Do Pastors need a gun?

[HAZARD]

Criminals obey no laws, Every law abiding citizen should be allowed to carry a firearm. I was camping with permission on a close friends private property with my family, we were on a hunting and fishing weekend when a vehicle drove down the dirt track into our camping area beside the river .We were confronted by three rough looking characters who eyed our camp site, our property, and both of my teenage daughters, muttering amongst themselves. I told them they were on private property and asked them to leave. They laughed, verbally abused me, demanded money, started going through our personal property.

I cried out stop, I have money in my truck and walked straight to the passenger door, opened it, pulled out my Model 870, Remington Express Pump action Shotgun, (Chuck-Chuck), loaded it whilst pointing it in their direction.

They took of like the cowards they were, we never saw them again! My daughters often remember that day saying, "Wonder what would have happened dad, had we not been armed?"

[Neighbor]

On 12/12/2016 at 7:15 PM, Sharnadeen said:

I don't believe Pastors need a gun because the Lord's angels can suffice. What are your thoughts and why?

My thought? My experience tells me everyone that finds need for defense might want to take weaponry training.

And that training had better include learning as best one can the legal consequence of using weaponry, as much as the training to use it effectively.

Should Elders teachers pastors priests etc. arm themselves? Up to them individually. BUT  the practical experiences of this world and including this country would lead me to arm myself  if I were teaching the word of God and making myself the target of many in so doing.

HOWEVER, I would not want to appear before my Lord and savior having to justify having killed a robber, over the potential loss of physical property. Nor would I want to face a local prosecutor to defend my action of shooting a thief either. I must know when it is property or my family that is at risk of loss. If it is my family, then all efforts will be used to stop the attack, we will sort the legalities out later.

Locally, we provide protection for our pastor, plus elders, deacons; and the whole local body of Christ when we gather. We protect our young as they receive education. We are not going to be unwise in caring for our own. 

Churches and Christian schools do receive threats, and in some cases real attacks. It is reality of the day.

 

p.s.

Let me add to the subject this question, what do you think is best, when a deranged noncustodial parent comes to grab a kid at a school. Do you think it is best to be unarmed and untrained  on how to try to stop the abduction and  just phone the local police authority? Or ...

Edited December 14, 2016 by Neighbor

[HAZARD]

23 minutes ago, existential mabel said:

urm well they wouldnt be allowed to have one in the uk . so that wouldnt even be a legit question. gosh you guys over the pond and the gun culture never fails to amaze me

Its not a culture at all. Its using ones God given common sense and ability to defend and protect ones self and ones family.

There's an old saying "When seconds count, the Police are minutes away". Most have large areas that they have to patrol and they can't be Johnny on the spot. You have to be responsible for your own safety. Gun Grabbers don't understand that.

I was at work one night when my wife heard gunshots in the neighbourhood. She immediately rang police and they told her to lock the doors and windows, they will be there as quick as possible. That was 10 years ago, she's still waiting.

[HAZARD]

11 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

My thought? My experience tells me everyone that finds need for defense might want to take weaponry training.

And that training had better include learning as best one can the legal consequence of using weaponry, as much as the training to use it effectively.

Should Elders teachers pastors priests etc. arm themselves? Up to them individually. BUT  the practical experiences of this world and including this country would lead me to arm myself  if I were teaching the word of God and making myself the target of many in so doing.

HOWEVER, I would not want to appear before my Lord and savior having to justify having killed a robber, over the potential loss of physical property. Nor would I want to face a local prosecutor to defend my action of shooting a thief either. I must know when it is property or my family that is at risk of loss. If it is my family, then all efforts will be used to stop the attack, we will sort the legalities out later.

Locally, we provide protection for our pastor, plus elders, deacons; and the whole local body of Christ when we gather. We protect our young as they receive education. We are not going to be unwise in caring for our own. 

Churches and Christian schools do receive threats, and in some cases real attacks. It is reality of the day.

 

p.s.

Let me add to the subject this question, what do you think is best, when a deranged noncustodial parent comes to grab a kid at a school. Do you think it is best to be unarmed and untrained  on how to try to stop the abduction and  just phone the local police authority? Or ...

Hi Neighbour.

The place I feel safest in Australia is when I am out hunting, and when I am at the gun club. I started using firearms around age 12, I am now 70 years old, never broke one law, never hurt anyone, saved my families life with a firearm. Had I told the perp's, hold on, while I call the police, we would all be dead now. Did you read what God's Word says about self defence?

What the Bible says about self-defense       

 In the following verses, Jesus spoke of spiritual matters, but used principles which He and his audience accepted as true (I cannot believe that Jesus would use as a teaching example something which was not lawful)

Luke 11:21-22
21 "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace.
22 But when a stronger than he comes upon him and overcomes him, he takes from him all his armour in which he trusted, and divides his spoils."

And how can the master of the house prevent his house from being broken into except that he use deadly force?

Luke 12:39, "But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into."

Which leads us back to Exodus 22:2

Exodus 22:2
2 "If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed."

 

Pro 25:26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring.

Jesus told His disciples to arm themselves before He sent them out where there were robbers and murder's.

Luke 22:36, Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

A minister once said that he doubted that the disciples carried weapons, I mentioned this Scripture;

Luke 22:38, And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

[HAZARD]

This is what the police mostly do here in Aus. since the gun steal back after Port Arthur, after a home invasion, a drive by shooting, a fatal robbery by a drug crazed criminal;

They draw a white line around the victims body, cover it with a sheet, clean up after the fact; hopefully, one day, find and arrest the criminals so the DA can plead them down and get them back on the street as soon as possible. That way they can commit another crime and the whole cycle begins again - called job security for those folks..........................

 

[woundeddog]

My church encourages legal concealed carry we actually have a class room in our basement set up for firearms safety and NRA sanctioned concealed carry classes== our pastor does not need to carry a gun-- the bad guys will never get past the deacons and ushers~~~ personally I am certified and do carry always.

I personally do not worry so much about my safety- but I have a wife, daughters and grandchildren- hopefully things will tighten up soon and street crime will be less of a threat-- but the sheriff of the county I minister in said to the citizens- get a legal gun, it will take us at least 15 minutes to get to you in a bad situation

[Neighbor]

5 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Hi Neighbour.

The place I feel safest in Australia is when I am out hunting, and when I am at the gun club. I started using firearms around age 12, I am now 70 years old, never broke one law, never hurt anyone, saved my families life with a firearm. Had I told the perp's, hold on, while I call the police, we would all be dead now. Did you read what God's Word says about self defence?

What the Bible says about self-defense       

 In the following verses, Jesus spoke of spiritual matters, but used principles which He and his audience accepted as true (I cannot believe that Jesus would use as a teaching example something which was not lawful)

Luke 11:21-22
21 "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace.
22 But when a stronger than he comes upon him and overcomes him, he takes from him all his armour in which he trusted, and divides his spoils."

And how can the master of the house prevent his house from being broken into except that he use deadly force?

Luke 12:39, "But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into."

Which leads us back to Exodus 22:2

Exodus 22:2
2 "If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed."

 

Pro 25:26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring.

Jesus told His disciples to arm themselves before He sent them out where there were robbers and murder's.

Luke 22:36, Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

A minister once said that he doubted that the disciples carried weapons, I mentioned this Scripture;

Luke 22:38, And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Hi back HAZARD,

I appreciate the Biblical references along with  personal application guidelines!

And I agree, plus like many today I too, have gone through the NRA  and other self defense programs, along with the in close defense courses with weaponry other than firearms.

BUT- I also know that I do not want  to kill anyone over stuff, -property. For it will likely be a neighborhood kid, a still foolish teen, that  does try to break in and steal. I'd as a personal choice would rather lose some property to a fool from the neighborhood, some kid that has a parent a mom or a dad  or a sister or brother that still loves them. I'd rather take the personal risk to me than shoot one of them. Nonetheless if the risk is to my wife, that is another story altogether.

My greater fear now is to be at a public gathering place, a restaurant, with all these newly permitted folks each carrying, when the bad guy enters and threatens. Then all the people jump up, start shooting and get confused as to who  are the bad guys as the weapons start discharging, and everyone gets to shooting  and hurting each other. - And the bad guys walk away unscathed. Even worse, with the rational nervousness of the police is to be the one  still standing after the gunfight, still holding a weapon, when the police finally do arrive. That's not going to be a fun scene.

[Sharnadeen]

11 hours ago, LadyKay said:

Well I've been reading the post here and I am sort of confused as to what is being asked. Is it wrong for pastor to carry a gun? Is that the question that is being asked?  If so I do not see why it would be wrong for a pastor to carry a gun.  Are you saying that a pastor that carries a gun is show a lack of faith? I think  this would fall under a personal choice thing. 

 

13 hours ago, warrior12 said:

A pastor needs a sword, which is the word of GOD.   Yes, he is flesh and blood, but above that he is a spiritual man, who does not fear man and is not afraid of he who can kill the body  and not the soul, but he who can kill both  body and soul.   As the saying goes, everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.   

Matthew 10King James Version (KJV)

²⁸ And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

My point exactly Warrior12. If the Shepherd is afraid, what does he expect the sheep to do?

[LadyKay]

1 hour ago, Sharnadeen said:

My point exactly Warrior12. If the Shepherd is afraid, what does he expect the sheep to do?

If someone were to try to harm me. I would do what ever I can to defend myself and keep myself from being harmed. But I am not afraid to die. So don't assume that just because someone carries a gun that they are afraid to die. It maybe that their intention is to protect others. 

With that said I do not like this rush to judgement. The ideal that you can make the call that someone is afraid to die because they carry a gun. Not wanting to die and not being afraid to die are two different things.  The same could be said about someone who locks their doors at night. Am I afraid of someone busting into my home and killing me. No. But I still do not want someone to do try to do it. Is locking my door a sign that I have little faith in God's protection on my life? Not at all. For the way I see it, God is the one who provided me with a door that locks and the  common sense to lock it. 

[The_Patriot21]

8 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Hi back HAZARD,

I appreciate the Biblical references along with  personal application guidelines!

And I agree, plus like many today I too, have gone through the NRA  and other self defense programs, along with the in close defense courses with weaponry other than firearms.

BUT- I also know that I do not want  to kill anyone over stuff, -property. For it will likely be a neighborhood kid, a still foolish teen, that  does try to break in and steal. I'd as a personal choice would rather lose some property to a fool from the neighborhood, some kid that has a parent a mom or a dad  or a sister or brother that still loves them. I'd rather take the personal risk to me than shoot one of them. Nonetheless if the risk is to my wife, that is another story altogether.

My greater fear now is to be at a public gathering place, a restaurant, with all these newly permitted folks each carrying, when the bad guy enters and threatens. Then all the people jump up, start shooting and get confused as to who  are the bad guys as the weapons start discharging, and everyone gets to shooting  and hurting each other. - And the bad guys walk away unscathed. Even worse, with the rational nervousness of the police is to be the one  still standing after the gunfight, still holding a weapon, when the police finally do arrive. That's not going to be a fun scene.

I dont really want to kill anyone over property. if they want my wallet or my big screen TV they can have it. I carry a gun to protect me and my family, a threat to human life would be about the only reason I would pull my weapon. If theyre just after material possessions, im apt just to let them have them. 

As to your public gathering place, keep in mind most people who carry a gun, are not trained. If someone comes in and start shooting, well, chances are people are going to get killed whether anyone shoots back or not, chances are better if someone shoots back. 2, yes a lot of people now have new permits, but statistically, even in states like wyoming that has a unusually high number of gun owners and people carrying, your still only talking maybe 2 out of 10 people may have a gun on them. and 3, since many are not trained, theres a high chance they may not even shoot back! even trained soldiers, in the first time in combat, wont fire a single shot, but will tell you (and believe) they unloaded entire magazines at the enemy.

In a 1 on 1 encounter, like a mugging, attempted kidnapping, etc. the mere sight of a firearm is often enough to deter a criminal. In the case of a mass shooting, well, the shooter is most likely to choose a gun free zone so as not to be shot at. In the case that the shooter is an idiot and goes after a area with lots of shooters, ill take my chances with friendly fire....because people shooting back is the most effective way to stop a mass shooter. if no one shoots back, we all die. If we shoot back, theres a chance of friendly fire....but its a lower chance then being mowed down unarmed.