Free Will?

[Steff]

Do we have Free Will?

The Bible constantly states God's omniscience and as a direct result constantly denies that we are the ones who chose our futures. There are some who are saved and some who are not saved, we know that the events in our lives make up our minds. These are events were set by God - so how does God chose who he will save or not?

"For chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love He predestined us to be adopted as sons through Jesus, in accordance with His pleasure and will"

Ephesians 1:4-6

"All people living on the Earth will worship it [satan], except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to the Lamb[Jesus] that was killed"

Revelation 13:8

"28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified"

(NIV) Romans 8:28-30

The Bible notes that God chooses, before the creation of the world, to save those according to his own will and pleasure. It also says that all other will worship Satan after judgement day and then be thrown onto the lake of fire after a thousand years, as their (second) eternal death. A severe punishment befalls those who God chooses not to save.

If the choice is known before we make it, it isn't a choice. So as a Christian and a scientist (Engineer) I have a hard time reconciling this.

The only thing I have come up with is that God denies the knowledge to himself of what we will choose so that we have free will to know him. Otherwise who is saved and who is not is arbitrary.

[Matthitjah]

Steff,

Good question.

I would take a good hard look at the lives of Esau and Jacob.

The Word of God states that Edom shall rebuild but God shall tear down. That God will be Glorified in His indignation against them forever.

Mal

[JesusisGod2]

I agree with Dave.

Predestination is a very hard thing to grasp, and yet I believe that I have been chosen since the foundation of the world.

I have scripture that I have studied that back this thought, but I will let others reply and see what they have to share.

Good verses Dave.

[Guest Jacee]

The difference between Esau and Jacob was the birthright and the importance of it to them. I just posted this on another topic, but will say it again. Esau's name was changed to Edom, or Adam. We see the same thing in Adam. He did not count the birthright of being the son of God as something more important than his own "flesh". If we look at the scriptures and understand that edomites are self willed, is much easier to understand. Jacob wrestled with the Angel of the Lord and would not let go until he was blessed. I believe that wrestling was a victory for Jacob over his flesh. He was a changed man after that and his name was changed to Israel.

Now as for as freewll; I can't see how anyone can say we have absolute freewill for we are influenced by something from our birth. Our own family line; our individual family we are born into; our environment and of course, satan, HolySpirit, and our own flesh. And others wills for our lives.

[Guest Pastor Frank]

It will make it much easier for you to deal with this issue if you drop Calvin's teachings which fortunately most Christians do not accept. I was raised in a Presbyterian church and our Yale educated minister didn't even teach Calvin's beliefs which incidently caused outbreaks of violence in the Christian community during his lifetime.

So to start with,the Bible does NOT deny that humans are the ones who chose our future.If that were the case,there would be no reason for Jesus to be sent to save the lost because from God's point of view,there would be no one to save.Just think of all the money the Calvinist churches are wasting sending out missionaries.Why try to convert those who are already chosen and why waste our time with those who can not be prevented from going to hell?Other than using them for bingo parlors,Calvinists must think that churches serve no good purpose other than to comfort those who are being sent to hell.Certainly those who are assured of salvation don't need a church education and if God has determined they will be saved,it isn't necessary for them to spend time in church when they can use their time to greater personal advantage by working and making money.If our fate is determined at birth,it's not even necessary to remain alive.Why go through all the suffering.temptation,and testing life gives us if we are predestined to go to heaven no matter what choices we make?Suicide becomes a logical choice for people who hold this distorted theory.I knew a 16 year old member of a Calvinist church who made just that decision.To retaliate against her father instead of honoring him,she killed herself, certain that her salvation was all set up for her no matter what she did.

There are a few verses in the Bible that seem to support Calvin's theory.The problem is the New Testament has to be accepted in its entirety.To understand Christianity you can't just pull out a few verses here and there which Calvin did.Considering the fact that the most basic function of the Christian church,following the example of Jesus and His disciples,is to reach the lost to prevent them from going to hell,the few verses that refer to predestination should be interpreted to refer to those few God has chosen and will raise up to serve Him in a unique ministry.This interpretation is seen clearly in the Romans 8 verse.The Revelation verse refers to a small number of very special Christians God has selected to live through the hell of the tribulation,again not a verse describing the majority or even a large number of Christians.So the bad news for the vast majority of us is that we have not been pre-ordained to go to heaven..Through our life choices,we determine our own fates which after all is the purpose of life;to prove our loyality to God or one of the many gods availabe like money,power,lust,fame or dedicating our lives to our country.

[Cerran]

N/T

Edited March 5, 2005 by Cerran

[Steff]

It's not that I do take a Calvinist view but how as Christians do we take two seemingly contrary ideas from the bible and mesh them to coincide with the bible's teachings and the idea of free will?

While I accept the lord Jesus as my savior I'm not sure I can accept the total omniscience of God if we truly have free will.

Any other passages to study you can recommend? This is where the logic side and the faith side clash for me.

[Matthitjah]

Steff,

Bless you brother. I would study the lives of Biblical hero's.

There was a time when King David was going to slay Nabal. Nabal was a fool, fool was his name. Yet Mercy prevailed and God took vengance on David's enemy.

Now David could have taken the matter into his own hands? Then whose will would have been prospering. Yes, it was God's will that Nabal should croak. Yet was David appointed at that time to bring it about?

There was a time that David could have slain Saul and ascended to the throne. Why not? He was anointed by Samuel, King. His friends urged him to take matters into his own hands. David would not. In due time though he recieved a Kingdom and a Throne from which God promised that he would never lack a Son to sit.

Jacee is right about Esau. Esau wasn't despised because he was a furry old redneck. Out hunting and spitting chew. Esau was despised of God because he found it burdensome to line himself up with God's will for his life. He despised the Word of God. When he came in from the field and sold his birthright for a bowl of red lentils, he despised his birthright. The Lord knew his heart from birth. Better to die of starvation than to sell your birthright for a bowl of lentils. What does the Word of God say?;

Mt

[Guest Jacee]

Great Post Dr. Luke!

I see in the new testament both sides of choice. There are those who have been chosen and nothing could be done against it. When the Lord decrees a thing, it will come to pass. And Paul is our ultimate example. But, there are also the whosoevers. We are chosen, or we may choose. Both are of Holy Spirit's drawing. He is always wooing us. All of us. There have been so many testimonys of those who had never heard of Jesus, and His appearing to them.

Free will? No one who is enslaved to satan is free. And one who is a bond slave to Jesus doesn't want to be free.

[Shane]

I personally believe in the doctrine of predestination.

Some of the greatest preachers in history held to that belief and this was only really changed with John Wesley when he disagreed with George Whitfield.

Two quotes I like:

"We are dependent on God, not only for redemption itself but for our faith in the Redeemer; not only for the gift of His Son but for the Holy Ghost for our conversion."

Edwards in a public lecture in Boston July 8, 1731

"Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure"

GEORGE WHITEFIELD TO JOHN WESLEY