the things He does, and we are not privy to His mind beyond what He has allowed us to see. Basically, it is none of our business. He gets to judge us, not the other way around. He is not there to measure up to what we expect of Him, we are here to measure up to His expectations.

He is the potter, we are the clay. He allows us to think of Him in terms that are not flattering - but He is perfect even if we do not like some of His decisions. You have rightly pointed out in your posts, that whatever Gofd does is good. In that, you are recognizing His soveriegnty. That is a good thing, When we fully have faith in His wisdom, love, goodness, etc, and when we truly recognize His soveriegnty, we no longer feel the need to question God, we trade in our doubts, and by faith, trust that the God of the universe, will do what is right.

As far as God wanting things to happen, being evidenced by what He allows, I do not think that follows. As a father of 5, there were many times that I let my kids do something, that I thought was not in their best interest. I allowed them, but that does not mean I desired the results. It also does not mean that I caused them to happen, or that I loved them any less. I had my reasons or permitting things, and I did not have to explain my reasons. I suggest that we do the same, and cut our Father some slack, knowing that He knows best, whether we fathom the reason of His decisions or not.

That was the first good answer yet,  and although I disagree,  doesn't mean I dismiss it.   Just  because I disagree with the answers doesn't mean I'm not looking for the answers. 

I agree,  there is much good God wants us to do and it grieves him to see much of the wickedness in our world,  but Scripture says that the Devil deceived the nations. 

The Devil confusing the nations has  a huge impact on how people behave and how many atrocities are committed.   

The one who created the monster and gave it freedom, authority , and power , knows the consequences that will result , and is absolutely asking for it. 

What also contributes to the confusion is the wisdom,  understanding,  and healing he could give all people freely yet doesn't .

Many people sincerely seeking the truth and putting God first in their lives are very confused. 

God holding back his grace has an ENORMOUS impact on our behavior, and the result is  a church quite loaded with sick,  blind,  confused, disordered ,wounded people .

For example,  a lot of homosexuals hate the way they are and pray for a healthy sexuality.

 I know one who lives out in the woods as a hermit, away from temptation,   praying without cease that God would make him well , and feeling like a sick demented leper. 

God can give people healthy sexualities and emotions and it wouldn't cost him a penny.  If you curse your child,  you are partially responsible for his behavior. 

Having  met many sociopaths, I'm very convinced that many of them do not have control of the fact that they are unable to feel Compassion  or empathy, or constantly haunted with the temptation to hurt people. 

Until God works a miracle for them,  I see no hope for them getting well. 

Back to what I said ,  if you are with your daughter,  (as God always is),  and you see her getting in the car with someone you know will kill her ,  and you could warn her in advance not to,  then you want it to happen.   

It violates no ones free will to speak up. 

However,  why God wants it to happen is an unfathomable mystery  as complicated as trying to number the stars,

 but saying he wants that to happen sometimes is just not a mystery or complicated,  but quite obvious.  

He wanted his son to be stripped down naked,  humiliated,  spit upon,  lacerated,  mocked,  crowned with thorns,  crucified,  and pierced with a lance.  It was the destiny God had for him many centuries in advance and the method by which he was glorified and sin atoned for. 

God could have forgiven us without his son being tortured and brutally murdered.  But that was the best way in God's eyes,  therefore it was good, glorious,  and beautiful. 

But thanks for the answer, and it was good and thoughtful.    

 

Edited August 18, 2016 by spiderman1917

[RustyAngeL]

3 hours ago, spiderman1917 said:

And I love you as a sister in Christ,

We just have a different understanding in Scripture.  That is very common among Christians, almost the rule rather than the exception (in the examples I've seen.)  I would like to see a revival too, but for that to happen requires God to enlighten and strenghten people more with the gifts of understanding, wisdom, prophecy, knowledge, holy-boldness (Fearlessness) healing, exorcism, and signs and wonders.  Such graces are often what lead to conversions...many people in our "Enlightened" world require more evidence than reading an ancient text that people are divided about and haven't reached an agreement on after so many centuries of studying it (We are more divided now than we were 1500 years ago).

 

We don't have to agree with God, and the name Israel means Contender (one who fights with) God. Moses clearly thought  Yahweh's plans of leading the Israelites out of Egypt to destroy them in the wilderness was plain irrational, cruel, and ridiculous.   He contended with God, and Scripture says "God repented"

Exodus 32:14
King James Bible
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Hence, it is very important Moses wasn't okay with God's decision and Got him to change his mind.  It is also okay that we don't agree with God when he does what goes against our conscience!

 

 

I believe it just takes praying believers.  People willing to get on their knees, repent and speak the truth, the Gospel of Jesus Christ.