Homosexuality...

[eric]

It surprises me the length people will go to, to argue or try and rearrange God's word to suit their own their own life style.

Of course they will always find a few to back them up, mostly of the mormon faith as were Donny and Marie,

cheers,

eric.

Edited April 4, 2005 by eric

[angels4u]

Proverbs 14:12, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." According to what God says we can loose our soul by doing what seems right in our own eyes. . Men want to do things their way and as it seems right in their own eyes..

Angels

[Esh]

Ishah can mean woman or it can mean wife depending on the context.  When it says wife it means wife in Genesis 2.  The context distinguishes between woman and wife in that chapter.

What is it about the context which makes you think that eshah should be interpreted as wife and not woman?

The same is when using the word gune' in greek for wife in Matt 19:5-6. Jesus is quoting from that passage in Genesis.  The reference  means wife or married woman as it used in both of these OT and NT references.

Gune' can also mean either woman or wife.

Deut. 17:15-17

    Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the Lord thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother. [16] But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the Lord hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way. [17] Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.

Rabah, translated as multiply, means to become much or to become numerous.

The KJV rendering of b'thulaw as maid instead of virgin is incorrect. Almah could be correctly translated as maid, but not b'thulaw

Wrong. Bethulâh is derived from bâtthal, and is related to bâdal, which means "to separate.  It refers to a young maiden still living in her father's house and still a long way from being married.

Is this just your opinion, or do you have a reference?

The Brown, Driver, Briggs, Gesenius Lexicon gives no meaning other than virgin.

Amâh, on the other hand is a reference to a fully mature virgin who is  approaching the time of her marriage.  That is why almah is translated virgin in Isaiah 7:14. Mary was not a bethulah, but was a fully mature virgin betrothed and approaching the time of marriage.

The lexicon disagrees with you:

'amah {aw-maw'}

apparently a primitive word;

TWOT

- 112; n f

AV

- handmaid 22, maidservant 19, maid 8, bondwoman 4, bondmaids 2; 55

1) maid-servant, female slave, maid, handmaid, concubine

1a) of humility (fig.)

Bethulâh translated as maid is correct in Exodus 22 because it reads, "If a young man entice a maid that is not betrothed..." That is the correct rendering in English of bethulâh .

You have just contradicted your own definition of bethulah, since you said that the word means a virgin who is far from being married.

"If a man entices a virgin who isn't pledged to be married, and lies with her, he shall surely pay a dowry for her to be his wife. WEB

And if a man entice a virgin that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely pay a dowry for her to be his wife. ASV

If a man takes a virgin, who has not given her word to another man, and has connection with her, he will have to give a bride-price for her to be his wife. BBE

And if a man seduce a virgin that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall certainly endow her, to be his wife. DBY

And if a man entice a virgin that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely pay a dowry for her to be his wife. JPS

And when a man doth entice a virgin who 'is' not betrothed, and hath lain with her, he doth certainly endow her to himself for a wife; YLT

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Apr 4 2005, 11:17 AM)

Ishah can mean woman or it can mean wife depending on the context.

[Guest Bro David™]

It really is sad that this is the state of the modern church, that even "christians" think its ok to commit these abominations.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed, again in a worthy enough cause when we debate the issues I am always amazed that what the Bible says so clearly could mean a totaly diff" thing to learned men/women.

With Love

David King

[Esh]

Adultry constitutes ANY sex between a man or woman who are not lawfully married.

Wrong. Adultery always involves the wife of another man.

na'aph:

1) to commit adultery

.a) (Qal)

..1) to commit adultery

...a) usually of man

....1) always with wife of another

...b) adultery (of women) (participle)

..2) idolatrous worship (fig.)

.b) (Piel)

..1) to commit adultery

...a) of man

...b) adultery (of women) (participle)

..2) idolatrous worship (fig.)

It really is sad that this is the state of the modern church, that even "christians" think its ok to commit these abominations.

I am not a "christian".

Do you think it was an abomination for David to have wives and concubines?

And David took [him] more concubines and wives out of Jerusalem, after he was come from Hebron: and there were yet sons and daughters born to David.

2 Samuel 5:13

Because David did [that which was] right in the eyes of YHWH, and turned not aside from any [thing] that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

1 Kings 15:5

[Esh]

Do you think it was an abomination for David to have wives and concubines?

Yes. David was not perfect by any means.

So how do you reconcile this perceived abomination with 1 Kings 15:5?

Because David did [that which was] right in the eyes of YHWH, and turned not aside from any [thing] that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

1 Kings 15:5.

Now you take things out of context again. Because David also took a census of Israel against the command of the Lord, for which many thousands of people died because of it.

So many times when people lose their arguments with me they trot out the tired old escape clause: "you're taking it out of context". Can you explain why you think my argument is invalid because of context?

In the Leviticus we see that if two people have consensual sex that are not married, they were to be put to death. It did not matter who they were or whether or not one or more of them was married.

Reference please.

Really what it amounts to is the same old thing, man wanting to justify himself to God.

His laws are there for a reason. The Pharisees add to the burdens of men by making the laws more difficult to keep.

Do you not read the Gospels? Jesus did away with the mere "fence laws".

What?

Not only is it a sin to have intercourse with someone other than your lawfully wedded spouse of the opposite sex, but it is also a sin to even want to do so.

Wrong. That argument depends on the definition of adultery, which does not include sex with an unmarried woman.

[Esh]

>>Ishah can mean woman or it can mean wife depending on the context. When it says wife it means wife in Genesis 2. The context distinguishes between woman and wife in that chapter.

What is it about the context which makes you think that eshah should be interpreted as wife and not woman?

>>Because when ishah is used to denote her gender in Gen. 2:22-23, She is woman or literally "man with a womb."

Your stated reason supports the interpretation of woman rather than wife.

>>Ishah is translated as wife in v.24 when it is being used the context of her relationship as a helper to her husband. Look at how many times through the Tenach that ishah is used in reference to a married woman.

The meaning of 'married', in the Tanach, is when a man has dominion over a woman (Isaiah 62:5).

This [is] the thing which YHWH doth command concerning the daughters of Zelophehad, saying, Let them marry to whom they think best; only to the family of the tribe of their father shall they marry.

In this verse marry is a translation of ishah.

>>The same is when using the word gune' in greek for wife in Matt 19:5-6. Jesus is quoting from that passage in Genesis. The reference means wife or married woman as it used in both of these OT and NT references.

Gune' can also mean either woman or wife.

>>gune' can mean one of three things. It can denote an unmarried virgin, a married woman or a widow.

gune can also mean an unmarried woman who is not a virgin:

Woman

(From International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)

woom'-an ('ishshah, "a woman" (feminine of 'ish, "a man"); gune, "a woman" "wife"):

>>[17] Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.

Rabah, translated as multiply, means to become much or to become numerous.

>>Yeah, and your point is...?

That the prohibition was against numerous wives rather than more than one.

The KJV rendering of b'thulaw as maid instead of virgin is incorrect. Almah could be correctly translated as maid, but not b'thulaw

>>In old KJV, Elizabethan English, a maid (or maiden) WAS a virgin. They had a term called "old maid." It meant a woman who had never married, and had never lain with a man. So splitting hairs over "virgin" or "maid" is kind of silly.

Hoverever, in contemporary Eniglish the meaning is different, in that is not apparent that a maid should be a virgin.

The KJV rendering of b'thulaw as maid instead of virgin is incorrect. Almah could be correctly translated as maid, but not b'thulaw

>>Wrong. Bethulâh is derived from bâtthal, and is related to bâdal, which means "to separate. It refers to a young maiden still living in her father's house and still a long way from being married.

Is this just your opinion, or do you have a reference?

>>I am Jewish, and I study and speak Hebrew. There is no "opinion" where Hebrew is concerned. Hebrew is a very precise language, and there are few lexicons or

dictionaries that do it justice.

>>Amâh, on the other hand is a reference to a fully mature virgin who is approaching the time of her marriage. That is why almah is translated virgin in Isaiah 7:14. Mary was not a bethulah, but was a fully mature virgin betrothed and approaching the time of marriage.

The following text is also from a Jew who speaks Hebrew:

This Hebrew word ha

Edited April 5, 2005 by traveller

[Esh]

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

So again, not only is it a sin to do the physical act, but is a sin to even want to. Jesus defined adultery as "Looking at a person and thinking in your heart, 'they are fine, I wouldn't mind having them alone for a while.'"

If your interpretation were correct, it would be adultery for a man to lust after his wife.

Dueteronomy 22:20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: 21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

What was her sin?

"to play the whore in her father's house"

1) to commit fornication, be a harlot, play the harlot

.a) (Qal)

..1) to be a harlot, act as a harlot, commit fornication

..2) to commit adultery

..3) to be a cult prostitute

..4) to be unfaithful (to God) (fig.)

.b) (Pual) to play the harlot

.c) (Hiphil)

..1) to cause to commit adultery

..2) to force into prostitution

..3) to commit fornication

I interpret this as meaning that she was unfaithful to her father because she was under his authority while she was in his house.

Was she literally prostituting herself for gain? Not necessarily. But she is convicted of whoredom on the basis of loss of virginity before marriage.

Yes, but within the context of being given in marriage to a man who expected her to be a virgin.

Friend, that is about as blunt as it can get that sex outside marriage is a sin.

No, you have generalised a particular case.

[Esh]

"fornication", according to Strongs includes, but is not limited to:

adultery.

Premarital sex.

Lust.

Harlotry.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fornication is not defined by the Strongs definition of zanah.

The meaning of fornication is derived from fornix, meaning brothel.

There is no reference to premarital sex or lust in the Strongs definition.

Paul's fornication is derived from the Greek porneo, meaning sexual immorality.

The code of sexual morality is defined by the Torah, which does not forbid sex outside of marriage. This is evidenced by the lack of any explicit commandment to this effect and the fact that David had both wives and concubines, and this was not considered to be an offence per 1 Kings 15:5.