Could the antichrist be a Muslim

[Diaste]

On 5/25/2017 at 3:05 PM, HAZARD said:

You don't think I have read one of them???  H'mmmm, And from where did I copy and past anything> And I have read and checked every Scripture, not only on this thread, but every Scripture I quote out of the Bible on every thread I post in.

To understand any doctrine it helps get every single Scripture regarding the entire subject being studied, not just one or two, and then put ones' own personal idea on what is being discussed, and if you disagree start throwing accusations at posters. As is I would not have read one of the Scriptures I posted.

Your free to believe whatever you like, but accusations freely thrown about gets you no where. 

Placing personal ideas on scripture is incorrect. That's false prophecy.

 Everyone writes in a unique manner. Its as distinctive as fingerprints and reflects an individuals personality.

The point  I was making concerns the individual search for truth, avoiding group think. I was brought up on Pretrib through Lindsey. For many years I believed what He said. Even so I couldn't reconcile many things I read in scripture with Lindsey's doctrine. So I turned to the only One who knows the truth, Almighty God and His book. I'm simply encouraging you to do the same from the perspective of one who walked in your shoes.

In conclusion, stop following the wolves in sheep's clothing and start searching for the truth from God, for yourself. 

[Diaste]

On 5/25/2017 at 7:33 PM, iamlamad said:

Here we agree: there is a difference between persecution and God's wrath. However, a careful study of Revelation will show that while Satan's wrath is at its peak with persecution and the martyring of saints, God will pour out the vials of His wrath, so they will both be happening together: Satan's wrath and God's wrath together. No wonder Jesus said there never was and never will again be days such as these.

We probably disagree on what will be the "second" coming. He already came once, so the next coming will be the 2nd coming. It will be pretrib and will be when Christ comes FOR His church. It will take place before the 6th seal, which John tells us will be the start of the Day of His wrath. The truth is, ANYONE left on the earth at the 7th seal that will begin the 70th week of Daniel, will be in God's wrath. And His wrath will build as the days go one and no one repents.

I'm convinced the 70th week begins when the first seal opens, at the time the deadly head wound is healed. This allows the beast to come to power through Satan's influence, as it is written, and go forth to conquer. 

The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are not consecutive. Seals open when trumpets blow and the bowls are poured out at the 7th seal and 7th trumpet when the "It is finished."

The one and only gathering of the saints occurs just before the wrath of God is poured out and immediately following the shortened 'great tribulation'.  The wrath of God only comes when Jesus returns and that is well after the A of D, and Jesus return begins the wrath of God therefore, Gods wrath is not being poured during great tribulation.

 

            

[iamlamad]

27 minutes ago, Diaste said:

The passage in question: 

Luke 21

²⁵ “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.²⁶ People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. ²⁷ At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.²⁸ When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

From the above verse only when the signs occur AND Jesus comes in the clouds, and everyone sees Him, is our redemption near. Not before nor after. The above is clear and irrefutable fact of when and how our redemption comes. Pretrib is unable to cite evidence such as the above to prove two separate 2nd comings of Christ. This is the one and only 2nd coming of Jesus and parallels the description of Jesus coming in Rev 19:

¹¹ I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. ¹² His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns.He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. ¹³ He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.¹⁴ The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. ¹⁵ Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”^[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

 The above passage is the full description of Jesus statement in Luke 21, "...they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." It is not a post 2nd coming appearance.

Indeed, this will be His 3rd coming. You are missing the context. The Olivet Discourse (of which this passage is a part)  was Jesus answering questions of JEWISH MEN that had asked Him about the end of their age. The end of THEIR age is the 70th week of Daniel.  Daniel said it was for HIS PEOPLE.  This passage is not speaking to the church. You are taking a very meant for the Jews and wrongly applying it to the church. When Jesus comes for His church He will be hidden in a cloud. That coming does not fit this coming where "every eye" will see Him.  If you can find the church in this discourse, either in Matthew or Luke, show us the verses you believe pertain to the church.

²⁹ He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees.³⁰ When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. ³¹ Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

³² “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. ³³ Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

³⁴ “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. ³⁵ For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. ³⁶ Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

Now here Jesus says, "...escape ALL that is about to happen..." I think we can see what "ALL' means here. The issue comes with this, "...ESCAPE all that is about to happen..." What is that 'escape'? Its certainly not described here, nor anywhere else I know of. Pretrib demands a pre-2nd coming to solve the issue.  Escape in this passage simply means to 'flee'. This look much more like individual action to avoid certain circumstances and has no connotation of either a gathering or a catching away. 

Some of the Olivet discourse is in chronological order, but some is not. In verse 29 above, He ends the chronology of His end time events and starts talking about the signs people can see to know the end is near. This part of the passage relates to both Jew and the church, for anyone can read this and apply it. I think WE are part of "this generation." For a correct meaning of "all" we should compare Matthew, Mark and Luke.  Notice He said, "and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap." What day? He is talking about the Day of his wrath and the SUDDENNESS of its coming, with no warning. Paul tells us the same thing: the SUDDENLY in 1 Thes. 4 & 5 will be His pretrib coming - with no warning. Then the raising of the dead in Christ that will cause the worldwide earthquake of the 6th seal which is Paul's "sudden destruction." Paul said that NO ONE would or could escape.  But he also wrote that those "in Christ" WOULD escape by way of rapture. 

Pretrib also avoids the previous to the 'escape' verse. Luke 21:35, "For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth." Now either this verse is not true or Jesus lied and certain groups know much more that the God of heaven. Its coming on ALL those ALIVE on the WHOLE earth. There is no early exit.

Compare how the Bride of Christ escapes to those left behind from which there is NO escape:

1 Thes. 5:² For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. ³ For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. ⁴ But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. ⁵ You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. ⁶ Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. ⁷ For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. ⁸ But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. ⁹ For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, ¹⁰ who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

One key to understanding Paul is that last phrase, "we should live together with Him." It is VERY CLOSE in meaning to "so shall we ever be with the Lord." So HOW will those "in Christ" "ever be with the Lord?" How shall they get to "live together with Him." The contest of these two chapters, 4 and 5, is the RAPTURE - the catching up. While (at the same time) those living in darkness get the sudden destruction of the worldwide earthquake, those "in Christ" get raptured so then get to live together with Him.  When you wrote: "For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth." It is most certainly true, but it does NOT PERTAIN to those "in Christ" for we get "salvation" [rapture] and "get to live together with Him."

All scripture in the New Testament is NOT POINTED at the church.  Some is about the Jews, some is about the church, and some is about the nations.  To take a verse that is meant to apply to the Jews and try to fit it to the church only brings confusion.

[iamlamad]

4 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I'm convinced the 70th week begins when the first seal opens, at the time the deadly head wound is healed. This allows the beast to come to power through Satan's influence, as it is written, and go forth to conquer. 

The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are not consecutive. Seals open when trumpets blow and the bowls are poured out at the 7th seal and 7th trumpet when the "It is finished."

The one and only gathering of the saints occurs just before the wrath of God is poured out and immediately following the shortened 'great tribulation'.  The wrath of God only comes when Jesus returns and that is well after the A of D, and Jesus return begins the wrath of God therefore, Gods wrath is not being poured during great tribulation.           

This just shows that you don't understand the intent of the Author in chapters 4 & 5, where Jesus is showing us the TIMING of the first seals. Did you just read over 5:1-7 and not understand the intent of the Author? Notice that John watched a search being made for one worthy to break the seals, but NO MAN was found. Yet, later JESUS was found. What is this showing us? When NO MAN was found, Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. But between these two (or more)  searches something changed. What? TIME changed and Jesus rose from the dead. He was immediately found worthy to break the seals. And John then saw the moment He ascended into heaven after rising from the dead. Remember, He told Mary that He had not yet ascended. So the timing here is right after He spoke to Mary. 

You try to force seal #1 into OUR future, when in reality is was around 32 AD when Jesus broke those first seals. Seal 1 is the CHURCH taking the gospel to the nations. Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel - but God limited him to only one fourth of the earth - that one fourth centered on Jerusalem where the church began.

Seal five is the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE. Seal 6 is the start of judgment AFTER the rapture. It is the start of the Day of the Lord.

[HAZARD]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Placing personal ideas on scripture is incorrect. That's false prophecy.

 Everyone writes in a unique manner. Its as distinctive as fingerprints and reflects an individuals personality.

The point  I was making concerns the individual search for truth, avoiding group think. I was brought up on Pretrib through Lindsey. For many years I believed what He said. Even so I couldn't reconcile many things I read in scripture with Lindsey's doctrine. So I turned to the only One who knows the truth, Almighty God and His book. I'm simply encouraging you to do the same from the perspective of one who walked in your shoes.

In conclusion, stop following the wolves in sheep's clothing and start searching for the truth from God, for yourself. 

I'm not placing any personal ideas on anything. I have no personal ideas on God's Word, never have and never will. What I post comes straight from the Word of God, other than that I know nothing. Whenever I find myself the victim of other peoples smallness, insecurities, false accusations, I remind myself, Things could be worse. I could be one of them.

Instead of accusing another of following wolves in sheep's clothing, you would be better off concentrating on your own personal study of the Word.

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, HAZARD said:

I'm not placing any personal ideas on anything. I have no personal ideas on God's Word, never have and never will. What I post comes straight from the Word of God, other than that I know nothing. Whenever I find myself the victim of other peoples smallness, insecurities, false accusations, I remind myself, Things could be worse. I could be one of them.

Instead of accusing another of following wolves in sheep's clothing, you would be better off concentrating on your own personal study of the Word.

But I have done so as I said earlier. An in depth study of the end of the age from the scriptures led me out of the false doctrine of pretrib and to the terrible and wonderful truth of what God says. What I suspect you mean when you say, "What I post comes straight from the Word of God." is that you post the verses or fragments of verses that best fit the ideology you like. 

And I'm not accusing, I'm stating fact. I used to follow the same pretrib doctrine you believe. I read several highly touted authors on the subject and totally believed it. Until I started checking the scriptures for myself. Until I started reading all the relevant scriptures. Until I read the entire relevant passages as well as relevant chapters. That's when I noticed the manipulation of the authors through teaching only carefully selected verses or fragments. That's not truth; it's a lie from wolves masquerading as sheep.

It's a hard thing to sympathize with your idea of me being an accuser when you say things like, "I find myself the victim of other peoples smallness, insecurities, false accusations, I remind myself, Things could be worse. I could be one of them."  Your words say you are just like the thing you decry.

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I'll go point by point.

 

This just shows that you don't understand the intent of the Author in chapters 4 & 5, where Jesus is showing us the TIMING of the first seals. I see no suggestion of the timing you are referring to in these two chapters. Do you have any evidence to back up this claim? Rhetoric is not going to cut it, you have to have scriptures of proof. 

Did you just read over 5:1-7 and not understand the intent of the Author?  The intent is to show no man is worthy but Jesus. Jesus is not a man, he is God, always was and always will be. You miss the intent. 

Notice that John watched a search being made for one worthy to break the seals, but NO MAN was found. Yet, later JESUS was found. Later? What later? There is nothing in the text that suggests a later time. The text reads, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed." There is no later date or search. Jesus overcame and did not come from the earth or under the earth, where the initial search was conducted, because he ascended to heaven some 60 years earlier; more on this later.  What is this showing us? When NO MAN was found, Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. What in the text suggests this? Nothing. You are adding what is not there. 

But between these two (or more)  searches something changed. Only one search is mentioned in the text, "But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it." There was no second, third or any other search in this context in Ch. 5. 

 What? TIME changed and Jesus rose from the dead. He was immediately found worthy to break the seals. And John then saw the moment He ascended into heaven after rising from the dead. Remember, He told Mary that He had not yet ascended. So the timing here is right after He spoke to Mary.  Here is where you miss the truth entirely. Your contention that John saw the moment Jesus ascended right after He spoke to Mary is incorrect. The vision of Revelation is occurring in real time around 90 AD. The text says, Rev 1:9 "I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos... " John was exiled to Patmos and he must have been around 85 or 90 years of age when he received the vision. There is no way John saw the moment Jesus ascended to heaven because the Revelation vision is happening in real time and is coming from Jesus, in real time with Jesus already in Heaven. Do you see that? Jesus ascended some 60 years before John was exiled and received the vision from the same Jesus, already in heaven. Don't believe me? Maybe the text will help.

Rev 1

"13 and among the lamp-stands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars,and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."

As you can see from this Jesus is fully glorified and in heaven in Rev Ch. 1. He was not on earth until the events of Ch. 5, and the events of Ch. 5 do not occur in 32 AD, but in 90 AD. So are you really going to defend you take on the timing here? You can't have it both ways. Remember, the Revelation vision is occurring as John experienced it in 90 AD so either Jesus ascended in 32 AD and that's when John received the vision, or John received the vision in 90 AD and that's when Jesus ascended. Of course neither is true.

You try to force seal #1 into OUR future, when in reality is was around 32 AD when Jesus broke those first seals. Seal 1 is the CHURCH taking the gospel to the nations. Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel - but God limited him to only one fourth of the earth - that one fourth centered on Jerusalem where the church began.

So you are saying that Jesus opened the 1st seal before the prophecy was given to John in 90 AD? The first seal is the rise of the beast. The gospel is never likened to a conqueror with a crown and a bow astride a white horse. The Gospel is called Truth, Good News, of Jesus, the Word, but never a conqueror. 

Seal five is the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE. Seal 6 is the start of judgment AFTER the rapture. It is the start of the Day of the Lord.

Therefore the 1st seal is yet to come...right when the Islamic beast is beheaded and healed through the power of Satan.

 

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

  14 hours ago, Diaste said:

Indeed, this will be His 3rd coming. You are missing the context. The Olivet Discourse (of which this passage is a part)  was Jesus answering questions of JEWISH MEN that had asked Him about the end of their age. The end of THEIR age is the 70th week of Daniel.  Daniel said it was for HIS PEOPLE.  This passage is not speaking to the church. You are taking a very meant for the Jews and wrongly applying it to the church. When Jesus comes for His church He will be hidden in a cloud. That coming does not fit this coming where "every eye" will see Him.  If you can find the church in this discourse, either in Matthew or Luke, show us the verses you believe pertain to the church.

Replacement theology? Your kidding, right? You need to get a clue.  Hidden in a cloud? LOL!  The whole bible pertains to Gods people. Every word. There is no Jew or Gentile, all are one in Christ. That you don't understand that means you don't know the truth.  Ruth, Rahab, Namman all Gentiles, all saved by grace, long before Jesus died and was resurrected. Even David was saved by Grace. Abraham was saved by Faith long before the Jews existed. Jacob, a grandson of Abraham, was the father of the 12 tribes. That you think grace only exists in the NT for the 'church' means your understanding of the things of God is immature.

Ezekiel 18

27 “Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.

28 “Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Isaiah 55

7 Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return to the Lord, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God,

For He will abundantly pardon.

And many other scriptures.

Some of the Olivet discourse is in chronological order, but some is not. In verse 29 above, He ends the chronology of His end time events and starts talking about the signs people can see to know the end is near. This part of the passage relates to both Jew and the church, for anyone can read this and apply it. I think WE are part of "this generation." For a correct meaning of "all" we should compare Matthew, Mark and Luke.  Notice He said, "and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap." What day? He is talking about the Day of his wrath and the SUDDENNESS of its coming, with no warning. Paul tells us the same thing: the SUDDENLY in 1 Thes. 4 & 5 will be His pretrib coming - with no warning. Then the raising of the dead in Christ that will cause the worldwide earthquake of the 6th seal which is Paul's "sudden destruction." Paul said that NO ONE would or could escape.  But he also wrote that those "in Christ" WOULD escape by way of rapture. 

 

Pretrib also avoids the previous to the 'escape' verse. Luke 21:35, "For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth." Now either this verse is not true or Jesus lied and certain groups know much more that the God of heaven. Its coming on ALL those ALIVE on the WHOLE earth. There is no early exit.

Compare how the Bride of Christ escapes to those left behind from which there is NO escape:

1 Thes. 5:² For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. ³ For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. ⁴ But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. ⁵ You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. ⁶ Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. ⁷ For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. ⁸ But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. ⁹ For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, ¹⁰ who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

This is talking about the faithful escaping the wrath of God, not the persecution of great tribulation. This speaks to the unbelieving being unaware of the times and not ready for the coming of the Lord; in contrast to the watchful believers who are awake and ready. But again, it's not about escaping great tribulation, but the wrath of God.

 

 

[HAZARD]

Diaste, during your in depth study of the end of the age from the scriptures, you must have missed these, or twisted them to suite your personal ideas and interpretation on this doctrine.

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them. Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of, Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,” Luke 21:34-36. These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture.

Luke 21:34-36,  v.34, And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
    v. 35, For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
    v. 36, Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

John 14:1-3, v. 1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
    v. 2, In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
    v. 3, And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present them blameless before God the Father, John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16, 17.

1 Thess. 3:13, To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thess. 4:16, For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thess. 4:17,  17, Then we which are alive and remain SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.

The Rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to the Earth, for they, the saints come back with Him at that time. At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, ( 1 Thess. 4:17), or Earthly Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air. 

 There is a simple key to the book of Revelation that makes the whole book simple to understand by all alike. This key is found in Revelation 1:19 and 4:1.
The book is in three clearly defined divisions:

First, "the things which thou hast seen," that is the visions of Christ, as in Rev. 1.

Second, "the things which are," that is, the things concerning the churches, as in Rev. 2-3.

Third. "the things which shall be hereafter," that is, after the churches, as in Rev. 4-22.

To prove that everything of Revelation, from the fourth chapter on, must be after the churches, in Rev. 4:1 after he had written the vision of Christ in chapter one and the things concerning the churches in chapters two and three, John was caught up to Heaven and was told that he was to see the things which must be hereafter, that is, after the churches. If the things of Rev. 4:1 through the rest of the book must be after the churches, then they must be fulfilled after the churches and not during the time of the churches. This is proof that the rapture of the church must take place before the fulfilment of everything in Rev. 4-22. If we will take literally and consecutively the events of these chapters and believe that they will happen after the rapture of the church, nothing in the book will be hard to understand.

.  

 

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

23 hours ago, iamlamad said:

  14 hours ago, Diaste said:

Indeed, this will be His 3rd coming. You are missing the context.... If you can find the church in this discourse, either in Matthew or Luke, show us the verses you believe pertain to the church.

Replacement theology? Your kidding, right? You need to get a clue.  Hidden in a cloud? LOL!  The whole bible pertains to Gods people. Every word. There is no Jew or Gentile, all are one in Christ. That you don't understand that means you don't know the truth.  Ruth, Rahab, Namman all Gentiles, all saved by grace, long before Jesus died and was resurrected. Even David was saved by Grace. Abraham was saved by Faith long before the Jews existed. Jacob, a grandson of Abraham, was the father of the 12 tribes. That you think grace only exists in the NT for the 'church' means your understanding of the things of God is immature.

What? Did you just overlook what is written? If we meet Him in the clouds, then HE is in the clouds.  There most certainly IS Jew and Gentile, for all in the world are NOT IN CHRIST. Only for those "In Christ" can we say there is no longer Jew or Gentile.

1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Ezekiel 18

27 “Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.

28 “Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Isaiah 55

7 Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return to the Lord, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God,

For He will abundantly pardon.

And many other scriptures.

Some of the Olivet discourse is in chronological order, but some is not. In verse 29 above, He ends the chronology of His end time events and starts talking about the signs people can see to know the end is near. This part of the passage relates to both Jew and the church, for anyone can read this and apply it. I think WE are part of "this generation." For a correct meaning of "all" we should compare Matthew, Mark and Luke.  Notice He said, "and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap." What day? He is talking about the Day of his wrath and the SUDDENNESS of its coming, with no warning. Paul tells us the same thing: the SUDDENLY in 1 Thes. 4 & 5 will be His pretrib coming - with no warning. Then the raising of the dead in Christ that will cause the worldwide earthquake of the 6th seal which is Paul's "sudden destruction." Paul said that NO ONE would or could escape.  But he also wrote that those "in Christ" WOULD escape by way of rapture. 

 

Pretrib also avoids the previous to the 'escape' verse. Luke 21:35, "For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth." Now either this verse is not true or Jesus lied and certain groups know much more that the God of heaven. Its coming on ALL those ALIVE on the WHOLE earth. There is no early exit.

Compare how the Bride of Christ escapes to those left behind from which there is NO escape:

1 Thes. 5:² For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. ³ For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. ⁴ But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. ⁵ You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. ⁶ Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. ⁷ For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. ⁸ But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. ⁹ For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, ¹⁰ who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

This is talking about the faithful escaping the wrath of God, not the persecution of great tribulation. This speaks to the unbelieving being unaware of the times and not ready for the coming of the Lord; in contrast to the watchful believers who are awake and ready. But again, it's not about escaping great tribulation, but the wrath of God.

I guess you have overlooked the fact that God's wrath begins with the trumpets and continues on through the entire 70th week. His wrath in the vials comes when the great tribulation is at its peak. We (those that are in Christ and ready) will most certainly escape His wrath in the trumpets and His wrath in the vials. WE WON'T BE HERE! You should go and study 1 Thes. 5 until you get this.