Defense for the Mass-Transit System Rapture

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 8/21/2016 at 11:18 PM, Retrobyter said:

I believe in the "rapture" of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, as it is often called; however, I do NOT believe that anyone goes to "Heaven." We will go THROUGH the "heavens," the "skies," on our way to the Middle East. We'll meet the Master in the air, and from that time on we'll always be with the Master. 

I recall an amusing anecdote I saw in a church basement in Charlotte.  It said: "Don't believe everything you think."

This theory is a about as amusing as Roy's rendition of Revelation Rev 21:10-22 as a pyramid, so that it's "walls" are gentle slopes from the vantage point of standing on the earth, going up to a point well above heaven, even into the vacuum of outer space as Roy defines "heaven"...

This theory of Roy's does not work with any Pre-Millennial eschatology.  Nor does it have any real Scriptural basis except for that required to interpret the languages as he does - like saying the word "ark" means box, when actually it is a "loan word" from the Egyptian language: tebah ~ which means "palace" and not "box", or "coffin". 

 

On 8/21/2016 at 11:18 PM, Retrobyter said:

Yeshua` just CAME from heaven! Why would He go back?

Because He just trampled out His Wrath in Israel and it's not a fit place for His Bride!
 

On 8/21/2016 at 11:18 PM, Retrobyter said:

To remove us from God's Wrath? Why would that be necessary? God's been quite capable up to this point in history of keeping His children from experiencing His Wrath (as long as His Wrath wasn't aimed AT them, of course).

Well that's what Paul says, "Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come." (1Th 1:10) ~ and it would be necessary when it affects the whole of the earth as it does with the Bowl or Vial Judgments.

And that takes care of the "aiming" ~ only the Remnant is marshaled through the second half of the one 'seven'.
Rev 3:10 is not the iron-clad protection everyone makes of it when you look at the language John uses.

[WilliamL]

15 hours ago, RustyAngeL said:

You are like my friend.  She takes one passage and makes an entire doctrine out of it.  Can't do that.  As my friend would say.. That dog won't hunt.

It sure is easy to criticize without adding anything intelligent to a conversation.

2 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

I clearly said that the Tribulation is God pouring out His wrath on an unbelieving world.  A believer can never be the recipient of that wrath.

YOU say that the Great Tribulation of Matt. 24 and Rev. 7 is God's wrath, but nowhere does Scripture say that. You are simply adding your presumption to the Word, something which so many do in their eschatologies.

Scripture clearly tells us that tribulation can have other sources, such as

Rev. 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

[RustyAngeL]

13 hours ago, missmuffet said:

If a person denies heaven they also deny God's Holy word.

Yes they do miss.  Just so sad that they cherry pick what they want to believe and what they don't. The truth can be right in front of them and yet they refuse to see it.

[Retrobyter]

17 hours ago, RustyAngeL said:

It was an opinion based on Bible..  it is just so far off target I don't know what to say. I don't see the debate point.  We have spoken the truth so many times and it just keep getting more bazaar.  It's turned into arguing now and that is sad. 

Shalom, RustyAngeL.

Well, your argument is an OPINION based on the Bible, and you BELIEVE that you have spoken "the truth so many times." I'm of a different opinion which is ALSO based on the Bible, comparing apples to apples by investigating the Greek. You'd be right that I, too, BELIEVE that I have spoken the truth so many times (and few seem to be listening as the Bereans, checking these things with an open mind to see if they are true). I also believe that you are aiming at the wrong target!

An "argument" in reasoning and debate is NOT "arguing." It is a STANCE that I take based on what I found in the Scriptures. See definition 2 below:

Quote

argument |ˈärɡyəmənt| noun1 an exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one: I've had an argument with my father | heated arguments over public spending | there was some argument about the decision.2 a reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong: there is a strong argument for submitting a formal appeal | [ with clause ] :  he rejected the argument that keeping the facility would be costly.3 Mathematics an independent variable associated with a function and determining the value of the function. For example, in the expression y = F( x 1, x 2), the arguments of the function F are x 1 and x 2, and the value is y.• another term for amplitude ( sense 4).• Computing a value or address passed to a procedure or function at the time of call.• Linguistics any of the noun phrases in a clause that are related directly to the verb, typically the subject, direct object, and indirect object.• Logic the middle term in a syllogism.4 archaic a summary of the subject matter of a book.PHRASES for the sake of argument as a basis for discussion or reasoning.ORIGIN Middle English (in the sense ‘process of reasoning’): via Old French from Latin argumentum, from arguere ‘make clear, prove, accuse.’

Notice, too, above that the very word comes from the Latin word meaning to "make clear, prove, accuse." You and your comrades need to take a more intelligent approach to what I'm saying. At the very least, you should CHECK OUT what I claim without going back to your theological propaganda. But, I'm not naive; you probably won't.

[FresnoJoe]

One

I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early. Hosea 5:15

Time

Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Mark 24:25-27

[RustyAngeL]

7 hours ago, inchrist said:

But thats the crux of the matter, which one is it?

A template of mass protection from Gods wrath would be Israel in Egypt.

Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs.

 

I do not believe we will be here for the tribulation, however there is room for disagreement on that.  It is all about God's wrath on an unbelieving world.  Our sins have been judged at the Cross.  To be judged again is like double jeopardy. 

I believe too that their will be people saved during the tribulation but they will not be safe from what is going around them, in fact being a believer will most likely cost them their lives.

[Guest Robert]

12 minutes ago, RustyAngeL said:

I do not believe we will be here for the tribulation, however there is room for disagreement on that.  It is all about God's wrath on an unbelieving world.  Our sins have been judged at the Cross.  To be judged again is like double jeopardy. 

I believe too that their will be people saved during the tribulation but they will not be safe from what is going around them, in fact being a believer will most likely cost them their lives.

Same here: the Tribulation is the time of God's wrath. And while it has been mentioned that God has not rescued believers in the past from persecution, what we need to remember is that the tribulation is god's war on the Planet Earth, and that God is not going to punish those who trust in Him along with unrepentant mankind. To do so would to nullify Christ's blood on the cross.

My question to those who feel that we need to be here to suffer in the Tribulation: what do you feel Christ's sacrifice on the cross lacked that you can provide, if wee could not qualify to pay for our own sins in the first place? If we could have done so, we still would not be here for the Tribulation, as the debt would still have been paid in full.

 

[Retrobyter]

On August 26, 2016 at 6:00 PM, WilliamL said:

Which is not what I think.

For someone with such a heart for Israel, you remain yet blind to the revelation of all of the End Time events written in the very history of Israel. For Israel was God's messenger to the nations, not only by their words, but by their very deeds, about both the First and the Second Comings of our Lord.

The Church will be called up unto heavenly Mount Zion, just like Moses and Joshua were called up onto Mount Sinai. Paul reveals this mystery to us in Hebrews 12. Not all will be able to ascend in our time, just as not all were able to go up then.

The remainder of believers, Jew and Gentile, including the 144,000, will be provided for into the wilderness, as we are shown in Rev. 12, Ezek. 20, and elsewhere. Just as were the Israelites provided for in the wilderness during the Exodus.

When their era of cleansing is fulfilled below, Christ will descend, with the armies of heaven clothed in white robes = the elect who ascended, "To Zion Town."

Shalom, WilliamL.

Hebrews 12 is NOT talking about ascending up to heavenly Mount Zion, which IS the New Jerusalem, btw. (That's another reason for the New Jerusalem being shaped as a pyramid: It is the stone CUT from the mountain without hands that grew until it BECAME a mountain that filled the Land! - Dan. 2:34-35, 44-45)

Pros Hebraious 12:22-24
22 Alla proseleeluthate Sioon orei kai polei Theou zoontos, Ierousaleem epouranioo, kai muriasin aggeloon, paneegurei
23 kai ekkleesia proototokoon apogegrommenoon en ouranois kai kritee Theoo pantoon kai pneumasi dikaioon teteleioomenoon
24 kai diatheekees neas Mesitee Ieesou kai haimati rantismou kreitton lalounti para ton Habel.
UBS The Greek New Testament

22 Alla = 22 But
proseleeluthate = ye-approach
Sioon = Zion (Tsiown)
orei = a-mountain
kai = and
polei = a-city
Theou = of-God
zoontos, = living,
Ierousaleem = Jerusalem (Yerushalayim)
epouranioo, = of-or-belonging-to-above-the-sky
kai = and
muriasin = a-myriad
aggeloon, = of-messengers,
paneegurei = a-mass-meeting
23 kai = 23 and
ekkleesia = called-out-[group]
proototokoon = of-firstborn-[sons]
apogegrommenoon = checked-off
en = in
ouranois = [the]-sky
kai = and
kritee = a-Judge
Theoo = for-God
pantoon = of-all
kai = and
pneumasi = breaths/winds/voiced-dispositions
dikaioon = of-[the]-justified
teteleioomenoon = made-complete
24 kai = 24 and
diatheekees = a-covenant
neas = new
Mesitee = Mediator
Ieesou = Jesus (Yeshua`)
kai = and
haimati = blood
rantismou = of-sprinkling
kreitton = better-[things]
lalounti = that-speaks
para = beyond
ton = that
Habel. = of-Abel (Hevel).

We are APPROACHING to this scenario when the New Jerusalem comes HERE! And, the New Jerusalem LANDS on the New Earth! Pay attention to the wording of Revelation 21:2-4:

Revelation 21:2-4
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (out of the sky), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (a loud voice out of the sky) saying, Behold, the tabernacle (Greek: skeenee = "tent") of God is with men, and he will dwell (Greek: skeenoosai = "he will tent") with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV

The New Jerusalem IS the "Tent of God!" It's a BEDOUIN Tent, like that of Avraham!

Hebrews 11:8-10
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles (Greek: en skeenais = "in tents") with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations (Greek: themelious = "foundations/footings"), whose builder and maker is God.
KJV

It's the House of God! And "coincidentally," this word for "foundations" is the SAME WORD used in Revelation 21:14, 19-20!

Revelation 21:14, 19-20
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations (Greek: themelious = "foundations/footings"), and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
...
19 And the foundations (Greek: themelioi = "foundations/footings") of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation (Greek: themelios = "foundation/footing") was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
KJV

So, everything dove-tails nicely. The other thing I've learned about Hebrews 12:10 is that Avraham "looked for a city which hath foundations" when He called God "Adonai" (OT:113). It's the superlative, first-person possessive, of the Hebrew word "eden" (OT:134) meaning a "basis," and "eden" was translated as "foundation/socket." Thus, Avraham called God "my-(greatest)-Foundation-Layer." It's the first occurrence of the word in Genesis 18:3. [This "eden" is not the same as the name of the first garden's location; that name is "`eeden," (OT:5731) beginning with the Hebrew letter `ayin. "Eden" begins with the Hebrew letter alef.]

I should have added that the word for "ye are come" is "proseleeluthate," which is a second perfect indicative active verb. Also, this verb comes from the root, "proserchomai," a combination of "pros," meaning "to" or "toward," and "erchomai," meaning "I come" or "I go":

NT:4334 proserchomai (pros-er'-khom-ahee); from NT:4314 and NT:2064 (including its alternate); to approach, i.e. (literally) come near, visit, or (figuratively) worship, assent to:
KJV - (as soon as he) come (unto), come thereunto, consent, draw near, go (near, to, unto).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, in this particular instance, the word means "ye are approaching and are still approaching," for it is both punctilinear and durative in its meaning.

Thus, an appropriate translation of Hebrews 12:22a would be...

22 alla proseleeluthate Zioon orei kai polei theou zoontos, Ierousaleem epouranioo,...

22 but ye-are-approaching Tsiown, a mountain and a city of [the] living God, Yerushalayim of-above-the-sky, and are still approaching,...

One has NOT already arrived! (which should be quite obvious!)

When one interprets the verse to mean we've already arrived is where one runs into problems, both theological and eschatological.

Our translation process MAY not be so scholarly consistent as we might like to believe. God is perfect in the sense of being completely accurate; we humans? Not so much! We tend to take the easy way - the short cut, and translators are not immune.

Now, I know that translators are generally more careful than most, and I know that they are sincerely trying to do the best work that they can do, but I'm also not so naive as to believe they are perfect or infallible. I'm also sure that, as human beings, they have moments of inconsistency - indecisiveness, unsurety, weakness, exasperation, exhaustion, frustration, even sickness or anxiety over a loved one. Any person - EVERY person - can have a bad day! And, DOES!

So, for all the consistency and the continuity and the attention to detail, our translation could have faults. Not only COULD they have faults, but BECAUSE translators are human, they WILL have faults; no matter how many times the translations are checked, no matter how many eyes have looked at the work, imperfections WILL slip into the work! And, this is COMPOUNDED if one allows his personal viewpoints to affect how he translates the text! Translators, like interpreters, need to HEED the words of the author and/or Author and translate the work MECHANICALLY, introducing as little of their own thoughts as is humanly possible and stay honest to the text, even if it goes against the grain of one's thinking.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Retrobyter
adding Greek grammar points

[WilliamL]

16 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

...every single post-trib person I have seen positing their theory and why it is the "right" one also believe that the Church has to stay on the Earth through the Tribulation so it's members can be "tested." That belief is aberrant and it isn't biblical.  When the Bible says that were are not appointed to suffer God's wrath it means that . . . we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.  Post-trib believers say we will suffer God's wrath to test us.

The final sentence is a false witness, based upon the presumption that the Tribulation = the Wrath. Whereas pre-wrath post-tribbers, at the very least, say that the two are entirely different things. Neither you or anyone else have ever provided Scripture that directly equates the two, the Great Tribulation and the Wrath, you just go on and on claiming that they are the same.

17 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Noah, Lot and God's divine protection during the plagues in Egypt are all examples which prove that God does not "test" those that believe in Him.

Ex. 15:25 So he cried out to the LORD, and the LORD showed him a tree. When he cast it into the waters, the waters were made sweet. There He made a statute and an ordinance for them, and there He tested them,

Ex. 16:4 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not.

Ex. 20:20 And Moses said to the people, “Do not fear; for God has come to test you, and that His fear may be before you, so that you may not sin.”

[WilliamL]

13 hours ago, RobertS said:

Same here: the Tribulation is the time of God's wrath.

Again, no scripture makes this statement: it is a PRESUMPTION of pre-tribbers and others.

13 hours ago, RobertS said:

what we need to remember is that the tribulation is god's war on the Planet Earth

Likewise. Please remember to cite the Word, not merely the presumptions of men.

 

The Word says that the Great Tribulation will come to an end before the Lord comes in the clouds to gather together his elect. Matt. 24:29-31

The Word says that Coming of the Lord will be immediately preceded by great heavenly and earthly cataclysms. Same verses.

The Word says that "the great day of His Wrath" will immediately follow great heavenly and earthly cataclysms. Rev. 6:12-17

Therefore, evidence from the Word is that the Great Tribulation will come to an end before the Wrath begins: ergo, they are entirely different events.