Defense for the Mass-Transit System Rapture

[WilliamL]

On 9/10/2016 at 7:12 AM, Retrobyter said:

Now, if we can all agree to that, THEN we have a basis for further discussion regarding "tribulation" and "wrath." Do we have an accord so far?

So far...

[Retrobyter]

12 hours ago, WilliamL said:

So far...

Shalom, WilliamL.

So far is so good. Thank you for responding. I will continue with you. If anyone else would care to add, please answer the question above, first. Thanks.

Okay, William, I appreciate your answer on Friday (11:00 AM) when you said, "As long as pre-tribbers go on repeating their old mantra that 'the Wrath is the Tribulation,' without a scintilla of scriptural evidence to support this belief, they will remain blind to the sequence of events in the End Times."

This reflects the problem that I see with assigning labels to particular words in Scripture. When one takes a particular word, like "tribulation," to be a LABEL for a certain "future, seven-year time period," then he or she will see that "future, seven-year time period" every time that particular word is found in Scripture.

IF, however, a person will take the particular word and treat it as a CONDITION, then that individual would have to take EACH REFERENCE that uses that word and check the context of that reference to see how that word is used.

This is true not only for the English words but also for the Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic words found in the text using those original languages. The English words used for translation are NOT guaranteed as "inspired of God." However, the original manuscripts WERE so guaranteed, and although the modern versions of those texts in those original languages may have slight changes over time, the integrity and fidelity to the original manuscripts ensure more consistent usage of the words.

Even the words of the original languages should NOT be taken as labels! One cannot say that every occurrence of the word "thlipsis" is talking about the "Tribulation" as though it was a "future, seven-year time period!"

Instead, the word "thlipsis" should be thought of as a CONDITION! It is a word that refers to the "pressure" and "distress" that people, particularly the children of Israel, will feel as God is trying to teach them a lesson - THE lesson - that they should have learned long ago!

Matthew 24:4-29
4 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ (the Messiah),' and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. 

9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved (rescued). 14 And this gospel of the kingdom (this good news about the Kingdom) will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 

15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel — let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now — and never to be equaled again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect (the chosen ones who believe in a messiah) those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ! (here's the Messiah!)' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false Christs (messiahs) and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect (the chosen ones who look for a messiah) — if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 

26 "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 

29 "Immediately after the distress of those days

"'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' "
NIV

Pardon the use of the NIV, but the point is to allow the text to flow smoothly for the reader. This is NOT a long passage! Furthermore, these are not "Church fathers" to whom He was talking! They are His disciples, JEWS to whom was offered the Kingdom over which David and Shlomoh (Solomon) once ruled!

It's at this time that Yeshua` continued,

Matthew 24:30-31
30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
NIV

One should also notice here that the phrase, "all the nations of the earth will mourn" is Yeshua` quoting from Zechariah 12:12! Therefore, this is a BAD translation of that verse because it should have been rendered "all the families of the Land will mourn."

The Hebrew is...

V-caafdaah haa'aarets mishpaachowt mishpaachowt l-Vaad.

V-caafdaah = And-will-mourn
haa'aarets = the-Land
mishpaachowt = families (plural of "mishpaachaah")
mishpaachowt = families (reduplicated to mean "EVERY family")
l-Vaad. = to-separation.

If Yeshua` had meant "every nation," the Hebrew word would have been "goyim!"

The Greek is...

kai tote kopsontai pasai hai fulai tees gees.

kai = and
tote = then
kopsontai = shall-mourn
pasai = all
hai = the
fulai = families
tees = of-the
gees. = land.

NT:5443 phulee (foo-lay'); from NT:5453 (compare NT:5444); an offshoot, i.e. race or clan:
KJV - kindred, tribe.

NT:1093 gee (ghay); contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application):
KJV - country, earth (-ly), ground, land, world.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

This comment about His messengers who will "gather His elect (His chosen ones who look for a messiah) from the four winds (the four compass directions), from one end of the sky (top) to the other (bottom)" is what happens in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17! This IS the "Rapture!" It's just not separate from the Second Coming!

Edited September 14, 2016 by Retrobyter
wrong Thessalonians correction

[WilliamL]

On 9/13/2016 at 9:09 PM, Retrobyter said:

This reflects the problem that I see with assigning labels to particular words in Scripture. When one takes a particular word, like "tribulation," to be a LABEL for a certain "future, seven-year time period," then he or she will see that "future, seven-year time period" every time that particular word is found in Scripture.

Agreed.

On 9/13/2016 at 9:09 PM, Retrobyter said:

One should also notice here that the phrase, "all the nations of the earth will mourn" is Yeshua` quoting from Zechariah 12:12! Therefore, this is a BAD translation of that verse because it should have been rendered "all the families of the Land will mourn."

Perhaps, perhaps not. The same phrase is used in Rev. 1:7; and implied in slightly different words in Rev. 6:15-17, which refers to "the kings of the earth/ges." That passage at the very least refers to peoples of the whole earth, not just Jews in the Holy Land. Therefore, there is no solid reason to conclude that Jesus was not also referring, in Matt. 24, to all the tribes of the whole earth mourning at the time of his Parousia.

Another passage which prophesies of this event is Isaiah 2:10-21, which again clearly refers to all the peoples of the whole earth. So whether Jesus was specifically referring to the tribes of Israel or not in Matthew 24:30, the event itself will effect and be seen by the whole world.

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Perhaps, perhaps not. The same phrase is used in Rev. 1:7; and implied in slightly different words in Rev. 6:15-17, which refers to "the kings of the earth/ges." That passage at the very least refers to peoples of the whole earth, not just Jews in the Holy Land. Therefore, there is no solid reason to conclude that Jesus was not also referring, in Matt. 24, to all the tribes of the whole earth mourning at the time of his Parousia.

Another passage which prophesies of this event is Isaiah 2:10-21, which again clearly refers to all the peoples of the whole earth. So whether Jesus was specifically referring to the tribes of Israel or not in Matthew 24:30, the event itself will effect and be seen by the whole world.

Shabbat shalom, WilliamL.

Revelation 1:7 has exactly the same Greek wording as does Matthew 24:30 and is therefore another quote, also by the Messiah, from Zechariah 12:12.

Revelation 6:15-17, however, is not referring to the same kind of "mourning." See, Zechariah 12:12 is talking about mourning FOR the Messiah who had been pierced, and it refers to His ancestors mourning for Him. The same four names in the list can be found in the genealogy of Yeshua` in Luke 3.

Revelation 6:15-17 is talking about men from all walks of life COWERING in caves like the chicken-livered cowards that they are, because of the Messiah's WRATH!

The two passages in Revelation are not the same event.

On the other hand, that tells us that BOTH events shall occur.

However, the words of Yeshua` in Matthew 24:30 are assuredly NOT talking about the second event of the men cowering in caves.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Retrobyter
To finish the thought

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 8/21/2016 at 11:01 PM, RobertS said:

Now, a question for folks who think we will be here for the Tribulation....

 

Is the Blood of Christ enough, or do you think that salvation is somehow lacking without our "adding to it"?

If that is the case: then why are the saints who have gone before us not resurrected to suffer in the Tribulation as well, seeing as there was no time like it before, nor would there be again? Do we think the suffering in their lives was worse than what those in the tribulation would endure?

Was just noticing this thread Robert, and read your post, noticing in particular the part that I quoted above. I did not read the rest of the thread to see if anyone responded to your question. It looked like no one had so I will make a quick response (even though it sort of goes against my better judgement, since I am not responding to the OP, but to your question.

As one who believes the the Church will participate in the Tribulation (though I think by the time it arrives, I will be the the resurrection that precedes the rapture), let me say this as it might represent the thinking of many who are like minded with me:

You comment: "Is the Blood of Christ enough, or do you think that salvation is somehow lacking without our "adding to it"?" . . .  This question has no relationship to, and in fact, misrepresents post-trib belief. For myself (an likely for many others) I believe absolutely, that nothing needs to be added to a lacking salvation. When Jesus said "it is finished", it was. He was the one perfect and wholly adequate sacrifice for sinners. Why you would think we think otherwise, is beyond me.

I would guess that there are perhaps thousands of explanations of the post-trib rapture on this forums, and I would bet that not once, has any post-tribber here said that the cross was not enough. I also imagine that that idea could not be found in any book written by a post-tribber, nor has it been said, by any post-tribber of the previous 20 centuries that I am aware of. If am wrong on this point, please point that out. Without such evidence, I would say that you have more or less a Red Herring here, albeit not one created intentionally. It is just a mis-statement, I believe, to suggest the post-tribbers think Jesus sacrifice was not enough. We contribute nothing to salvation, it is entirely the work of God that saves. 

Re you comment: "If that is the case: then why are the saints who have gone before us not resurrected to suffer in the Tribulation as well, seeing as there was no time like it before, nor would there be again? Do we think the suffering in their lives was worse than what those in the tribulation would endure?"

Well, this I am afraid, is irrelevant, because right off the back, as I have pointed out, posties do not believe that going through the tribulation contributes to our salvation. There is also a logical fallacy here, because even if we did believe that, it does not necessarily follow, that all believers would have to suffer equally to enter God's rest. 

The scriptures do not state anything like the idea that all must suffer equally to enter into the kingdom of God.  Since the Bible does not state such a thing, I doubt most posties would be interested in holding to such an idea. The closest I can  think that would indicate that would be:

Acts 14:  21 After they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, “Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.”

and

John 16:33"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

and perhaps 

2 Tim 3:10 Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium and at Lystra; what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord rescued me! 12 Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

Now, in non of these cases above, is the Great Tribulation, or Daniel's 70th week in view. So no, we do not think that it is necessary to go through that dreaded period of time, we do believe though, that the Christians who are around and within the reach of the anti-christ, well be sought out and persecuted, some even being put to death for their faith, as the book of Revelation states.

I think most of us just see that, as the faithful of God, suffering for His name's sake, just as the prophets did, the apostles did, and Christian martyrs through the centuries have and continue to do to this day. We see no reason why, one generation of believers are exempted from this normal state that believers not only have endured, but will persevere through by the grace of God, if that turns out to be His will for us.

Jesus said do not fear those who can kill the body, and in Matt 5 said: ""Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

James 1 says: 2"Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4 And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Because of this honor, the rewards the being able to count it as blessing, something to be joyful about, I would not even want to skip the opportunity. I have faith that God can protect me if He wants, and will work it all out for good (Rom 8:28) whichever way it goes. I believe that when the time comes, He is able to make me stand and not faint, to serve the One who loves me and dies for me, and not cower  before His (and my) Enemies. Danielle, Shadrack, Meshack, Abednego, others in the old testament, Stephen, the Apostles, other saints over the ages, have been enables to stare death in the face. if I fail at that, no biggie, life is temporary, eternal life is eternal bliss.

If God is for us, who can be against us?

Maybe not all posties have a "bring it on" attitude, but if I were to find myself in the tribulation, my attitude at present, while not under duress is "I am willing". I think our attitude was modeled for us:

"Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

You ended with "Something to think about . . . "

I hope I have given you and others, something to think about also.

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Was just noticing this thread Robert, and read your post, noticing in particular the part that I quoted above. I did not read the rest of the thread to see if anyone responded to your question. It looked like no one had so I will make a quick response (even though it sort of goes against my better judgement, since I am not responding to the OP, but to your question.

As one who believes the the Church will participate in the Tribulation (though I think by the time it arrives, I will be the the resurrection that precedes the rapture), let me say this as it might represent the thinking of many who are like minded with me:

You comment: "Is the Blood of Christ enough, or do you think that salvation is somehow lacking without our "adding to it"?" . . .  This question has no relationship to, and in fact, misrepresents post-trib belief. For myself (an likely for many others) I believe absolutely, that nothing needs to be added to a lacking salvation. When Jesus said "it is finished", it was. He was the one perfect and wholly adequate sacrifice for sinners. Why you would think we think otherwise, is beyond me.

I would guess that there are perhaps thousands of explanations of the post-trib rapture on this forums, and I would bet that not once, has any post-tribber here said that the cross was not enough. I also imagine that that idea could not be found in any book written by a post-tribber, nor has it been said, by any post-tribber of the previous 20 centuries that I am aware of. If am wrong on this point, please point that out. Without such evidence, I would say that you have more or less a Red Herring here, albeit not one created intentionally. It is just a mis-statement, I believe, to suggest the post-tribbers think Jesus sacrifice was not enough. We contribute nothing to salvation, it is entirely the work of God that saves. 

Re you comment: "If that is the case: then why are the saints who have gone before us not resurrected to suffer in the Tribulation as well, seeing as there was no time like it before, nor would there be again? Do we think the suffering in their lives was worse than what those in the tribulation would endure?"

Well, this I am afraid, is irrelevant, because right off the back, as I have pointed out, posties do not believe that going through the tribulation contributes to our salvation. There is also a logical fallacy here, because even if we did believe that, it does not necessarily follow, that all believers would have to suffer equally to enter God's rest. 

The scriptures do not state anything like the idea that all must suffer equally to enter into the kingdom of God.  Since the Bible does not state such a thing, I doubt most posties would be interested in holding to such an idea. The closest I can  think that would indicate that would be:

Acts 14:  21 After they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, “Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.”

and

John 16:33"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

and perhaps 

2 Tim 3:10 Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium and at Lystra; what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord rescued me! 12 Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

Now, in non of these cases above, is the Great Tribulation, or Daniel's 70th week in view. So no, we do not think that it is necessary to go through that dreaded period of time, we do believe though, that the Christians who are around and within the reach of the anti-christ, well be sought out and persecuted, some even being put to death for their faith, as the book of Revelation states.

I think most of us just see that, as the faithful of God, suffering for His name's sake, just as the prophets did, the apostles did, and Christian martyrs through the centuries have and continue to do to this day. We see no reason why, one generation of believers are exempted from this normal state that believers not only have endured, but will persevere through by the grace of God, if that turns out to be His will for us.

Jesus said do not fear those who can kill the body, and in Matt 5 said: ""Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

James 1 says: 2"Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4 And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Because of this honor, the rewards the being able to count it as blessing, something to be joyful about, I would not even want to skip the opportunity. I have faith that God can protect me if He wants, and will work it all out for good (Rom 8:28) whichever way it goes. I believe that when the time comes, He is able to make me stand and not faint, to serve the One who loves me and dies for me, and not cower  before His (and my) Enemies. Danielle, Shadrack, Meshack, Abednego, others in the old testament, Stephen, the Apostles, other saints over the ages, have been enables to stare death in the face. if I fail at that, no biggie, life is temporary, eternal life is eternal bliss.

If God is for us, who can be against us?

Maybe not all posties have a "bring it on" attitude, but if I were to find myself in the tribulation, my attitude at present, while not under duress is "I am willing". I think our attitude was modeled for us:

"Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

You ended with "Something to think about . . . "

I hope I have given you and others, something to think about also.

 

You

Shabbat shalom, Omegaman 3.0.

Inadvertently, you have answered my question above. Thank you for your response.

When Yeshua` returns, it will be a "turning of the tides!" The nations surrounding Israel, whose intent is to "drive them into the sea," shall think they already have the victory and they will finally be free of the children of Israel, fulfilling their god's desire.

Yeshua` WON'T let that happen! The passion He shows in the Rescue of His human family will be really something to behold! It will be even more fun to PARTICIPATE in His Rescue mission! We won't do much of the battling as that will be handled by the Messiah, but it will be our part to rescue His family from the clutches of the enemies in the various cities of Y'hudah and Israel, raising the dead, and to help Him herd the enemies back across the mountains of Israel to the valley below (north and east of) Har Megiddown or "Tel Megiddo." They will think they can regroup and make a stand there in the `Eemeq Yizr`e'l (Jezreel Valley), only to be thoroughly defeated until the blood flows "even unto the horse bridles" for about 200 miles! I believe that covers all of the plains of Israel between the mountains and the sea, for water (and blood consisting primarily of water) seeks its own level!

Isaiah 9:1-7
1 Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.
2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.
3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.
4 For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian.
5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
KJV

Isaiah 59:1-21
1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
4 None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.
5 They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.
6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.
7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.
8 The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.
9 Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness.
10 We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men.
11 We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but there is none; for salvation (rescue), but it is far off from us.
12 For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them;
13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.
14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation (freedom) unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation (rescue) upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.
19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.
KJV

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 8/21/2016 at 11:01 PM, RobertS said:

1) What you have quoted does not support Jesus transporting the saints in the Rapture to the Holy land.

2) Where do you think Jesus is going to be during the Tribulation? Scripture clearly shows Him IN HEAVEN during the Tribulation:

" After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne. And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance. Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads." (Revelation 4:1-4, NASB, emphasis mine)

Just looking over your post again Robert. I agree with the premise that Jesus is shown to be in Heaven. You then quote a verse which shows this. However, you also state that Scripture clearly shows Him in Heaven during the tribulation. I would agree that Revelation does show Jesus in Heaven during the tribulation.

Now, if you really want to expound on Rev 4, especially if there is any question of timing or sequence (not just geography), then one should not that Rev 4 uses the phrase, "after these things". A good question to ask, is "After which things?", but the is getting off track.

So, back to the notion that Jesus is in Heaven during the trib (I don't recall that Retro said otherwise, by the way), scripture does indeed feature Heaven during the tribulation. In fact, it very clearly shows a perspective from Heaven during the Tribulation where in chapter 20:4 it says:

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; 

So there, we see that those who stood for Jesus and rebelled against anti-christ (this makes them seem to be Christians in my mind) we martyred during the trib. Obviously, here we are seeing what is going on during the trib, and prior to Jesus return to earth which He spoke about in Matt 24 and other places. 

I would agree with you that Jesus is in Heaven, but I would agree with Retro's notion that when Jesus returns, it will be as the Bible says:

 Matt 24:29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, ANDTHE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

I am guessing here, that Retro's point is, that at Jesus coming, and the gathering, is not for a trip to Heaven, but a trip through the atmosphere, note the reference to wind, and clouds, and sky, not the Heaven of God's throne.

It seems to me, that you are not really addressing his point, but inserting the theory of a pre-tribulation rapture, which you have not remotely demonstrated from scripture in your post, or am I missing something?

You of course, are not unique in this thread, to assert that retro's position is not scriptural. So as a point to others in this thread, I am not endorsing his position, but I think it would be great for those wanting to refute his position, show why his position is not scriptural. This is best done with scripture that either refutes what he says, or proves a different scenario which is incompatible with his. While I think that if he believes that there is no Heaven, that has been addressed, but I do not see where anyone has refuted his notion of travel through the air to the middle east (I think around Jerusalem is better indicated), not has anyone refuted that his notion that the beleiver's ultimate destiny is not the Heaven that now exists, but a new Heaven and a New Earth.

I apologize for not having read this whole thread, but I am just expressing the idea, that people should, perhaps, demonstrate the flaws in what Retro says, rather than just declaring them un-scriptural when you disagree with Retro's position. Calling things unscriptural or wild imagination etc. does nothing to reveal what is true.

[WilliamL]

On 9/16/2016 at 6:07 PM, Retrobyter said:

Revelation 1:7 has exactly the same Greek wording as does Matthew 24:30 and is therefore another quote, also by the Messiah, from Zechariah 12:12.

No, Rev. 1:7 adds other things to what is said in Matt. 24:30.

On 9/16/2016 at 6:07 PM, Retrobyter said:

The two passages in Revelation are not the same event.

Oh but they are the same event. Rev. 1:7 says,

Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye shall see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Note that every eye will see him, including but not limited to those who pierced him. Every eye, including those of the elect, and those of the heathen unbelievers. This is why those who flee and hide in the earth, as foretold in Rev. 6 and Isaiah 2, are afraid: because they SEE him; therefore they say,

Rev. 6:16 ...hide us from the Face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

Is. 2:19 They shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, from the terror of the LORD and the glory of his majesty, when he arises to shake the earth mightily.

The heathen unbelievers see the Face, they fear, they hide. The saints see the Face, they rejoice, they "be[come] like him" (1 John 3:2), they ascend to be with him. The Jews who have been blinded to Jesus, but believe in the God of Israel and the coming of their Messiah, see the Face, they mourn and repent, and some of them are then "sealed in their foreheads" (Rev. 7:3ff.).

All of these things happen at the same time, when "every eye shall see Him."

Thus my continuing postscript:

The Lord comes in clouds, every eye sees him, the elect ascend, the Jews are converted, the heathen wail, the Wrath begins.

[Retrobyter]

34 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

No, Rev. 1:7 adds other things to what is said in Matt. 24:30.

Oh but they are the same event. Rev. 1:7 says,

Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye shall see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Note that every eye will see him, including but not limited to those who pierced him. Every eye, including those of the elect, and those of the heathen unbelievers. This is why those who flee and hide in the earth, as foretold in Rev. 6 and Isaiah 2, are afraid: because they SEE him; therefore they say,

Rev. 6:16 ...hide us from the Face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

Is. 2:19 They shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, from the terror of the LORD and the glory of his majesty, when he arises to shake the earth mightily.

The heathen unbelievers see the Face, they fear, they hide. The saints see the Face, they rejoice, they "be[come] like him" (1 John 3:2), they ascend to be with him. The Jews who have been blinded to Jesus, but believe in the God of Israel and the coming of their Messiah, see the Face, they mourn and repent, and some of them are then "sealed in their foreheads" (Rev. 7:3ff.).

All of these things happen at the same time, when "every eye shall see Him."

Thus my continuing postscript:

The Lord comes in clouds, every eye sees him, the elect ascend, the Jews are converted, the heathen wail, the Wrath begins.

Shalom, WilliamL

No, they are NOT the same event! Look, I can understand your confusion, but you absolutely MUST limit your thinking to the way that they thought in the first century A.D! It was NOT known that the earth was a globe. It was NOT known that there were people all over the globe in different time zones. Everyone within "line of sight" was the "every eye" that would see Him, not "all the kings of the earth," which within the context of Revelation 6 is like saying "all the kings within the Roman Empire!"

Here's what I was referring to regarding the "same Greek wording":

Apokalupsis Iooannou 1:7
7 Idou erchetai meta toon nefeloon, kai opsetai auton pas ofthalmos kai hoitines auton exekenteesan, kai kopsontai ep’ auton pasai hai fulai tees gees. Nai, ameen.
UBS Greek New Testament

Kata Maththaion 24:30
30 Kai tote faneesetai to seemeion tou Huiou tou Anthroopou en ouranoo, kai tote kopsontai pasai hai filai tees gees kai opsontai ton Huion tou Anthroopou erchomenon epi toon nefeloon tou ouranou meta dunameoos kai doxees pollees;
UBS Greek New Testament

7 Idou = 7 Behold/Look
erchetai = He-comes
meta = with
toon = the
nefeloon, = clouds,
kai = and
opsetai = they-shall-see
auton = Him
pas = all/every
ofthalmos = eye
kai = and
hoitines = they-also-which
auton = Him
exekenteesan, = they-pierced,
kai = and
kopsontai = they-shall-wail
ep’ (epi) = upon/over
auton = Him
pasai = all
hai = the
fulai = families
tees = of-the
gees. = Land.
Nai, = Yes,
ameen. = truth.

30 Kai = 30 And
tote = then
faneesetai = it-shall-appear
to = the
seemeion = sign
tou = of-the
Huiou = Son
tou = of-the
Anthroopou = Man
en = in
ouranoo, = [the]-sky,
kai = and
tote = then
kopsontai = they-shall-wail
pasai = all
hai = the
fulai = families
tees = of-the
gees = Land
kai = and
opsontai = they-shall-see
ton = the
Huion = Son
tou = of-the
Anthroopou = Man
erchomenon = coming
epi = upon/over
toon = the
nefeloon = clouds 
tou = of-the
ouranou = sky
meta = with
dunameoos = power
kai = and
doxees = glory/shining
pollees; = great/bright;

Now look at the wording of Revelation 6:15-17:

Apokalupsis Iooannou 6:15-17
15 Kai hoi basileis tees gees kai hoi megistanes kai hoi chilarchoi kai hoi plousioi kai hoi ischuroi kai pas doulos kai eleutheros ekrupsan heautous eis ta speelaia kai eis tas petras toon oreoon
16 kai legousin tois oresin kai tais petrais, “Pesete ef’ heemas kai krupsate heemas aso prosoopou tou katheemenou epi tou thronou kai apo tees orgees tou arniou,
17 hoti eelthen hee heemera hee megalee tees orgels auto, kai this dunatai statheenai?”
UBS Greek New Testament

15 Kai = 15 And
hoi = the
basileis = kings
tees = of-the
gees = earth/land
kai = and
hoi = the
megistanes = great-men
kai = and
hoi = the
chiliarchoi = captains-of-a-thousand
kai = and
hoi = the
plousioi = rich-men
kai = and
hoi = the
ischuroi = strong-men
kai = and
pas = all/every
doulos = slave
kai = and
eleutheros = free-man
ekrupsan = hid-out
heautous = themselves
eis = into
ta = the
speelaia = caverns
kai = and
eis = into
tas = the
petras = rocks
toon = of-the
oreoon = mountains
16 kai = 16 and
legousin = they-said
tois = to-the
oresin = mountains
kai = and
tais = to-the
petrais, = rocks,
“Pesete = “Fall
ef’ (epi) = upon/above/over 
heemas = us
kai = and
krupsate = hide
heemas = us
apo = away-from
prosoopou = [the]-face
tou = of-the
katheemenou = seated-One
epi = upon/above/over
tou = the
thronou = throne
kai = and
apo = away-from
tees = the
orgees = violent-passion/anger/wrath
tou = of-the
Arniou, = Lamb,
17 hoti = 17 because
eelthen = is-come
hee = the
heemera = Day
hee = of-the
megalee = great/huge
tees = of-the
orgees = violent-passion/anger/wrath
autoon, = of-His,
kai = and
tis = who
dunatai = shall-be-able/can
statheenai?” = to-stand?”

We are talking about FOUR different passages of Scripture:

(1) Matthew 24:30

(2) Revelation 1:7

(3) Revelation 6:15-17

(4) Zechariah 12:10-14

Both (1) and (2) quote part of (4).

Also, both (1) and (2) are Yeshua`s words!

However, (3) does NOT quote (4).

You are drawing an UNNECESSARY and UNFOUNDED parallel between (2) and (3), a parallel that DOES NOT EXIST BECAUSE they are two separate events! And, they are separate because they are talking about TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT REASONS FOR BEING UPSET:

(1), (2), and (4) are talking about the PIERCING OF THE MESSIAH and the GRIEF that produces in the families of Israel, particularly those within Yeshua`s lineage.

(3) is talking about COWARDICE - QUAILING at the sight of the Wrath of the Lamb! They didn't even "cry out" to the mountains; they just "said," "Fall on us" and "hide us!" There's not a SINGLE mention of "mourning."

Remember: Revelation was written primarily to the seven churches in Asia Minor (which is Turkey today) during the first century A.D. The language of Revelation could not be without code for fear of interception by the Romans and opening up a HUGE can of worms with them! After all, they were talking about the coming of a King, and in particular the King of Kings or a World Emperor and that He would be a World Emperor of a DIFFERENT Empire, not that of Rome! Can you imagine what kind of backlash that would produce?

[WilliamL]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Remember: Revelation was written primarily to the seven churches in Asia Minor (which is Turkey today) during the first century A.D.

If that is what you presume about the book, that is all you will be able to see.

However, the simple facts are, none of those seven churches in Asia Minor now exist, and many of the prophecies in the book were clearly never fulfilled in their day; which would make the book a false prophecy. If we follow your presumptions about it, that is.

For those who are able to see that the book is, however, primarily about End Time events, then "every eye" means exactly that, every eye, including those of the living and the dead -- and not limited at all to solely Jewish eyes, nor the Roman world, as you believe.