Is God a Puppet or Master

[mel]

A puppet is controlled by others, a master controls others. A puppet acts according to its strings that are pulled. A master pulls the strings. Without realizing it, many people liken God to a puppet. For example, they say God wants to save sinners, (and He does), but the sinner must let Him. In other words, that God as a puppet acts according to the strings that the sinner pulls. I am convinced and convicted that God is Master and not a puppet. [And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest thou?] (Dan. 4:35) Beloved, If God wants to do something and cannot do it; then He is not doing according to His will, but according to the will of others, or those that pull the strings. [For the Son of man is come to seek and save that which was lost.] (Luke 19:10) It was our Savior

[Guest NewPilgrim]

Amen indeed

[Guest Pastor Frank]

This message is valuable as far as it goes but it appears to be a statement coming out of the Calvinist philosophy because it fails to discuss the "other side of the coin",the fact that the vast majority of us have to make the effort to obtain salvation by eliminating sin from our lives rather than being selected by God as His chosen without having to lift a spiritual finger on our own.Undoubtable there are certain holy persons that God has chosen from their early childhood to carry out a special mission for him.For instance I know a 15 year old girl who already has received the gift of healing.Unfortunately,most of us have to apply for employment to join God's team;He doesn't respond to us until we first contact Him and through our free will begin to follow the teachings of His Son.

There is another problem with Calvin's theory which holds that God has pre-destined those who will receive salvation,which if true,makes the whole reality of life's testing and temptations have no meaning at all.Why doesn't God take His predestined elect to heaven immediately to remove them from the evil,suffering and temptation of the world? The problem is that many people appear to clearly be called by God into service for Him but then through their own free will turn their backs on Him,thus proving the failure of Calvin's theory which is easily over-powered by the strength of human free will.Almost all of us personally know really good Christians who then totally changed and became evil.One of the best current examples is the former Associate Evangelist of the Billy Graham Evangelistic Assn.He was hand-picked by Billy Graham to step in and represent him when Billy was unable to attend an evangelistic meeting.I have heard from others that the spiritual power of this man was amazing and he is responsible for large numbers of people becoming Christians.Yet several years ago,he became an atheist and now makes a living giving speeches bashing Christianity as a simple-minded fairy tale.We should all pray that the "once saved always saved" belief doesn't cover him.

Of course God is not a puppet but neither are humans.God does select SOME people for salvation in advance of their commitment to Him but these same people have the ability and freedom to reject His call on their lives and in reality,the number who reject His call is far greater than those who accept it.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Frank,

This message is valuable as far as it goes but it appears to be a statement coming out of the Calvinist philosophy because it fails to discuss the "other side of the coin",the fact that the vast majority of us have to make the effort to obtain salvation by eliminating sin from our lives rather than being selected by God as His chosen without having to lift a spiritual finger on our own.Undoubtable there are certain holy persons that God has chosen from their early childhood to carry out a special mission for him.For instance I know a 15 year old girl who already has received the gift of healing.Unfortunately,most of us have to apply for employment to join God's team;He doesn't respond to us until we first contact Him and through our free will begin to follow the teachings of His Son.

God Bless you.

Nothing you can do will ever cleanse you from your sin. It is the gift of God. His very Grace that forgives you and enables you to be an overcomer. By Faith.

Ro

[Deez131]

Frank:

This message is valuable as far as it goes but it appears to be a statement coming out of the Calvinist philosophy because it fails to discuss the "other side of the coin",the fact that the vast majority of us have to make the effort to obtain salvation by eliminating sin from our lives rather than being selected by God as His chosen without having to lift a spiritual finger on our own.Undoubtable there are certain holy persons that God has chosen from their early childhood to carry out a special mission for him.For instance I know a 15 year old girl who already has received the gift of healing.Unfortunately,most of us have to apply for employment to join God's team;He doesn't respond to us until we first contact Him and through our free will begin to follow the teachings of His Son.

Frank,

If you could take that thought and look at it a different way for a second.....

The vast majority of religions and people think that they are responsible for "doing something" as part of gaining their salvation. They think that God could not possibly expect them to do nothing. They think that just accepting His gift of salvation isn't good enough because they need to do something to help it along or to be able to deserve it. As my Mormon step-father put it to me, "Well, that's pretty arrogant to think that God's going to give you salvation without you having to do anything." My reply to that (blunt as it was) was, "It would be more arrogant of me to think that I could do anything to obtain my salvation." When He says it's a gift, it really is. He gives it to us. He gives us the gift of faith to be able to even make a choice for Him. Not because we're worthy or do anything to earn it, but because - for whatever reason - He has decided to show mercy upon his sheep.

....And Dave......

Who called them?

Joh

[IreneM]

we are not puppets in any sense of the word either

We are given free will

Gods Laws never change mans does we follow Gods Laws because we choose to do so not because we are forced to do so do we follow them all the time no that is what makes us sinners.

Are we predestend as the calven believers think I do not believe so

I do believe that God knows the choice we will make and that He knows how we will live our lives belonging to HIM or the devil .

God a puppet NO

We as puppets NO

In Christ

IreneM

[Deez131]

we are not puppets  in any sense of the word either

We are given free will

Gods Laws  never change  mans does  we follow Gods Laws because we choose to do so not because we are forced to do so  do we follow them all the time  no  that is what makes us sinners.

Are we predestend  as the calven believers  think  I do not believe so

I do believe that God knows the choice we will make  and that  He knows how we will live our lives  belonging to HIM or the devil .

God a puppet  NO 

We as puppets  NO

In Christ

IreneM

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Irene,

Predestination isn't a "Calvinist" term, it's a Biblical term. If you don't agree with it, may I suggest you look up the term in the Bible? Lots of people tend to pin "predestination" on Calvinists. That's fine, but they need to realize that it is first and foremost a Biblical term.

As far as free will goes. I'm not saying we have NO free will or that we're "puppets". I'm saying our free will is guided by something. Either our regenerated heart or our heart that is dead in sin. If our heart is dead in sin, we won't (and can't) choose Christ. Check out Romans 3. If our heart is changed by Him, we WANT to choose Him. I'm not going to get upset with Christ for changing my heart to want to choose Him and thus "violating" my free will, as I've heard people say. I thank and praise the Lord that for whatever reason (certainly not from anything I've done) He saw fit to grant mercy upon me and regenerate my heart to love Him.

Denise

[Deez131]

Just a side note. Something I've noticed in the gizillions (ok.....maybe gizillions is and exaggeration )of times I've talked about this whole issue is this:

Man seems to worry, deny and get downright upset if there is any indication that God has "violated" his free will in anything. We're really concerned with that, but I don't see many arguements defending God's free will - or His choice to do things the way He wants to. God is a just God. He doesn't "owe" us anything. He gives mercy to those He chooses and gives justice to others. Romans 9:14-16: What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. I've heard so many people get so irate and claim that this is "not fair" and God would never do things this way. You can look at the natural response to that a few verses later in verse 20: On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? Yikes! I'm not gonna. His plan is His plan and it's the way He wants to do it. I think we need to step back and realize how blessed we really are to be a part of it.

[Matthitjah]

Deez,

Amen sister. Hallelujah!

I believe that you are correct. We want to encapsulate God into our way of thinking. So that Logically He fits into a nice litttle box of our minds eye. We see though that looking on Him is even impossible for the minds eye. We cannot comprehend His Beauty or Majesty in this state. Thank God we shall all be changed.

God is a responsible Creator. He has taken responsibility for His Creation. He has made a way. It does not play well with our flesh at times. It doesn't speak softly to our ear. Our will and flesh desires to say,"I did it!" "I provided!" We desire to control the circumstance of our Salvation. On our terms. Can the clay really say to the potter?

Isa

[Deez131]

Thanks Dave. I appreciate that.

Ya know, I've been thinking about this all morning. (I have a huge passion for discussing this stuff ). I was remembering how I used to feel about my salvation..............Unsure.

The Lord smacked me upside the head and then changed my heart while I was attending a non-denominational church back in 1995. The teaching was, uh... watered down. It was all pretty much Biblical stuff, the Pastor just didn't get into theology much (scary thought, huh?). Anyway, I seriously thought that it was up to me to believe and THEN I would be saved because I believed "good enough." I believed the burden was on me. I always worried that I hadn't believed "good enough" for me to really, really, really be saved. I begged God over and over to help me believe good enough and told Him that I really wanted to one day be in Heaven with Him. Looking back, I know I was saved already, just unsure. Anyway, I tormented myself with this until I realized, through studying and praying (and fighting what I was studying for a LONG time! ) that I'm not the one who does it. What a HUGE relief! To know that I didn't have to depend on whether I accepted the right way or believed good enough...that my salvation was of God, not of me. It was completely His doing and because of that I could rest assured that He did it right. That, to me, is the most comforting thing in the world.