1st and 2nd Seal Opened? How can we know?

[WilliamL]

On 8/19/2016 at 6:22 PM, Ezra said:

On 8/19/2016 at 5:07 PM, WilliamL said:

Personifications cast into the Lake of Fire?

Death and Hades riding on a pale horse?  Has anyone seen such a spectacle literally?  Will anyone see such a spectacle literally?  Yes, they are personifications as are all the other horsemen of the Apocalypse.

When you start denying and explaining away things in Revelation, where do you stop? Are the "living creatures" that show John the horses and their riders also personifications, not real spirits? Is the slain lamb not a reality? Are the 24 elders personifications? Ezra, you can explain away everything in the Book of Revelation once you get started along this line, and some people do. But those who do are simply blinding themselves to spiritual realities:

Eph. 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in the heavenly places.

1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural [lit. soulish] man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

If you want to deny the reality of these spiritual principalities, seen by John in the form of riders going forth to cause havoc upon the earth in the Last Days, then you are not receiving the things provided by the Spirit of God. You are thinking like a soulish man, bereft of spiritual sight.

 

[Diaste]

23 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I couldn't agree more with supernatural / natural cause and effect you state.  That principle has proven invaluable in helping discern certain aspects of prophecy.  In Revelation we see the activity of three primary evil beings, the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet.  The dragon is Satan.  The beast is an evil angel because he comes up out of the abyss which is never associated with humans, and the false prophet is the only human of the group.  The interplay between them that I see is that Satan gives the evil angel beast his power, throne, and great authority and then enters the false prophet for the purpose of deceiving the world with supernatural signs.

As to the first seal being opened, the only indication of such would be seen in the effects.  I believe that the beast is a prince like those that are described in Daniel 10, ie prince of Persia, prince of Greece.  I see him as the evil angel in charge of bringing about the feet of iron and clay kingdom in Daniel 2.  The description of that kingdom, a multinational, multicultural one, fits the U.N.  Globalization is conquering national sovereignty.  Truth is under siege.  Global economies vulnerable.  The whole globalization push has been a protracted, multi-faceted conquering of national and individual independence and to me, is evidence of a specific spiritual agenda manifesting in the natural realm brought about by the beast.

The certainty of the first seal being opened, as I see it, lies in recognizing the existence of the feet of iron and clay and the covert conquering taking place through that global structure.

Pretty much agreed here except for one point and an alternative explanation.

First the point: Why is it the beast must be an evil angel from the pit, and have nothing to do with a person? What if this evil angel you cite indwells a person? It's possible this evil angel is just a spirit and needs a physical body to preform it's duties. Lots of precedent for that scenario. Maybe this is what you meant and I just didn't see it.

Instead of any country, or group of countries, or organization or group of organizations, making up the beast empire, and precluding a resurrected empire from the distant past and long dead, what if this beast empire was based purely on ideology and not politically connected to any other entity? I just don't see the rider of the first seal as a political entity. Mostly politics is about retaining power in the particular entity. We don't see imperialism and expansionism any more. It's more about economics and survival. What is always in my mind is the proclivity of the beast and his empire to subjugate and kill and destroy. The idea of this brutal nature is global in scope. I don't see this in politics or political entities. It's just not in their charter, yet it will be the umbrella policy of the beast empire. However, this is what ISIS is all about. Destruction, murder, subjugation, forced conversion, and world domination. This fits right in with your analysis of the evidence of the opening of the first seal, "The certainty of the first seal being opened, as I see it, lies in recognizing the existence of the feet of iron and clay and the covert conquering taking place through that global structure."

ISIS mixes but does not adhere with every country it infiltrates, like a dormant, virulent virus. This is the feet of iron and clay. The hard ideology mingling but not adhering with the general population. ISIS has a global structure but it's clearly not covert. It's conquering through terror and appears to be unstoppable. ISIS doesn't have a border, doesn't recognize any border. Pushing them out of Syria and Iraq will just move them to another part of the world. Taking out the leader, Baghdadi, may stop the beast. But executing this primary candidate for the beast just allows for bringing him back to life and being empowered by the dragon through the evil spirit from the abyss.  

[precepts]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

<high five> Is that inappropriate?

High five.

[Diaste]

On 8/20/2016 at 8:27 AM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

I would link the first to the second.  I do think that the Industrial Revolution has brought war on a scale which was never before possible.  And Capitalism, while it has conquered the world without firing a shot, bringing down both the iron and the bamboo curtain, has not made the world a more peaceful place.

The scope continues to grow.  The things we are seeing now, build up successively, and perhaps even logarithmically, and they will crescendo in the one 'seven' in my opinion.  While not included in my posting, I look at the sudden, and rapid growth of disease coming from animals - the Zika virus, being just one of over 20 such mutations to affect the world - as being just another manifestation of the four spirits at work in this world to bring the world up to a fever pitch.  

It is only in turmoil and chaos that tyrants look attractive with their promise to restore order, and the byword, which is a lie, in the end-times is: peace and safety.

I don't disagree with your analysis. In fact I have the same impressions. What has been on my mind is the idea the 'beginning of sorrows' is the lead in to the 70th week, 'last seven' or the 'one seven' you allude to above. All we have seen and recorded concerning world conditions in the last 250 years is the preamble, the introduction as it were, to the beginning of the end of the age. Which, from some amateur investigation and analysis, is either upon us or soon to be. 

The connection I see from the first two seals, the conqueror taking peace from the earth, is what I have been looking for. Do I see this? Perhaps. There are some logical problems to work out but it's plausible this is occurring right now. For instance, if there is an entity that fits the bill, and the initial seals have been opened, where does the rebuilding of the Temple fit in and when do they cry 'peace and safety'? Who is begging for peace and safety and when? To whom? And safety from what or whom?

Initially my impression is the world is crying for peace and safety from the first seal rider. A similar thing is happening today. With the advent of ISIS there are no safe places anymore. Regular life in dozens of nations is under attack. Celebrations, weddings, clubs, airports, malls, LECs are no longer places of peace to conduct normal life in safety.  Do I think this means the two seals are open? No. As an idle muse I posit the 70th week begins with the deadly head wound that's healed. Is this correct? Perhaps. Does it make sense? I think so.

Quickly, it could play out thus: The eventual beast is causing the problems where the world begs for peace and safety. The major world powers gather together and track this man down, arrest him and the major powers trumpet their great success to the world. Very publicly he's tried, convicted, and sentenced to death by execution. Manner of execution? Depends on who arrests him and where he's convicted. Since I have made a case for ISIS as the beast empire and it's leader as the beast I tend toward an arrest and trial by a nation sorely afflicted by these radicals. Two nations that favor beheading in the Middle East are Saudi Arabia and Iran. It's not a stretch Iran could get the beast as they are very involved in the war against ISIS. The beast is beheaded, healed and brought back to life by the dragon. Now he's the rider on the white horse. A crowned king hero that has the awe and worship of the world. Now the Temple can be rebuilt after this immortal godlike king guarantees the peace. This is the false peace that's taken by the second seal, I would assume at the occurrence of the A of D. The third seal has more to do with forced conversion after the A of D, and buying and selling contingent upon displaying the mark of the beast. Fourth seal is the global death of believers in Jesus and those others who refuse the mark for other reasons, and those who stand against the beast as is apparently recorded in Dan 11.

Bit of a radical take I admit. It flies in the face of all the authors I have read and the top endtime scholars. There is, of course, volumes more evidence that can be presented.

[precepts]

They are not personifications. They are the fallen angels, five in all, the Beast from the bottomless pit and the 4 re;eased Euphrates angels.

They are also the kings that represent the beast kingdoms in Dan 7:17, five and not four just like the horsemen. The same way the 4th horseman is followed by Hell the 5th horseman is the same way the 4th beast kingdom's 11th horn in Dan 7 is the 5th beast kingdom of feet of iron and clay, Revelation's second beast kingdom, the False Prophet.

They are the eyes of God sent forth through out the earth, angels/spirits:

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Zec 6:1 And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass.
Zec 6:2 In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;
Zec 6:3 And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.
Zec 6:4 Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord?
Zec 6:5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

Note they are the same color horses as the horses of the horsemen in Revelation, the bay being the pale horse again followed by Hell's horse the spotted/speckled horse. The red horse is the brown horse of course.

 

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Zec 4:1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep,
Zec 4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
Zec 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
+++++++++++
Zec 4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
Zec 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
Zec 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

The key phrases here are the "eyes of the Lord," "which run to and fro through the earth," and "stand before the Lord of the whole earth."

 

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Zec 1:7 Upon the four and twentieth day of the eleventh month, which is the month Sebat, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the LORD unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet, saying,
Zec 1:8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white.
Zec 1:9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be.
Zec 1:10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.
Zec 1:11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.

Again these are the same horses with the same colors, the eyes/spirits of God.

 

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Zec 1:18 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns.
Zec 1:19 And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem.
Zec 1:20 And the LORD shewed me four carpenters.
Zec 1:21 Then said I, What come these to do? And he spake, saying, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, so that no man did lift up his head: but these are come to fray them, to cast out the horns of the Gentiles, which lifted up their horn over the land of Judah to scatter it.

Who do you suppose the 4 horns of the Gentiles are, the 4 carpenters that come to right their wrongs and to replace them, and the two olive branches in Zec 4:14 are?

 

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Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

I rest my case.

 

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Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
Dan 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

The 4-5 beast kingdoms in Dan 8 are the 4 horns from Zec 1:18,that scattered Israel and had to be replaced, the fallen amgels, the 4 to 5 beast kingdoms.

Edited August 21, 2016 by precepts

[Ezra]

5 hours ago, precepts said:

I rest my case.

Which is still quite shaky.  Going into the details as to why would be tiresome and also counterproductive. Do you really believe the earth will sit still while those destructive events take place?

[Guest Robert]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

<high five> Is that inappropriate?

 

Yes, it is; people are going to be suffering and dying in the Tribulation, and you and precepts are acting like this is about scoring points??!!

 

THIS ISN'T A GAME!!!!!

 

 

Excuse me while I go throw up....

 

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2016 by RobertS

[Diaste]

33 minutes ago, RobertS said:

 

Yes, it is; people are going to be suffering and dying in the Tribulation, and you and precepts are acting like this is about scoring points??!!

 

THIS ISN'T A GAME!!!!!

 

 

Excuse me while I go throw up....

 

 

 

 

Ok. In the first place no one asked you. Second you are out of context and out of line. The comment was in response to an admonition I found totally appropriate and nothing to do with any discussion about the time of the end.  I find it hypocritical to be angry about something you are not going to be a part of. You care about the tribulation and the people that have to endure it? You won't be here according to you, only us sad unbelievers who are worthy of death. Who's playing the game?

[Diaste]

Here's an odd thought:

What if the four horses simply represent conditions as result of actions? Is it possible the rider of the all four horses is the same and conquering, war, economic control(I don't see the third horse as economic collapse. All conquerors love tax revenue, yes?), and death are just attributes and/or actions of the one person, the beast, bringing about the aforementioned conditions?

 

[precepts]

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

Which is still quite shaky.  Going into the details as to why would be tiresome and also counterproductive.

Yeah, I know the feeling. When you can't debunk the facts, you say stuff like that.

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Do you really believe the earth will sit still while those destructive events take place?

Who says it will, me or the script?

Oh, the games we play.