Forgive

[tsth]

I'm speaking of an outward act and an inward feeling, state of the heart.

The state should always be one of the willingness of the heart to forgive, and to have already done so in heart.........but, take the instance of an abused woman.......should she have forgiveness? Yes. Should she return to an abusive situation? No. There are certain components of forgiveness that I think that we misconstrue, in terms of the "actions" that accompany forgiveness. We always assume that forgiveness means automatic fellowship........it does not. Again, I go back to the story of Joseph and his brothers. There was a process involved in restoration, but Joseph always understood what was taking place and was ready to receive his brothers, but there was a process that had to be undergone first for the reception to take place. His heart was right before the Lord in all of the process.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Keith]

I agree, tsth, that forgiveness doesn't have to mean continuing fellowship, or a relationship, with someone.

A personal example, without too many details, is when someone who is not a Christian hurt me big time. I was able to forgive this person, but I cut off all ties with them completely. Continued contact with this person would have been unfruitful, not to mention incredibly stupid!! Actually, God had me cut ties with that person.

I believe that God would like us to restore fellowship with believers whenever possible, but there are times when it's just not in anyone's best interest.

The "heart condition" of forgiveness is where it really counts. If fellowship can be restored, that's wonderful. If not, that's ok, too. Just make sure that if fellowship with that person cannot be continued, that you have honestly forgiven that person in your heart/thoughts/actions and not just in lip service.

[tsth]

Amen Keith!

That's exactly what I was speaking of............thank you.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[apothanein kerdos]

If they are unwilling to restore the fellowship then that is their problem. However, if they are I think we owe it to them on some level to do soIF repentance has been shown on their part.

[jmwhalen]

Re: forgiveness

Perhaps a prime example of failure to "rightly divide": comparing forgiveness prior to the cross, and prior to the setting aside of Israel(temporarily) in Acts, and prior to the "dispensation of the grace of God"(Eph. 3:2), the "dispensation of God"(Col. 1:25) committed to Paul from the risen, ascended, glorified Lord Jesus Christ from heaven. Compare:

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness(emphasis mine-past tense)of sins

[apothanein kerdos]

I would respond but i have no idea what you are getting at. Are you asserting that if I have unconfessed sin in my life, as a believer, that it will not disrupt my fellowship with God...and that 1 John is written for Tribulation saints and not for us?

[jmwhalen]

I would respond but i have no idea what you are getting at. Are you asserting that if I have unconfessed sin in my life, as a believer, that it will not disrupt my fellowship with God...and that 1 John is written for Tribulation saints and not for us?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

____________

Your question presupposes the mistaken notion that the sin issue was not dealt with adequately at Calvary, and the resurrection 3 days later. Do you know what justification means? Have you not read Paul's "lawyerly" argument in Romans?

You will not find the doctrine of justification in 1 John.

It is irrelevant what I "assert"-what does Romans through Philemon say on the subject, which is the doctrine for the Body of Christ in this dispensation. We are not Israel under the law, nor are we Israel and the unbelieving nations under judgment during the Tribulation(Hebrews through Revelation).

"if I have unconfessed sin in my life"-The Bible says you commit sins YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT. The question is not "if you have unconfessed sin", the question is how many! Sin is not just "wrong doing", it is "wrong being". Each and every one of us commits sin all day long in not only what we do, but in what we DO NOT DO, and in WHAT/HOW we think. Even our thoughts are sinful all day long. Since you do not even know when you sin, you could not possibly confess all the sins in your life-nor can anyone. Additionally, God does not "grade on the curve" regarding the sin issue, distinguishing between "minor sins" and "major sins"(the Roman CC refers to this as "venial sins" vs. "mortal sins")-SIN IS SIN. And even if you could, our fellowship is based soley on the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ, and His resurrection, not your "fessing up"on sins that are too inumerable to count. Again, your self righteousness comes through clearly.

Question: If a person has no arms, no legs, no genitals, no sight(blind), does he still sin, and have "unconfessed sin"? This is the situation in the Islamic world when a person "sins".

In Christ,

John Whalen

[apothanein kerdos]

I think you are confused when it comes to the issue of sin.

Justification is dealing with salvation, not communication. Thus when Paul is addresing the issue of justification of sins he is dealing with our salvation, not our communication with God. Whilst our sin has already been dealt with concerning salvation, a sinful attitude or lifestyle within a Christian does cut off or hamper communication with God. Psalm 66:18 even states, "If I regard wickedness in my heart, the Lord will not hear;". You seem to just throw aside 1 John and say it does not apply, yet this is an inadequate handling of 1 John and even the rest of the scriptures presented that speak of how we must ask for forgiveness. How do you explain them?

what does Romans through Philemon say on the subject, which is the doctrine for the Body of Christ in this dispensation. We are not Israel under the law, nor are we Israel and the unbelieving nations under judgment during the Tribulation(Hebrews through Revelation).

So you are asserting that the Pauline letters are for the current church and that from Hebrews on is merely for the Tribulation church? How is this a biblical concept in any way, shape, or form?

Even if we forgo 1 John we see that Jesus gives us commands to ask for forgiveness from God or we will not be forgiven (in the communication sense). While salvation is eternal communication with God is dependent upon the time we are within. Thus in order to communicate with God we must have a sinful attitude removed from our lives.

Each and every one of us commits sin all day long in not only what we do, but in what we DO NOT DO, and in WHAT/HOW we think. Even our thoughts are sinful all day long. Since you do not even know when you sin, you could not possibly confess all the sins in your life-nor can anyone.

How can we sin if we do not know it is a sin? The definition of a sin is ursurping God's Will in order to uplift our own. It is going against God's Will. How can we fall into this definition if we do not know how we are violating God's Will? Regardless, a prayer of confession which states, "Forgive me of the sins I have committed today, those I know of and those I do not know of" should cover the issue fairly well.

Additionally, God does not "grade on the curve" regarding the sin issue, distinguishing between "minor sins" and "major sins"(the Roman CC refers to this as "venial sins" vs. "mortal sins")-SIN IS SIN. And even if you could, our fellowship is based soley on the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ, and His resurrection, not your "fessing up"on sins that are too inumerable to count.

If this is the case then I can sin as much as I want and still be able to communicate with God.

Again, your self righteousness comes through clearly.

I remember getting into a debate with you a few months ago and all you did was attack me. Please, refrain from personal attacks in here. This is not the Sports thread where you can say what you want. This is an educated debate, so please, keep it that way.

Question: If a person has no arms, no legs, no genitals, no sight(blind), does he still sin, and have "unconfessed sin"? This is the situation in the Islamic world when a person "sins".

Yes. We are all born into sin. We have an inherent sin nature.

[jmwhalen]

To Super Jew:

You say: " I think you are confused when it comes to the issue of sin."

My comment: That is your "opinion". Specifically, the great confusion among believers, possibly including yourself, (despite how you graciously and eloquently you express your view), is failure to rightly divide the word of truth(2 Tim. 2:15), i.e., confusing the prophetic program, which has as its core the LORD God's dealing with unbelieving Israel and the unbelieving nations in judgment and wrath, which was "spoken about since the world began"(Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21-24), from the mystery program as revealed to the apostle Paul, which "was kept secret, hidden(in God, not the OT scriptures) since the world began (Romans 16:25; Ephesians 3:5,9; Colossians 1:26). I find it non-productive to discuss doctrinal questions, such as the "sin issue", OSAS, tongues/no-tongues, baptism/no baptism, healing/no healing, rapture/no rapture,"3 1/2 year, 7 year, mid-trib, post trib, pre-wrath" .......with anyone unless they have an understanding of the principal of "rightly dividing the word of truth"(2 Tim. 2:15), a command, and, in particular, distinguishing between the prophetic program and the mystery program, and the distinctive ministry of "the apostle of the Gentiles"(Rom. 11:13). People can ignore the distinctive ministry of Paul, and the fact of the mystery, which the LORD God wants you to see(Eph. 3:9). You can say "Zip, Nada", that is your choice. But until you are willing to meet me on that ground, which I suspect is unfamiliar territory to you and most, you will remain in a mass of confusion, "...carried about with every wind of doctrine...."(Eph. 4:14).

You say:"Justification is dealing with salvation, not communication."

My comment:

No, Justification is dealing with salvation, sanctification, glorification, AND ACCESS("communication"). You do not understand the FINALITY of Calvary-it is that simple. All believers are complete in Christ. I have complete access to God the Father because I am JUSTIFIED in His eyes through the completed work of His Son, not because I have/have not confessed my sins:

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access(emphasis mine) by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." Romans 1, 2

Peace means the war is over, which you do not accept. I was an enemy(Romans 5:10 ), but I am no longer. Only enemies need reconcilliation. God is not angry with me any longer, and is not imputing my sins to my account(2 Cor. 5:19). And by His grace, I have not only have been reconciled, but justified. As hard as it is for you to accept it, it is a FACT that when God looks at me, he does not see my sin, or my sins(sin, singular, was judged at Calvary, and all sins, plural, were forgiven by 1 Cor. 15:1-4-"my old man" was judged at the cross, all my sins are gone, never to be brought up again or charged to me again), nor my righteousness, he sees the righteousness of his Son. So then, if God the Father has a problem with me, he would then have to have a problem with the Lord Jesus Christ-impossible!

Notice Paul, "the apostle of the Gentiles"(Romans 11:13), and thus your apostle, since God is no longer dealing with Israel under the Law, and nations in this "dispensation of the grace of God"(Eph. 3:2)", but with individuals under grace, starts each of his letters with "grace and peace" from God our Father . If we were under the watchful eye of God waiting to pounce on us when we "stepped out of line"(which we do daily), and having to fear "loss of communication", that is not only an affront to the completed work of the Lord Jesus Christ, this is not "grace and peace." Peace means the LORD God has NOTHING against me. This involves:

1. That God has fully judged sin, upon the Lord Jesus Christ, my substitute.

2. That God was so fully satisfied with Christ's sacrifice, that he will eternally remain so; he will never take up the judgment of my sin again="What sin"?

3. That God is therefore at rest about me forever, however poor my and( your) understanding of truth, and however weak my (and your) walk is. God is looking at the blood of Christ and his righteousness, not my sins All the demanding claims of the Law were met by the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Our peace is not as between 2 nations before at war; but as a king and rebellious, rotten, guilty subjects. My heart is at rest because God, against which all sin is directed, has been fully satisfied at the cross(propitiation). "Peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" does not mean peace through what he is now doing, but through what he did do on the cross. All the majesty of God's holy and righteousn throne was satisfied by the Lord Jesus Christ by his death, burial, and resurrection. And now, being raised from the dead, the Lord Jesus Christ is our peace. But is is his past work at Calvary, not his present work of intercession, that all is based upon; and this gives all believers(or should-apparently you believe you have been denied "access") a sense of peace which he made through his blood.

Re. " By whom also we have access", the word "also" sets this blessing forth as distinct from and additional to that of peace with God. Through the Lord Jesus Christ, in whom we have believed, we have been given to the JUSTIFIED(the basis of our access) access into a wonderful standing in divine favor, totally "...accepted in the beloved...."(Eph. 1:6). Being in Christ, we have the very favor, access, in which Christ stands and has.

Again, the Holy Bible says that the Lord Jesus Christ died once for all sin and sins inclusively-all issues were settled, including THE BARRIER which prevented my communication with a holy LORD GOD=access. You do not teach that all issues were settled. You teach that when we sin, we must ASK for forgiveness lest our "fellowship", not "relationship"(i.e., our salvation/justification standing) "communication", our "access" be impacted in some way. Again, you refuse to understand the finality of the cross in all aspects of our relationship with and to God. While "short accounts" for forgiveness was the method God used to deal with the sin issue in the past(including the sacrificial system of continuous confession and sacrifice, and including the time of "the gospels"), it is no longer in this dispensation. I am complete in Christ(Col. 2:10), and thus there can never be a "fellowship" problem lest God somehow is not satisfied with the work of his Son. Either God took care of all issues, or he did not. You do not believe he did-I do.

Nowhere in Paul's inspired writings did the Lord Jesus Christ instruct him to teach about incremental forgiveness, or that we are to go to the "forgiveness bank" and to make a withdrawal each time we sin. Instead, you are to believe that we are forgiven, and to thank God, out of gratitude, and not fear(which never motivates man to serve God, as demonstrated by Israel's experience and testimony in the OT) for his grace! Is the riches of God's grace magnified when we believe in his completed work, and Christ's all inclusive forgiveness, or when you ask God to forgive you over and over again, when he told us that we have already been forgiven? Is your forgiveness conditioned based upon how many times you ask or plead or "confess", or are we to believe it is a done deal? I suggest you not ask "how you feel"(human emotions are unreliable and deceitful), or what you have heard from "mainstream" Christianity, which mostly fails to "rightly divide the word of truth", to find the truth in this dispensation.

You say:

Thus when Paul is addresing the issue of justification of sins he is dealing with our salvation, not our communication with God. Whilst our sin has already been dealt with concerning salvation, a sinful attitude or lifestyle within a Christian does cut off or hamper communication with God. Psalm 66:18 even states, "If I regard wickedness in my heart, the Lord will not hear;". You seem to just throw aside 1 John and say it does not apply, yet this is an inadequate handling of 1 John and even the rest of the scriptures presented that speak of how we must ask for forgiveness. How do you explain them?

My comment:

You fail to rightly divide. I do not "throw aside 1 John". I understand that while all scripture is "for our learning"(Romans 15:4), it is not for our obedience. We can learn many spiritual applications from all of the Bible, but doctrine for the Body of Christ in this dispensation is found in Romans through Philemon-only there will you find the doctrines of our salvation, justification, sanctification, glorification, propitiation......... as they pertain to us. Do you do the following, or do you just "throw it out"? Answer honestly and specifically, not in generalities:

Do you follow the Lord Jesus Christ as one under the Law?

"Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." Mt. 23:2,3/Galatians 1:4

=observe the law!

Do you do Mt. 5:29,30?

Or how about:

"And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them."

Do you follow the Lord Jesus Christ in circumcision(Luke 2:21)? Do you follow Him in going to the synagogue on the Sabbath day(Luke 4:16)?

Have you sold all your possesions? The Lord Jesus Christ commanded his disciples to:

Command given: Mt. 19:21' Mk. 10:21;Luke 12:33,18:22

Command obeyed: Mt. 19:27;Mk. 10:28;Luke 5:11, 18:28; Acts 2:44-45,4:32,34

Penalty for disobedience-death-Acts 5:1-11

Do you have "...all things common...": Acts 2:44, 4:32-34, 3:6

If you are not obeying all of this, you are "throwing it out"-no other conclusion. The truth is, all christians "rightly divide" the Bible, and distinguish between God's different dealings with mankind under different dispensations. Most, for example, in the most obvious example, distinguish between the OT and the NT. I am just showing you the proper division with regards to the forgiveness issue. You just won't obey the command to rightly divide with regards to this issue, and thus misunderstand the cross of cross and it's finality.

You say:

"So you are asserting that the Pauline letters are for the current church and that from Hebrews on is merely for the Tribulation church? How is this a biblical concept in any way, shape, or form?"

My comment: It is irrelevant what I "assert". We are told by the Lord Jesus Christ, when he appeared to the apostle Paul from heaven, that through Paul comes our doctrine for the Body of Christ, including the command of right division.

You say:

"Even if we forgo 1 John we see that Jesus gives us commands to ask for forgiveness from God or we will not be forgiven (in the communication sense). While salvation is eternal communication with God is dependent upon the time we are within. Thus in order to communicate with God we must have a sinful attitude removed from our lives".

My comment:

The Lord Jesus Christ taught the Law, which you just fail to realize. Again, do you do everything the Lord Jesus Christ said to do in Mt., Mark, Luke, and John? That is "law ground", and "kingdom ground", and is not applicable for doctrine to the Body of Christ in this dispensation of the grace of God.

Have you removed all of "your sinful attitude from your life"? I have not. If you say you have, then you have not been convinced that you are "guilty"(Romans 3:19). Your self righteousness shows. Additionally, as previously expounded, I do not need to remove my sinful attitude before I can communicate with God. My sinful attitude was judged at Calvary, and my access is in no way affected by what I do, by what I do not do, or by what I think("attitude"). Calvary settled that issue. You refuse to believe it.

You say:

"How can we sin if we do not know it is a sin? The definition of a sin is ursurping God's Will in order to uplift our own. It is going against God's Will. How can we fall into this definition if we do not know how we are violating God's Will? Regardless, a prayer of confession which states, "Forgive me of the sins I have committed today, those I know of and those I do not know of" should cover the issue fairly well.

My comment:

Again, you fail to realize 1. Sin is not just wrong acts, it is "not doing what you are suppose to do", and it is "wrong thinking". You refuse to recognize that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". The LORD God has pronounced all of us GUILTY, with no exceptions(read Romans again)-guilty of not only what we do, but guilty of falling short of his absolute standard, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST="who he wants us to be". You fail to recognize what sin is, and thus fail to understand the significance of the cross, and the reasons for it doctrinally, and 2.the finality of the cross in all issues, including access, as witnessed by your "should cover the issue fairly well." "fairly well"? No, the cross completely settled the sin issue, despite your failure to recognize it's finality.

"QUOTE

Additionally, God does not "grade on the curve" regarding the sin issue, distinguishing between "minor sins" and "major sins"(the Roman CC refers to this as "venial sins" vs. "mortal sins")-SIN IS SIN. And even if you could, our fellowship is based soley on the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ, and His resurrection, not your "fessing up"on sins that are too inumerable to count.

You say:

"If this is the case then I can sin as much as I want and still be able to communicate with God."

My comment:

The old "license to sin" argument. You thus show your lack of understanding of the principal of grace, and what a gift is. Grace teaches us not to sin, out of gratitude, not obligation and fear(which is syptomized by "confession"), as it is written:

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world..." Titus 2:11-12

QUOTE

Again, your self righteousness comes through clearly.

You say:

" I remember getting into a debate with you a few months ago and all you did was attack me. Please, refrain from personal attacks in here. This is not the Sports thread where you can say what you want. This is an educated debate, so please, keep it that way."

My comment:

You confuse tolerance for people with tolerance for ideas. I did not personally attack you, just your false doctrine. "All mushroom are not good-some will kill you". The Bible commands us to rebuke and correct false doctrine. I will continue to "call your hand"(or anyone else's), who attempts to undermine the all encompassing work of the Saviour, whether that be in regards to salvation/forgiveness, or in "communication". The cross is the final answer to all issues, and I will continue to preach this message, your requests not withstanding.

We are all soldiers in God's army. We are not to get out, sell out, be talked out, or pushed out. We are either to retire in this service at the Rapture, or die in it. We are to be volunteer soldiers, not babies or wimps. We are to be reliable, capable, dependable, and faithful. We are to "...stand fast in the faith, quit you like men...."(1 Corinthians 16:13)-grow up. I suggest you quit acting "like a baby"-grow up. Eternal destinies hang in the balance. This is a war-if your "feelings are getting hurt", either "go home", get your message straight, or read the T.V. Guide and watch the "Oprah Winfrey" show so you can "feel good about yourself and not get offended." The Lord Jesus Christ and the apostle Paul did not compromise on doctrine, and had no hesitancy to rebuke those in error. You can call it "personal attacks, but I answer onlt to the LORD God, and his charge to me to "preach sound doctrine."

I leave you with the following re "guilt":

http://www.richesofgrace.com/God's%20T...Forgiveness.htm

In Christ,

John Whalen

[apothanein kerdos]

The cross is the final answer to all issues, and I will continue to preach this message, your requests not withstanding.

grow up. I suggest you quit acting "like a baby"-grow up. Eternal destinies hang in the balance. This is a war-if your "feelings are getting hurt", either "go home", get your message straight, or read the T.V. Guide and watch the "Oprah Winfrey" show so you can "feel good about yourself and not get offended." The Lord Jesus Christ and the apostle Paul did not compromise on doctrine, and had no hesitancy to rebuke those in error. You can call it "personal attacks, but I answer onlt to the LORD God, and his charge to me to "preach sound doctrine."

Perhaps you should study the proper way to deliver your message. Paul is big on showing love, of which you have shown none.

I do not debate people who are so ignorant they believe an educated arguement involves insulting the other person. Until you apologize and state that you will not use ad hominem tactics, I refuse to debate you (though I must say, your points would be quite easy to respond to. So please, just promise to avoid personal attacks and apologize for the ones you have already laid forth).