The Rapture of the Church

[ENOCH2010]

I think Rev.21  also says that there is no need for a temple because the Lord is the Temple

[Keras]

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

Not to the Scripture but to the Scripture REFERENCE, and if you deny that God's throne is in Heaven, you have no business making any further comments.  To suggest that God's throne is "a spiritual concept" borders on blasphemy.

No need to get nasty, others do that.

Of course God's Throne is in heaven. But where is heaven?  Not in our dimension, but in a spiritual dimension. Agree?

Are you unable to admit that 'heaven' is not found in Revelation 7:1-17?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 hours ago, Keras said:

very soon the truth will literally hit you.

You are not God; you are not the purveyor of Truth.

Your theology and your eschatology are perverse to me, and I have a plethora of reasons to think you're all wrong.

You confuse Israel's prophecies for the Church and you take so many things out of context that I don't trust a single verse you reference or any interpretation you hold.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

The spiritual realm of Heaven may be more "real" than these dimensions of space, time and matter He created.

Remember that the Temple layout God gave Moses is but a poor copy of what is in Heaven.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Marcus O'Reillius

[Marcus O'Reillius]

43 minutes ago, ENOCH2010 said:

I think Rev.21  also says that there is no need for a temple because the Lord is the Temple

That is after the earth and heavens have been done away with and on the eighth day, God creates anew.  And we will not remember the former times we live in now.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

9 hours ago, eileenhat said:

one you might want to back out of using regarding defending your own stance on Revelations.  Which I do not agree with, generally speaking.

I just note you like to pick on users of this forum.  So I am picking right back.

So my mom was wrong?  Two wrongs do make a right?

Speaking of wrong - I note that most detractors to my view just make sweeping condemnations of it, rather than be specific as I am of keras and his ridiculous take on Isaiah 30:26.

I look at the book of Revelation as being comprised of parallel accounts.

• Ch 1: Opening
• Ch 2-3: Vision of the Churches - which can be interpreted in multiple ways and layers, and which has both a past and a future component.
• Ch 4-11 (exclusive): The broad overview which I name the "Seal/Scroll chronology."
• 11:1-13: An interlude in the broad overview when John is told not to write, given tasks, and additional information.  I call this portion of the interlude begun in chapter 10 as the "Sidebar" account, like when the Judge calls the opposing lawyers up for a conference and imparts additional information/judgment.
• Ch 12: The two, twin parallel accounts.  The first focuses on the Woman, Israel (Gen 37:9-10); the second on the dragon Satan.  Both run around 2000 years in their "timeline."
• Ch 13-16: The detailed parallel account of just the one 'seven' which I call the "Rise and Fall of the anti-Christ."
• Ch 17 and 18: Explanatory in nature showing how figurative language has real-world literal applicability.
• Ch 19-22: The Epilogue, starting just before the end of the one 'seven' and going all the way forward to the "eighth" day of God's Creation begun in Genesis 1:1 to the New Heavens and the New Earth.

Care to be specific?  Or are you just going to tell me that the Holy Spirit told you otherwise?

[Keras]

3 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Speaking of wrong - I note that most detractors to my view just make sweeping condemnations of it, rather than be specific as I am of keras and his ridiculous take on Isaiah 30:26.

Just to clarify: Marcus prefers to not read the first part of Isaiah 30:26 literally. Even though what is said is repeated; The sun will shine seven times brighter, like seven days in one.... He denies this possibility, even though secular scientists warn us that the sun can, and has exploded out great masses of superheated hydrogen and is likely to do so again.  Marcus thinks this will totally destroy the world, but he forgets that God is in control and what will happen will be a literal fulfillment of all he graphic prophesies about the Lord's terrible Day of wrath.  That Day is also the Day the Lord heals our wounds, that is: removes our iniquities and brings redemption to all of His people.

Re Revelation: I do agree with most of Marcus' precis. However his separation of Israel and the church is wrong and is a tenet of the rapture to heaven belief. Both wrong and unfortunately lead people into not understanding the great blessing God does have for those who keep their faith in the testing times ahead.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

5 hours ago, Keras said:

Just to clarify: Marcus prefers to not read the first part of Isaiah 30:26 literally.

Just to clarify: keras prefers to not read the second part of Isaiah as applied to the first.

The sun shines brightly on the day God heals those whom He has inflicted.  Those inflictions happen during the time of His Wrath.  The time of healing is afterward.

"Seven times" is poetic, figurative speech.  Numbers in Hebrew literature carry connotation; they are not scientifically inclined to be mathematically correct.  "Seven" is a Godly number demonstrating holiness.

Hosea 6:1-2 Come, let us return to the Lord.
For He has torn us, but He will heal us;
He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.
He will revive us after two days;
He will raise us up on the third day,
That we may live before Him.

Zechariah 8:20-23 Thus says the Lord of hosts, It will yet be that peoples will come, even the inhabitants of many cities. The inhabitants of one will go to another, saying, Let us go at once to entreat the favor of the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts; I will also go. So many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the Lord. Thus says the Lord of hosts, In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.

Isaiah chapter 4: For seven women will take hold of one man in that day, saying, We will eat our own bread and wear our own clothes, only let us be called by your name; take away our reproach!
In that day the Branch of the Lord will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth will be the pride and the adornment of the survivors of Israel. It will come about that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy everyone who is recorded for life in Jerusalem. When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and purged the bloodshed of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and the spirit of burning, then the Lord will create over the whole area of Mount Zion and over her assemblies a cloud by day, even smoke, and the brightness of a flaming fire by night; for over all the glory will be a canopy. There will be a shelter to give shade from the heat by day, and refuge and protection from the storm and the rain.

We of the Elect, of the Church, are not to suffer God's Wrath.

1Th 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

1Th 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

[Keras]

How do Revelation 3:10 and 1 Thessalonians 5:9 say we are to be ‘kept from the hour of trial’ and ‘not destined for retribution’?

They are in the context of: Hold on to what you have, [your faith] let no one rob you of your crown. [your reward]  Keep sober, armed with faith and love…..continue to encourage one another.

When we examine the Greek word ‘peirasmos’, translated as ‘trial’ in Rev. 3, we see it doesn’t match with ‘thlipsis’, used in Matthew 24:21; which refers to the Great Tribulation.   1 Thess. 5 is in the context of a sudden destruction the Lord is going to send upon the ungodly peoples.  We should not be in the dark about it, knowing what it will be and be prepared for it, spiritually and physically.

 

For those who stand firm in faith and love, there are two possibilities.  One is a rapture removal to heaven, the other is the Lord’s protection during that time of trouble.

I discount the rapture because such a thing as a general removal of the Lord’s people has never happened before, the Israelites and now Christians have always had to face attacks, persecution and disasters. God doesn’t change, Malachi 3:6, and what happened in the past was symbolic and examples for us, upon whom the end of the age is coming: 1 Corinthians 10:6   Besides the fact that a mass rapture to heaven in the end times, is nowhere prophesied or found in the Bible.

Protection does have a precedent; the three men in the furnace, Daniel 3:19-27 But scriptures like Psalms 23 and Isaiah 43:2 ….walk thru fire and you will not be scorched….  plus over 30 other prophesies assure Christians of safety and protection through what is to come. Jesus prayed for this in John 17:15 and promises like; Zephaniah 2:3, 2 Peter 2:9, Psalms 91:1-16, Jeremiah 17:7-8, Isaiah 26:20 are a great comfort and support when trouble strikes.

It’s simple, really; we are plainly told what to do on the terrible Day of the Lord: Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

 

[iamlamad]

On 1/22/2017 at 4:46 PM, Abdicate said:

A few million in my thinking... easy-believeism has provided a false sense of who is Christian. Only those found worthy will escape as Jesus said, and if they pray so. I also believe there are multiple raptures, that's why there's no agreement. Just my two cents.

I think we will all be surprised. I believe close to 50% of the world population will suddenly disappear. It will be all those who are "in Christ," plus all the children under the age of accountability.

Edited February 5, 2017 by iamlamad