Free Will?

[Deez131]

craig911,Mar 17 2005, 08:51 PM]

I am beginning to think you just have a less than amicable feeling for Calvinists. Is it the same for Presbyterians, Lutherans, Southern Baptists and so on. Do they not all believe that Christ died for their sins? Do they not all believe in the same God and same Bible? Hmmm...I wonder

I've actually gotten used to the less than amicable feelings and words toward Calvinism over the years. I was raised in the Mormon "church." It is only by His grace that He brought me out of that. I'm telling you though, seriously..... Christians used to be nice to me when I was a Mormon. They would listen to what I was saying and be all nice. Now that I am a Christian, man! It hasn't been really bad at all on these boards, but usually it's like pure hatred. How DARE I tell anyone they didn't bring about their own salvation. I could tell someone (when I was Mormon) that God was once a human man from another planet called Kolob and had many wives who he had sex with to create spirit children to populate this world - and I would get all smiles and warmness. Tell someone God is sovereign over them and they don't have the power to bring about their own salvation and...... wham! No one likes to hear that. I don't get it.

[Shane]

My head is beginning to hurt from banging it against the wall.    Again.....No, Calvinism doesn't teach this.  Quite the contrary.  The teaching is that man makes a choice for God because God has made him alive and turned the man's heart toward God. 

My head is hurting with you Deez. It seems a proper understanding of Calvanism is lacking. Matthew Henry is a great commentary, at least men like Henry read the bible without changing their theology justy because it did not fit their view of a loving God.

[Deez131]

My head is beginning to hurt from banging it against the wall.

[Cerran]

Human Rights? HUMANS HAVE NO RIGHT TO LIVE SINFUL LIFESTYLES!! We belong to God, and it is our OBLIGATION to live according to his word!!

I pulled this from another thread and was wondering how this relates to free will. I would say we have the right to live a sinful lifestyle, but that is certainly not what God wants from us.

If we look at ourselves as truly having free will then sin is our own personal choice.

I don't believe we have an obligation to live sin free but we do have a responsibility to try if we want to live according to God's wishes.

[his-servant-too]

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A FREE WILL. STOP FOOLING YOURSELVES.

HERE'S WHY:

1. WE HAVE TWO PATHS THAT HAS BEEN SET BEFORE US LIFE AND DEATH.

2. JOSHUA, THE SON OF NUN, STATED IT BEST, "IF IT SEEMS EVIL UNTO YOU TO SERVE GOD, THEN DON'T DO IT, AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE WE SERVE THE LORD."

3. NOTICE SOMETHING, HE PUT IT OUT THERE AS TWO CHOICES. SERVE GOD OR NOT. THESE ARE CHOICE THEY HAD AVAILABLE TO THEM. THERE WERE NO OTHER OPTIONS THEY COULD CHOOSE.

4. ADAM AND EVE DID NOT HAVE A FREE WILL. THEY COULD EAT OF THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT OR NOT. THEY HAD THE CHOICE TO OBEY GOD OR NOT. THERE WAS NO OTHER ALTERNATIVES.

5. BY OTHER ALTERNATIVES, THEY COULDN'T TELL GOD THAT THEY WOULD DO SOMETHING ELSE LIKE CHOP DOWN THE TREE SO HE COULDN'T FORCE THEM TO OBEY OR NOT. IF THEY HAD AN ABOSOLUTE FREE WILL, THEY COULD HAVE TRIED SOMETHING LIKE THIS. BUT THINK ABOUT IT, DO YOU THINK GOD WOULD HAVE LET THEM CREATE ANOTHER ALTERNATIVE TO THE ONES HE ALREADY ESTABLISHED? DON'T FOOL YOURSELF. NO.

6. THINK ABOUT YOUR OWN LIFE. DO YOU THINK YOU CAN ACTUALLY DO WHATEVER YOU WILL. NO. DON'T FOOL YOURSELF. THINK ABOUT IT REAL CLOSELY. WHAT IF SOMEONE WANTED TO BE THE RICHEST MAN IN THE WORLD, IF THEY HAD AN ABSOLUTE FREE WILL, THEY COULD ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISH THIS. BUT REALITY CLEARLY SHOWS US THAT IT'S NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR THIS TO HAPPEN. THERE ARE OTHER SITUATIONS, VARIABLES, CIRCUMSTANCES, PROBLEMS, AND SO ON, THAT INTERFERES WITH A PERSON EXCERSISING TOTAL FREE WILL.

7. WE ALL HAVE CHOICES BUT NO FREE WILL. FOR EXAMPLE, I CAN TELL MYSELF THAT I WILL BECOME A GREAT NUCLEAR SCIENTIST BEFORE I DIE. AS A CHRISTIAN, GOD HAS SOMETHING ELSE HE WANTS ME TO DO. HE WANTS ME TO TEACH. BUT I'M SO INSISTENT ON BECOMING A GREAT NUCLEAR SCIENTIST. ME BECOMING A GREAT NUCLEAR SCIENTIST IS NOT GOD'S WILL FOR MY LIFE. HE DOESN'T WANT OR NEED ME TO FILL THIS ROLE. HE WANTS ME TO TEACH. SO HE FRUSTRATES ALL MY EFFORTS AND CAUSES ME TO FAIL AT BECOMING A NUCLEAR SCIENTIST.

8. I CAN MISTAKENLY BELIEVE THAT I HAVE FREE WILL, BUT BOTTOM LINE IS I DON'T.

9. THERE IS SOMETHING THAT IS ALWAYS ACTING ON EVERYBODY'S DESCIONS AND THOUGHTS. ALWAYS. IN ORDER TO HAVE A FREE WILL, NOTHING COULD BIAS YOUR DECISIONS AND THOUGHTS. IT'S IMMPOSSIBLE TO LIVE IN THIS WAY.

10. FOR EXAMPLE, YOU CHOOSE A CERTAIN COLOR AS YOUR FAVORITE, BECAUSE YOU LIKE IT. IT BECOMES BIASED OVER ALL THE OTHER COLORS YOU COMPARE YOUR FAVORITE COLOR TOO. THE SAME THING WITH A FAVORITE FOOD THAT YOU LIKE. YOU MORE THAN LIKELY WILL CHOOSE IT BECAUSE IT TASTE BETTER TO YOU THAN THE OTHER FOODS THAT YOU COMPARE IT TO. SO YOUR FAVORITE FOOD ACTS ON YOUR DESCION PROCESS AND IT INFLUENCES IT WHENEVER YOU COMPARE IT TO OTHER FOODS.

11. JESUS SAID IT PLAINLY TOO, NO MAN CAN HAVE TWO MASTERS HE WILL LOVE ONE AND HATE THE OTHER.

12. IF WE HAVE ABSOLUTE FREE WILL THEN WHY WOULD WE HAVE A MASTER? WHY WOULD THE BIBLE REFER TO US AS SERVANTS AND SLAVES TO CHRIST? IF WE HAVE FREE WILLS THEN WHY WOULD CHRIST TELL US TO CONFORM OURSELVES TO HIM (OUR WILLS)?

13. THE BOTTOM LINE IS WE DON'T HAVE FREE WILL. DON'T FOOL YOURSELF WE HAVE CHOICES BUT NOT A WILL. WHEN GOD SET UP CONDITIONS FOR OUR LIVES WE CAN ONLY MAKE CHOICES WITHIN THOSE CONDITIONS BUT WE CAN'T OVERRIDE WHAT GOD HAS CALLED US TO BE OR BECOME. WE CAN'T OVERRIDE GOD'S WILL FOR OUR LIVES.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you don't have the free will to choose then how do you make a choice. With out free will there is no choice. If we didn't have free will we would all be going to heaven, NO CHOICE!

------------------------------------------

It's not that some people have willpower and some don't. It's that some people are ready to change and others are not.

James Gordon, M.D.

[Trinity]

haha here we Go!!!

God planning person A's day:

Tomorrow you will wake up at 6:00am, Um... You wont do devotions because i want to convict you and make you feel evil. You will not witness, you will not pray today, infact, i think ill make you steel a candy bar, and by the end of the day you will feel so evil.

God planning person B's day

Tomorrow you will wake up at 6:00am, Um... You will do devotions because i want to make you feel so Spirit filled. You will witness, you will pray today throughout the day, infact, i think you'll do some free work for the church tomorrow too, and by the end of the day you will feel so good.

God talking to person A:

Why can't you be more like person B? You should try alittle harder

... Yeh i see how predestination would work fairly...

[Guest PistosHuios]

Alright, I'm not sure if the original writer will get this, but I'm going to address the 4 major questions he has brought up.

Do we have Free Will?

My simple answer to this is no. The only will that is Free is God's. Our will, if God is in control of His creation, is bound at least by God's will. If an action is Positiviely against God's Decreed will, it cannot happen, God's will always happens, if He is God, and therefore, as creatures, we are at least bound by that limitation.

Second, Our wills our inevitably bound to our most positive inclination or desire, and the laws set by God (i.e. Gravity etc.) Our Choices are Limited first by our desires. The Bible declares our desires are wicked, and out of man comes nothing that is Good (Romans 3:11-19). That is the primary problem with the idea of "free will". The issue isn't whether or not we are free to choose, the question is, if we were would we EVER choose Christ?

The Bible constantly states God's omniscience and as a direct result constantly denies that we are the ones who chose our futures. There are some who are saved and some who are not saved, we know that the events in our lives make up our minds. These are events were set by God - so how does God chose who he will save or not?

By what Standard God Elects, is an issue that is Never discussed in the Bible. Only once (Romans 9) Does Paul get dangerously close to this question and his response was like this "who are you man to question God". What we know about God's Character is that He is Good, and He is Holy, and therefore His choices are not random, but purposed for a reason. The fact that some go to heaven and some don't is a question for both sides of the free will argument to reconcile. Free will advocates say the difference is a choice the person makes, Non-free will advocates say it's a choice that God makes. I lean toward the latter, knowing that "it is not of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of GOD" John 1:13.

If the choice is known before we make it, it isn't a choice. So as a Christian and a scientist (Engineer) I have a hard time reconciling this.

This is a difficult qustion to reconcile, if you believe that a known choice is no choice at all. The FACT is that this is simply not true. Just because God Knows, allows, and uses our chioces, does not mean we do NOT actually make choices. If the person doesn't already know the outcome of the choice, then to the person it is a real choice, and he is still responsible for the action even though God allowed it to take place. We think that Predestination means God makes EVERY chioce FOR Everyone, but in actuality God's Predestination means the choices are determined, it doesn't mean God Made them. That which was going to happen was Pre-determined, God knew it, allowed it, and in some cases decreed it. God's allowance of an evil choice, is always on His part for some GOOD reason. God allows an evil to take place, for some righteous reason.

In election, God does not do Violence to our wills. Rather he does a very gracious thing in reviving us to life, so that we can make a good chioce. He doesn't make the chioce for us, even though it is guaranteed that we will make the choice, we still go through with making it. God sends his Spirit to open our eyes in such a way that we WILL respond to the Gospel "my sheep hear my voice." The Holy Spirit is a Necessary Prerequisite to making a righteous chioce, otherwise we not only could not, but would not be so inclined, to make that choice.

The only thing I have come up with is that God denies the knowledge to himself of what we will choose so that we have free will to know him. Otherwise who is saved and who is not is arbitrary.

This is a dangerous theological stance. God's chioce NOT to know something, is God stepping down from All-Knowing to Some-Knowing. This step would remove Him from his position as God.

Remember, If God did what you state he must do in order for us to be "Free" we would not (accourding to Romans 3) ever choose him, and Christ would die in vain.

If God makes a choice, CAN it be arbitrary? The answer, if you have a proper understanding of the God of the Bible, is NO. God's Chioces are GOOD, HOLY, PERFECT, POWERFUL, WITH KNOWLEDGE, and WITH LOVE. Just because we do not understand the REASONS for his Choosing, doesn't make them arbitrary.

One thing is sure, we all deserve Hell, and God's reason for Choosing anyone, has nothing to do with THEM. We are told a number of times that "it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."

[Deez131]

Just one question.........

Does someone, in your opinion, have free will to believe the gospel apart from any work of the Holy Spirit?

[Guest PistosHuios]

One has never been accomplished, since the fall of Lucifer, and will never be accomplished. This will was that no sin ever occur and that all of God's creations served him for eternity. Obviously that has not happened, and from James we know that God did NOT cause it to fail to happen. He allowed it, but did not cause it.

The second is that Jesus Christ woudl die on the cross for the sin of man, and that "Whoseover will believe on him shall be saved." Those who believe, fulfill the will of God in their lives. Those who do not, do not fulfill the will of God in their lives. God does not force or cause any of this to happen.

I agree, with the sum of what you have said. We MUST distinguish between the Decreed will of God (That which Will happend) and the DESIRED Will of God (That which God Wants).

However, my disagreement comes, as it would of course in this debate, with the fact that God "DOES NOT FORCE OR CAUSE" any of it to happend. I realize you are speaking in regards to the following of a Man of God's Desired will. If God does NOT make it happend, my question is HOW then does it Happend.

Certainly the MAN doesn't choose to follow God of His own accord. If so, Romans 3 crumbles, and Paul is made a fool when he says "There is NONE who understand, none who seeks for God; all have turned away, together they have become useless"

You are absolutly correct to say that God does not originate evil. But you are just as wrong when you say that God does not CAUSE anyt of this to happen.

Let's again read James 1:17-18 which you RIGHTLY quoted says "Every good thing and every perfect gift bestowed is from above, coming down from the Fatehr of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. In the excercise of HIS will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we might be, as it were the first fruits among His Creatures."

This verse not only declares that ONLY Goodness comes from GOD and NO EVIL, but it also demonstrates clearly that ALL GOODNESS comes fomr God. and if there be any confusion James makes it perfectly clear that it is "IN THE EXCERCISE OF HIS WILL He brought us forth."

SO yes, God initiates NO EVIL, but we must be just as sure that he DOES initiate, and CAUSE ALL Good, right down to the Greates Good, our Salvation.

[Guest PistosHuios]

Does someone, in your opinion, have free will to believe the gospel apart from any work of the Holy Spirit

My answer is NO. Romans 3:11-19 declares the state of ALL MEN. James 1:17,18 Declares that God Alone originates Goodness, and that it is in the Excercise of his will that we are brought forth.

Any Goodness we display, is from God first, right down to the very act of faith itself.