Eve ate first

[Guest suzie]

Respectfully Godman, I was giving you the  source of the previous post --it was clarifying Greek thought. The Greek's would understand the headship to be source of. It wasnt about teaching philosophy. Paul was teaching a Greek people and using what would be understood and common to them.  It isnt about Paul at all.  

Titus 2:5 and 1Peter 3:1?  This text is also mirrored in Ephesians 5:21-28 as well as Colossians 3:18  

This is speaking about submission or being subject.  Paul is dealing with  household codes during the Roman Empire. Paul borrowed from the Greco-Roman writings of how the leader (male) of the household should deal with its members. These discussions break down into husband-wife; father-child; and master-slave relationships.  In Ephesians, the word "submit" is not actually in verse 21, but must be supplied from the previous verse(21) enjoining all Christians to submit to one another.  This actually would be understood as a radical break from the traditional patriarchial households of that day. The wife would not need to be told to submit, for this was already deeply established within the framework of that day's household.  Instead the reference to submit for wives-as well as all believers-is based on freedom and not authority. The submission "as to the Lord" is not the same type as expected by cultural norms or forced upon her as seen as inferior by Jewish and Greek cultures.  It is a self-giving motivation based on being a disciple of the Lord. The duties are reciprocal however. Most household codes of this day addressed only the leader of the household instructing him on how to govern the other members. Instead, Paul speaks first to the woman, children and slaves omitting any referance on how to govern, instead he calls on him to love his wife, be restrained in disciplining  his children, and treat slaves as equal before God.Whatever submitting a wife is to do, the husband is to do the same.  Again the issue is not of authority, but love.  When we are joined together as husband and wife as "one flesh" we attain a unique relationship that has none like it on earth. When we are seeking out God in this relationship, it isnt a matter of leader or authority, but submission to God. He is to be the authority and leader.

[Ovedya]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, Suzie.  But not 100%.  The clear order in the Bible with regards to the household is that the husband is the head.  This is not compromising the unity of husband and wife, but giving a clear divine order and structure to the household.  God works in a clear, concise, and orderly way, not in the way of confusion or disorder.  In this we clearly are at odds.  But I am satisfied at this point to respecfully part ways and agree to disagree. :lightbulb:

[Guest suzie]

God man, I understand this is a deeply divided issue within denominations as well as between denominations.  It has cultural, traditional and pride at its roots in addition to Biblical verse. It was one that I was confronted with at one time.  It had previously never been an issue, for my husband and I share leadership within our home and the issue of authority has never been an issue. I am at a loss to see how when God is the head of a household there needs to be any earthly one.  It may be more difficult to pray earnestly for decisions and there have been times when neither my husband nor myself got "our way" and God showed us another plan altogether.  But in all our years it never occurred to us that he was to get a final say or I was because somehow God commanded that.  I have never seen throughout the course of Scripture this command by God. But each couple has to work this through on their own and will also be accountable for the way they did work this out.

This issue transpires beyond the household to the church however. This gets muddy because as I said, the ones who think they are supposed to be the leaders set the rules for the rest of the church ministries.  "you can do this but not that" That made me very uncomfortable.  So I began a quest to search out what the Scriptures were saying about this very issue.  I researched both sides of the issue. I know there are actually 3 stands on this subject. They all have biblical support for their stand, they all I am sure are Christians who are truly attempting to seek out God's will.  I came to my conclusion based on what I researched that flowed in harmony most with Scripture and the Gospel message. I have written a paper myself on this subject.

There were many who used Scriptural basis to continue to own slaves....although  today we would be appalled at such a stand. Although think it is the most "popular" thinking in the fundamental christian realm, I would like however for both sides of the issue to come together and seek to resolve the differences by patient investigation and dialogue, deeper Biblical study of evidence and weighing the merits of divergent viewpoints. Wouldnt that be nice?

[Rosanne]

Let us take notice of the fact that God held Eve accountable for allowing herself to be deceived.